TV & Film The Force Awakens, Thread Will Contain Spoilers.

[Christopher Pyne MP]

So has anyone here seen Force Awakens? And if so what are your opinions on the film? I personally think its about an 8 out of 10 and I'm gonna watch it with some amigos of mine after New Years.


So yeah? What did you guys think?

 

[LegoLad659]

I enjoyed it a lot ( ) A friend of mine got some tickets for opening night, and I went with her. The movie itself was, in my opinion, fairly interesting with how they explained how Stormtroopers were made, what with all the clones dead (I assume). My friend was really upset atHan's death, but I think there's a lot more to that scene than what was just on the surface.


The only thing I didn't like about the movie was where it ended. Come on, guys, you're gonna show us the old Luke Skywalker without giving him a single line?

 

[Razzberry]

Got the

Spoiler

death of Solo

spoiled ahead of time, so I was prety much sitting waiting for that. A lot of fun throwbacks. Was hoping for it to be less silly at times though. A lot of slapstick stuff in there. But a solid 4.7/5.

 

[SkyGinge]

AMAZING I LOVE IT GOING TO SEE IT AGAIN HYPEHYPEHYPE

 

[Christopher Pyne MP]

I think it was most certainly a cocktease to have Luke there in the end there. I also believe the death of that certain character wasn't too surprising, given that H.F. hated working on the films and they basically made Rey a prodigy when it comes to fixing the Falcon.


What would you guys like to see more of in the next few movies? There is most certainly more character development and plot that can be established in the next few movies, and I'd like to know what you guys think should be focused on.

 

[cojemo]

I made it a point to go into the movie without watching any of the trailers or hearing anything about it so I wouldn't be blinded by hype, and overall I think it was a pretty good movie, about an 8/10. What I liked most about it was definitely the characters. I thought they were LEAGUES above the main cast of the previous Star Wars movies in terms of being believable and real people, especially the villain. Say what you want about Vader, but Kylo Ren is most definitely a more intriguing character and is my personal favourite.


That kind of leads into what I want to see more of in the next movies. Give me more of Kylo Ren, develop him more and give us more insight into what he's thinking. From what I've seen so far I could see the entire series focusing on him, but since that's not gonna happen just show me some more and contrast him with some of the other characters.

 

[Coward]

I'm going to be the dissenting voice and say it was basically a fanfic with a Mary Sue as the main character. Rey was actively painful to me, and I'm a pretty ardent feminist. It's embarrassing to think that it's come to this.


That said there was definitely some cool shit in there, and I think it was basically slap-bang between the prequels and originals for me. Maybe on par with Return of the Jedi.

 

[Christopher Pyne MP]

I'm going to be the dissenting voice and say it was basically a fanfic with a Mary Sue as the main character. Rey was actively painful to me, and I'm a pretty ardent feminist. It's embarrassing to think that it's come to this.
That said there was definitely some cool shit in there, and I think it was basically slap-bang between the prequels and originals for me. Maybe on par with Return of the Jedi.

Please, tell me more. I'm interested to hear more on your thought.

 

[Coward]

Oh, really? xD


Well this could get really long, I freakin' love Star Wars. My main issue is that the whole thing felt like a cynical exercise in button-pushing from the studio.


Here are the problems as I see it, and I'm aware that not everyone minds these. Huge spoilers ahead.

Spoiler

1. Rey is the second coming of Christ. This entire character and everything she touches.

• Better at Millenium Falcon mechanics and piloting than Han Solo
  
• Better at blasters than the storm trooper dude trained since birth
  
• Better at mind control and telekinesis than Kylo Ren
  
• Faster runner, better climber, smarter than everyone
  
• Has no personality.
  
• She is instantly beloved of all, including Han who once pretended to hate his own love interest for months.
  

She is pretty much the definition of a Mary Sue, and I feel like she was a cheap attempt to manipulate me and other women into thinking we'd been fairly represented. It passed the Bechdel test, so what?


2. The First Order? I haven't read much EU shit but I shouldn't really have to just to know what the hell this is. Where did they come from? What do they want? Why are they even more obviously space nazis than the Empire?


3. Death Star 3.0: This time it's a planet


4. Using ironic gags about the lack of plot as a substitute for writing a plot. e.g. 'There's always some way to blow it up' This seems to be a Marvel/Disney habit and it makes me want to punch something.


