Throw as defense

[RipClaw]

One of my players had an interesting idea today: use the throw maneuver as defense. The rules are not quite clear though, or my English lacks.


Can you counter an attack with a throw? That is, use it like a parry and if extra successes remain the original attacker is thrown? What if the attempt is not working, do the successes reduce the attacker's at all?


I think it is convincing if you allow to counter unarmed attacks this way, but if you are confronted with a weapon of more than a dagger's length it shouldn't be allowed without a stunt.

 

[memesis]

One of my players had an interesting idea today: use the throw maneuver as defense. The rules are not quite clear though, or my English lacks.
Can you counter an attack with a throw? That is, use it like a parry and if extra successes remain the original attacker is thrown? What if the attempt is not working, do the successes reduce the attacker's at all?


I think it is convincing if you allow to counter unarmed attacks this way, but if you are confronted with a weapon of more than a dagger's length it shouldn't be allowed without a stunt.

You can use throwable weapons in hand-to-hand with the better of your Melee or Thrown.  You may presumably parry at range using a stunt, but only a stunt.  In either case the rules are just like usual.

 

[MOK]

This might seem weird, but...


I can imagine multiple parries to be possible against a single attack, with thrown.  Like throwing a stream of chakram at a falling axe, each plink pattering it backwards a bit.


This would change a few aspects of the game however, and I have not persued the throught further.

 

[shifty]

This might seem weird, but...
I can imagine multiple parries to be possible against a single attack, with thrown.  Like throwing a stream of chakram at a falling axe, each plink pattering it backwards a bit.


This would change a few aspects of the game however, and I have not persued the throught further.

Not if you just ruled it as a stunt and made the roll as all one parry roll.  If you can deflect arrows with a sword, why not?  Ofcourse, in a nod to physics I'd make it a -1 success penalty to represent how hard it could be.

 

[Jakk Bey]

If it's used as a Stunt, all power to the player. Heck, Stunt the sucker into both an attack and parry roll.  Chakram or blade slings the weapon back into his attacker due to its accuracy and the skill of the character to hit the weapon at the pivot point, or the sai, jitte or parrying weapon is thrown to carry the weapon not only back but into the wee haid of the attacker. Makes a nice bit of business against an Extra.

 

[RipClaw]

One of my players had an interesting idea today: use the throw maneuver as defense. The rules are not quite clear though, or my English lacks.
Can you counter an attack with a throw? That is, use it like a parry and if extra successes remain the original attacker is thrown? What if the attempt is not working, do the successes reduce the attacker's at all?


I think it is convincing if you allow to counter unarmed attacks this way, but if you are confronted with a weapon of more than a dagger's length it shouldn't be allowed without a stunt.

I didn't make myself clear: I'm not talking of the Thrown ability but of the wrestling maneuver throw, where the opponent is hurled through the air by his own momentum.

 

[MOK]

Well, I have contention with the idea of "go for it" in terms of multiple parries against a single attack with thrown.  Now, it makes sense thematically, ala the example I gave, but once a player learns this is possible, it is quickly game breaking once it is learned to be repeated.  So even tho it makes sense to me, I think it should be illegal.  =op  


.... Or you could just call it a single parry despite the description.  *shrug*

 

[RipClaw]

I'd be grateful if you could stop discussing the possibility of parrying with a thrown weapon via the ability thrown.


I'm talking about parrying an attack via the throw maneuver and the Martial Arts or Brawl ability.


What I have figured this far with my troupe is that:


-you can parry an unarmed attack or an attack using a weapon no longer than a knife with a throw (that is throwing the attacker, think of judo or aikido)


-if you have more successes parrying this way than the attacker your net successes are used as your throw-successes


-if you don't have enough successes only half your successes count towards avoiding the attack, making a throw almost an all-or-nothing atempt


-it is not possible to parry with a throw more than once a turn, so there is no such thing a a "full throw", if you have to avoid many attacks use full dodge instead

 

[Jakk Bey]

Rip--Actually, if you want to get technical, bujitsu forms were developed with techniques for disarming, and often with throws for long weaons--that was the point for most, since those forms were by in large developed for samurai who were not only unhorsed, but on the battlefield without a weapon, and they needed to get one, fast.


Staff, naginata, spear, and sword were all open for these kinds of manuevers, it's a matter of timing, and skill.  Long weapons like spears, lance, staff were very popular for this sort of thing, because of the high ratio of non-pointy, non-bladed area--and there were entire portions of training dedicated against even mounted opponents to deflect lance and spear into the ground, to use that as the pivot, not only to deflect the attack away from skewering you, but also sailing your opponent into the air, unhorsing at the same time as disarming an opponent.


Once again, I point to WoD: Combat, because the Big Book of Beating Ass did an excellent job of covering just such things, in a d10 fashion, if you want to get a little crunchier in combat, but otherwise, I would simply cover throws as parries as Stunts.