5. Kylo Ren's temper tantrums made me want to spank him. At no point was I scared of this guy.


6. I was actually glad when Han died, because it meant they couldn't dilute his character any further.


7. Voldemort replaces the Emperor as main villain. What the hell is that guy's name anyway, Snape? Snoop? He's a pussy. He didn't even punish Kylo's multiple embarrassing failures.


I could go on. Instead I'll throw in a few things I did actually enjoy for good measure.






1. A lot of cool design, and a return to form in a lot of respects.


2. Beautiful opening shot, which references the originals without being a knockoff. I think this shot may be the literal high point, with the rest representing a downward slope.


3. Lightsabers sound really beefy and look cool. I even like the crossguard thing after Finn got stabbed in the shoulder with it.


4. Finn and the pilot dude (Poe? Is that really his name?) are both fun characters and well acted. The movie should just have been about them, with a toned down version of Rey being the new Luke equivalent.


5. No comic relief retard characters. You don't need them.


6. Lady stormtrooper captain was fun and diverting, I wish they'd had the guts to do an onscreen execution of her rather than a weird comical thing (she's gonna die in that trash bin, guys).


7. Tatooine Jakku looked pretty cool.

 

[Christopher Pyne MP]

Ok, allow me to post some rebuttal dear @Coward .

Spoiler

I agree with some of your points, but I think the Millenium Falcon skills come from years of scavenging parts and learning from destroyed cruisers. I do agree with you when it comes to Han Solo and their dynamic, but I suppose they shoehorned that in to have Han's death being more dramatic. As for Rey defeating Ren, I think that stems from the fact Ren is one of probably five-ten people who can wield the force in the galaxy and probably hasn't had that much contest. While it is true she had no training, I liked it how she turned the tables on the babyfaced Sith, I appreciated that. T


Kylo Ren: I most certainly think that the temper tantrums were apart of the character, and I think he isn't meant to be as evil or as scary as Darth Vader. My interpretation of Kylo is that he's some young power hungry kid who think he has it all, but he's in way over his head. His appearance without the helmet I think helps support this, Kylo isn't some wizened warrior, he's some kid who wanted to join the cool kids for his own gain. He isn't even taken seriously by his own guys, the First Order don't like him, General Hux doesn't take his shit and argues with him, the stormtroopers don't like him, and I think the only reason Snoke (Voldermort guy), keeps him is that having a force sensitive enforcer working for him is probably cool for him. I hope we see more of him next movie and have him progress as a character.


The way I justified the First Order in my mind is that there were going to be some elements of the Galactic Empire who would never lie down and die, and formed their own government in parralell to the New Republic. I think their whole dealio is to consolidate power and use their new epic space weapons (I loved the 3rd Death Star, cool as fuck), to finally reassert themselves as rulers of the the galaxy. That being said I'm probably blinded by my love of their aesthetic.

 

[cojemo]

@Coward As someone who doesn't care much about star wars, I'd like to counter your points since I disagree with a few. Also, it's fun to have a bit of debate.

Spoiler

1. Rey is the second coming of Christ. This entire character and everything she touches.

• Better at Millenium Falcon mechanics and piloting than Han Solo
  
• Better at blasters than the storm trooper dude trained since birth
  
• Better at mind control and telekinesis than Kylo Ren
  
• Faster runner, better climber, smarter than everyone
  
• Has no personality.
  
• She is instantly beloved of all, including Han who once pretended to hate his own love interest for months.
  

She is pretty much the definition of a Mary Sue, and I feel like she was a cheap attempt to manipulate me and other women into thinking we'd been fairly represented. It passed the Bechdel test, so what?





This I agree with. She seemed needlessly Suey and thrown in their only because of the whole 'lead female protagonist' trend that's been going around lately. This did annoy me a bit, but I think most of the other characters made up for that. However, I will argue that the part with Kylo Ren is because they were trying to show that Ren wasn't actually very good with the force, not that Rey was exceptional. After all, they seem to emphasize everywhere else how incompetent Ren is at what he does, so it made sense to me.


2. The First Order? I haven't read much EU shit but I shouldn't really have to just to know what the hell this is. Where did they come from? What do they want? Why are they even more obviously space nazis than the Empire?





Did we know much about the Empire in episode 4? I don't think so. Besides, just flat out explaining things right away in a trilogy would take away from building mystery.