Make a normal parry, but convert successes into a Bashing attack as a result. Make the player describe the whole thing, and if they don't get creative, don't allow it.  Take it as a unique moment for each attempt--say, your boy is surrounded by spearmen, and one makes his move, the haft is caught, and the attacker is not only flung away, but the character who is the center of the mass then uses that poor sod as a "found weapon" in clearing a little bit of space with the throw, not just throwing him, but swinging him in an arc that acts as a parry against others.  


Your boy is confronted by a swordsman, and instead of blocking, the character turns to avoid the strike, extends a foot to trip, and completes his turn to strike the swordsman from behind, sending him sprawling.


An ax is falling towards your boy's wee haid, and the character steps just a hair to the side, drives a kick down to force the axe down much faster than the opponent was expecting, which launches them forward into your boy's hands which complete the throw and send him sailing.


Swordsman makes a thrust, his sleeve is caught by our boy, and that is used to draw him forward, and off balance, driving his blade into the ground, and then our boy is flipped neatly into the other two that are rushing in.


There have been several great moments in martial arts films that demonstrate that kind of stunt. I would step away from creating a raft of new rules to handle the situation, and instead concentrate on just using Stunts to cover them.

 

[DarkProphet]

I'd be grateful if you could stop discussing the possibility of parrying with a thrown weapon via the ability thrown.
I'm talking about parrying an attack via the throw maneuver and the Martial Arts or Brawl ability.


What I have figured this far with my troupe is that:


-you can parry an unarmed attack or an attack using a weapon no longer than a knife with a throw (that is throwing the attacker, think of judo or aikido)


-if you have more successes parrying this way than the attacker your net successes are used as your throw-successes


-if you don't have enough successes only half your successes count towards avoiding the attack, making a throw almost an all-or-nothing atempt


-it is not possible to parry with a throw more than once a turn, so there is no such thing a a "full throw", if you have to avoid many attacks use full dodge instead

I think, RipClaw, that it might help un-confuse things if you used a different way of describing it as "the ability throw" considering that what the rest of them were talking about (using chakrams or some other throwing weapon to parry/defend) *is* using the ability throw to defend... or (in better english.. I know your english isn't great so no offense meant) the throw ability.  When I read your original post I, too, thought you were asking about using a throwing weapon to defend.  You really should have clarified that you meant defending yourself by tossing your opponent or at least mentioned 'throwing' as it pertains to a grapple or clinch.

 

[DarkProphet]

hrm... well.  Looking back on what you wrote, I'm not sure about it.  Perhaps as a stunt or if it were made into a charm.  If I remember correctly, in order to realliy toss your enemy, you'd have to have them in a successful clinch/grapple and someone who's being clinched/grappled can't do anything but attempt escape so they'd not even have an attack to begin with.


Without a stunt or charm and without really sitting down to really think every nook and cranny of it, I'd say that you'd do an unarmed parry/dodge and if you succeeded, they'd be in a clinch and upon the next turn/round it becomes as such and they can either attempt an escape or you can then toss them as you see fit.


Of course, a clinch/grapple stunt or an unarmed combat charm would bypass that and make what you said possible.  


At least, that's my initial take on it.

 

[Persell]

I'd allow it but only if it were a charm. It sounds a lot like Solar Counter-attack but instead of slashing them, you are throwing them to the ground. Its actually a lot better than Solar Counter-attack as it will mess up their initiative and make them prone. If the attacker isnt within 3 feet of the defender, I would not allow a throw in this way. The reason a distance past arms reach is acceptable is because you can always sort of lunge forward to grapple them and throw them to the ground. It would have to be an attack you are aware of because you have to know where they are going with the attack so that you dont move into its path.

Name: Effortless Combat Throw
Cost: 4 Motes


Duration: Instant


Type: Reflexive


Ability: Brawl


Requirements: Brawl 4, Essence 2.


Essence guides the character's tempo, allowing her to strike when her enemy extends for an attack. The character may immediately make a takedown maneuver at her full Dexterity + Brawl dice pool against anyone executing a hand-to-hand attack against her. This attack is made after the roll to hit the counterattacking Exalted but before damage is determined. If the Efforless Combat Throw is successful, the attackers attack is negated. The subject of the Efforless Combat Throw may make a Dexterity + Athletics roll difficulty ? to be able to catch herself. If the roll fails, the subject of the Effortless Combat Throw falls prone. The Effortless Combat Throw is not an action and does not subtract from the character's dice pools or affect her action for the turn. A character can make as many Effortless Combat Throws in a turn as she can afford to pay for, but a character cannot use Effortless Combat Throw in response to Effortless Combat Throw or any other counterattack Charm.

I dont know the rules for being prone right off the top of my head, but if it doesnt include some type of hit to initiative, I would add that too.


Never once did RipClaw refer to what he was talking about as "the ability throw". He said you all were talking about "the ability throw" and RipClaw said he was actually talking about the "throw manuever". Sounds pretty clear to me. Maybe to clear this up, you should refer to it as a takedown maneuver. This really does sound a lot more like Martial Arts than Brawl. There are so many MA charms you may want to look and see if this is already made somewhere.