3. Death Star 3.0: This time it's a planet





Pretty much, but since I think the point of the First Order is that they are trying to mimic the Empire, this only makes sense to me. Doesn't mean it is't annoying.


4. Using ironic gags about the lack of plot as a substitute for writing a plot. e.g. 'There's always some way to blow it up' This seems to be a Marvel/Disney habit and it makes me want to punch something.





I don't understand this much. Seemed like enough plot to me.


5. Kylo Ren's temper tantrums made me want to spank him. At no point was I scared of this guy.





That's why I loved him so much. He's a villain trying so hard to be a villain. He even wears a helmet because he knows he doesn't look intimidating, as shown when he turns away when speaking to Snoke. I'm pretty sure the whole point of his character is that he's trying to be more like Vader but lacks everything that made him such a threat. Besides, Vader was cool while Kylo is just an amazingly written character. I'm pretty sure he'll either become more threatening in the future or realize he's doing everything for the wrong reasons and turn good.


6. I was actually glad when Han died, because it meant they couldn't dilute his character any further.





Did his character really get diluted though? I just saw it as him being older, but I guess I never really cared much about the old movies so you could be right.


7. Voldemort replaces the Emperor as main villain. What the hell is that guy's name anyway, Snape? Snoop? He's a pussy. He didn't even punish Kylo's multiple embarrassing failures.





I think it's unfair to judge him right now. Besides, who's to say he isn't going to punish Kylo? This is straight up nitpicking since we knew jack shit about Palpatine as well.

 

[Cross]

I watched it. I loved it. But some stuff bugged me too.

Spoiler

Kylo Ren is my favorite character from the movie. He's even angstier than Anakin was. Way to go Han and Leia, your kid turned out terrible. Maybe sending a child away at a young age to train in mindcontrol arts wasn't such a good idea after all. Kylo Ren is also pretty bad at his job. His temper tantrums were hilarious. Especially when those Stormtroopers turned around and walked away because they totally didn't want to get involved in that. I really want to see him bounce back from his defeat and kick ass next time around.


Because seriously the Lightsaber fight at the end of the movie was BS. Nither Finn nor Rey had shown any affinity for wielding the weapon before then. Especially Finn. At that point, he'd already lost a fight because of how awful his skills with a Lightsaber were.


But somehow they both held their own against Kylo Ren at the end. . . Yeah. Because the guy trained since he was a child is obviously going to lose to the person who discovered their Jedi powers half an hour ago. Totally. Kylo Ren was injured before the fight, and I take that into account, but still it seemed like main character plot armor kicking into effect.


Also, Kylo Ren's desire to be like Vader, while a cool motivation, is kind of. . . Well. It's interesting because we all know Vader turned from the Dark Side at the end. So, he's worshiping a false idol. xD He's still my favorite though. I love flawed characters.


On another note, Poe was a fun character. It sucked he only appeared in so little of the movie. Hopefully he gets more screen time next go around.

 

[Doomshroud]

I thought the movie was incredible, and each of the characters were written beautifully. Rey is a strong lead and one of the best characters in the film (And probably one of the best characters in the series, IMO). Kylo is an intriguing villain (with a beastmode outfit) that I look forward to seeing him in the next Sequel Trilogy movies. It was definitely one of the best movies I've seen this year.

 

[Christopher Pyne MP]

I want to hear opinions on General Hux, what were your guys opinions on him? I found him to be a more sinister villain than Kylo, the guy's like Grand Moff Tarkin if he got shit done.

 

[Doomshroud]

[QUOTE="Bullet Tooth Tony]I want to hear opinions on General Hux, what were your guys opinions on him? I found him to be a more sinister villain than Kylo, the guy's like Grand Moff Tarkin if he got shit done.

[/QUOTE]
Hux definitely reminded me of that guy that Vader force choked while saying his infamous line, "I find your lack of faith... disturbing."

 

[Doomshroud]

Hux definitely reminded me of that guy that Vader force choked while saying his infamous line, "I find your lack of faith... disturbing."

Aaand I just figured out that guy was Tarkin. I really need to go and watch the entire original trilogy.


But yeah, I was almost expecting Hux to be force choked.

 

[Christopher Pyne MP]

Aaand I just figured out that guy was Tarkin. I really need to go and watch the entire original trilogy.
But yeah, I was almost expecting Hux to be force choked.

So did I to be frank. I also thought Ren would kill the guy at the beginning (when the guy informs him they've lost the droid), but instead he lost his shit.

 

[Jennifer Shirogane]

Kind of off topic here but am I the only one that swore a solemnly oath not to watch Episodes VII-VIV (I think they announced to VIV) because of what Disney did to the Expanded Universe? I am still really mad about them declaring all those books/comics I read and games I've played non-canon. Seems like I'm the only one who did this lol.

 

[Christopher Pyne MP]

[QUOTE="Jennifer Shirogane]Kind of off topic here but am I the only one that swore a solemnly oath not to watch Episodes VII-VIV (I think they announced to VIV) because of what Disney did to the Expanded Universe? I am still really mad about them declaring all those books/comics I read and games I've played non-canon. Seems like I'm the only one who did this lol.

[/QUOTE]
I hated the EU to be frank, there was too much BS to wade through for the few diamonds in the rough to make it worth the effort. There were too many Mary Sue's and self inserts for it to be worth the read.

 

[Jennifer Shirogane]

[QUOTE="Bullet Tooth Tony]I hated the EU to be frank, there was too much BS to wade through for the few diamonds in the rough to make it worth the effort. There were too many Mary Sue's and self inserts for it to be worth the read.

[/QUOTE]
I found it fun but hey, to each his/her own.


I was expecting for like an Old Republic movie though since I thought that's what most people wanted, well from what I've heard at least.


I am looking forward to the spinoff Rogue One, since its directed by Gareth Edwards, who was behind the Legendary-produced Godzilla movie.

 

[AlphaDraco]

Literally just finished the movie and all I can really say is eh. It didn't really do it for me and I could never get invested in any of the new characters. Well, other than Poe, but there is a reason for that one. Below is the reasons why it seems to just be a mediocre movie in my opinion.

Spoiler

1. Lack of World Building: If there is one thing I like in star wars movies, its the world building. Learning how the world works and how it came to be is always fascinating to me. In fact its probably the only reason I enjoy the prequels. This movie, however, seemed to have a lack of it in contrast to the other Star Wars movies. We have no idea of how the First Order came to be or how it runs, we literally got no info on the New Republic before it was destroyed, other than it supported the resistance, and even the planet Jakku didn't really have an explanation or character behind as opposed to Tattooine. The movie could have honestly used some more quiet, conversation sections were they fleshed out the world around them. Ex: In a New Hope, one of the Imperial Officers talks of the senate being dissolved and the last traces of the Old Republic being destroyed. That gives us some pretty good insight into how the Empire was formed and immediately made me think of Space Rome, which was good. It gave me a hint at how the world came to be and how it operated.
   
2. Poor Villain: Kylo Ren... Well, to be honest, the concept that the main villain is the child of Han Solo and Leia is great, which makes it even more disappointing that they screwed it up. To sum it up, he is basically a whiny child who is not threatening in the slightest. They had him set up pretty well in the opening battle, but it just went downhill from there. His temper tantrums were just painful to watch, and you could tell it was a regular occurrence by the reactions of the troops, which I will admit, the one with the two troopers did get a laugh out of me. However, that isn't a good thing when it comes to villains. Previous Sith villains were either brilliantly manipulative, as in the Emperor, or calm and radiating a sense of power, as in Darth Vader and Darth Maul. For those who say that Kylo Ren is a good villain because he is trying hard to be a villain that he fails to be, another character has done that better, General Grievous. That character's entire premise was that he tries to stand up and be feared by his enemies and his men, even going so far as to replace most of his body with cybernetic parts. He throws tantrums when his men are incompetent and such, but he is also a coward. He will run from a fight he knows he cannot win, and this makes him a genially good character. He talks big and then runs. Comes off a lot better than how Kylo Ren did.
   