 

[RipClaw]

I would step away from creating a raft of new rules to handle the situation' date=' and instead concentrate on just using Stunts to cover them.[/quote']
You've got a point, but never the less even a stunt has to follow certain rules, doesn't it?

I'd allow it but only if it were a charm. It sounds a lot like Solar Counter-attack but instead of slashing them, you are throwing them to the ground. Its actually a lot better than Solar Counter-attack as it will mess up their initiative and make them prone.

Exactly. Because of these massive benefits of a mudane maneuver I wanted some input from ohter Exalted addicts. Because if I read the rules correctly a "hurling the attacker through the air"-parry is a standard wrestling maneuver that doesn't call for a stunt or anything.

It would have to be an attack you are aware of because you have to know where they are going with the attack so that you dont move into its path.

Still the question what happens if you are not able to avoid or redirect the attack completely, if you consider it a non-stunt thing.

Name: Effortless Combat Throw
Cost: 4 Motes


Duration: Instant


Type: Reflexive


Ability: Brawl


Requirements: Brawl 4, Essence 2.


Essence guides the character's tempo, allowing her to strike when her enemy extends for an attack. The character may immediately make a takedown maneuver at her full Dexterity + Brawl dice pool against anyone executing a hand-to-hand attack against her. This attack is made after the roll to hit the counterattacking Exalted but before damage is determined. If the Efforless Combat Throw is successful, the attackers attack is negated. The subject of the Efforless Combat Throw may make a Dexterity + Athletics roll difficulty 2 to be able to catch herself. If the roll fails, the subject of the Effortless Combat Throw suffers a knockdown. The Effortless Combat Throw is not an action and does not subtract from the character's dice pools or affect her action for the turn. A character can make as many Effortless Combat Throws in a turn as she can afford to pay for, but a character cannot use Effortless Combat Throw in response to Effortless Combat Throw or any other counterattack Charm.

Nice so far, I'd go with this one (I fixed the Dex + Athletics difficulty), but if you made "Crushing wave throw" a prerequisite Charm you could hurl the attackers quite a distance. Str x 10 yards horizontically, IIRC.

Never once did RipClaw refer to what he was talking about as "the ability throw". He said you all were talking about "the ability throw" and RipClaw said he was actually talking about the "throw manuever". Sounds pretty clear to me.

Thanks, that's a beer if we should ever meet in person :wink: I thought it would suffice to talk of "thorw" and not "Thrown" (notice the capitat T at the beginning and the n at the end).

 

[Jakk Bey]

Your table--but I would suggest taking a look at WoD:Combat if you're bound and determined.


One caution--Exalted is a game of high adventure. I would suggest abandoning the idea of weapons no larger than a knife, for thematic reasons. Wuxia, Anime, and HK action flick-toons are chock full of examples of folks tossing opponents with large weapons--not a great idea in real life neccessarily, but if it is possible in real life, then why limit it in a tale of High Advenutre*


In most styles, throws are counter attacks. In the standard juijitsu or aikido entry, the attacker commits and is redirected.  In game mechanics, you can call it a dodge or parry, and then follow it up with a throw. I'm not a real fan of the grappling rules for Exalted in part, because they don't reflect the process.  While, from a mechanical standpoint, the idea that the one doing the throwing gets the initiative, and acts first, throwing the poor bastiche before he can get in his attack--or recover from his throw to get back up and put a hurting on the character--works, it doesn't really cover the defensive nature of the technique.


Because of this, I will respectfully disagree with DarkDeal on the idea that throws as counters or even parries and ripostes are the material of Charms. If I can execute a throw against a fella with baseball bat, Jakk Bey, the Undefeated Tiger of the East can do a damn sight better. Charms are nice, Charms are shortcuts, and they can enhance things, and if you want a whole raft of Charms that will make a character Joe-Nage-Waza then roll on like a big wheel--but it might be easier to handle the mundane kind of counters against Extras just with Stunts. Character turns a regular parry or dodge into an attack with the same amount of dice as the counter.  I use Techniques in my Fight system for Heroic Mortals and Exalts to give folks a foundation for fleshing out the style, but usually, I just handle counter throws or punishing blocks as Stunts.


Because that's another school of parries. Not just blocking the offending limb, but attacking it. Arm comes in, and not only is the move stopped and arrested from hitting you, you attack the joint, which is standard kensetsu waza, and nothing really that special.  Arms comes in, elbow gets strained or reversed. Wrist gets broke. Shoulder is dislocated--though, most times a shoulder dislocation comes from the torque from a throw, as opposed to just striking the wrist or elbow. Look at Muay Thai, for blocking kicks you often wind up kicking the crap out of leg, same with Jeet Kun Do and several Chinese styles.


I worked out Fight to essentially give Heroic Mortals and Exalts a raft of techniques that they could use regularly, to give a better idea of how the fighter was progressing, and what their style taught, but most times, I just let the players Stunt for neat-o factors.


*Use Mako's voice here. Really, that bit in the Conan flicks is the best.  And let's face it, Mako's got style.