3. Finn: I'll start with the good stuff on this character first, and it is that they actually explain why he is no longer a clone. Originally I was a bit miffed that Storm Troopers were not clones like the prequel made me believe. That had made the Empire seem even more villainous and evil, having a near limitless supply of troops who would not question an order because they were programmed not to. So it was good to see that they made a nice, even more sinister thought on how they had replaced clones. They took babies from their families and indoctrinated them into becoming and unquestioning military asset. Unfortunatly, they completely throw that away on Finn’s character. On his first mission he becomes disillusioned of the First Order by the person next to him getting shot? He suddenly has bad thoughts of killing the people that he is ordered to kill? Why? He was indoctrinated since birth to be a soldier, they probably showed continuous videos of this type of stuff to him saying that they were the enemy. It is just unrealistic that he would turn that fast for that reason. On another note, once he runs away he loses any sign he used to be a Storm Trooper. Every time he cracks a joke or acts like an idiot, I’m reminded that this guy was trained from birth to be a soldier. There would be no way that he should be acting like this. Poe, on the other hand, has a reason to act the way he does and that is because he is a resistance fighter. They are ordinary people who got sick of the controlling faction and took up arms, so they could act like that.
   
4. The Third Death Star: Seriously? This is the best thing the writers could come up with. A larger more powerful Death Star. That has been done before, and better, with the Return of the Jedi. This one just feels like they were either at a loss for what would make an interesting threat or were just trying to please the fans by copying the originals. Either way, I was very disappointed by the reveal, as well as the fact that it destroyed the New Republic right off the bat. So much for world building. Plus, you will have to wonder how they are going to top a weapon that can destroy multiple planets from across the Galaxy. Seems they have written themselves into a hole with this one.
   
5. Rey (AKA: Mary Sue): Where to start with this one? Well, she has basically no flaws whatsoever. She is perfectly selfless, intelligent, athletic, and can wield the force within a half-hour time span. She is able to better wield a lightsaber than a guy who was trained by Luke Skywalker himself, as well as outperform him with the force when she has had no training whatsoever. She is able to use telekinesis and mind tricks out of nowhere when it took Luke, who is canonically the second coming of Christ, the training of Obi-Wan Kenobi and Yoda to help understand how to use the force. In the New Hope, the only sign of the force he uses is with the lightsaber training on the Millennium Falcon and when he is shooting the proton torpedo into the Death Star. The next movie, the extent of his force includes him being able to use some telekinesis. In the final movie, he is able to do mind tricks, locate the weak spots of his enemies, and has a better affinity with the force. Rey, on the other hand, can do all this except locating the weak spot in under a day’s time. Not to mention she can somehow pilot better than Han Solo, despite the fact that the only ships she has ever been inside are destroyed with who knows how many parts missing or broken. She is somehow a better shot than the trained Storm Trooper, despite never having shot a gun. She is a terribly written character who has no flaws.
   

Overall, I would have to give the Force Awakens a 6/10. The movie had too many things that were wrong with it, and I didn’t even mention Snoke in my reasons. So yes, the movie is meh.

 

[Christopher Pyne MP]

[QUOTE="Jennifer Shirogane]I found it fun but hey, to each his/her own.
I was expecting for like an Old Republic movie though since I thought that's what most people wanted, well from what I've heard at least.


I am looking forward to the spinoff Rogue One, since its directed by Gareth Edwards, who was behind the Legendary-produced Godzilla movie.

[/QUOTE]
I'd like to apologise for my earlier post, I felt I may have been to antagonistic.

 

[Jennifer Shirogane]

[QUOTE="Bullet Tooth Tony]I'd like to apologise for my earlier post, I felt I may have been to antagonistic.

[/QUOTE]
Nah don't worry about it; its all good (^U^)

 

[Coward]

@Bullet Tooth Tony allow me to rebut the rebuttal (because why not?) though @AlphaDraco just says what I think but better.

Spoiler

Rey:


"I agree with some of your points, but I think the Millenium Falcon skills come from years of scavenging parts and learning from destroyed cruisers. I do agree with you when it comes to Han Solo and their dynamic, but I suppose they shoehorned that in to have Han's death being more dramatic. As for Rey defeating Ren, I think that stems from the fact Ren is one of probably five-ten people who can wield the force in the galaxy and probably hasn't had that much contest. While it is true she had no training, I liked it how she turned the tables on the babyfaced Sith, I appreciated that. "


While there may be some (implausible) explanations for some of her skills and relationships, and no doubt they were intended by the writers, that doesn't change the fact that a character like this is a complete drain on any story it touches. We hate them in stories for a reason - they are a noxious poison to realism, conflict, plot.


Even if there were good reasons for her to be so amazing, the writers should have deliberately fucked her up in some way purely for the sake of a better story. This is writing 101. There is no possibility for this character to have an arc - she is already perfect. What the hell could Luke teach her that she doesn't already know? How could she improve on a personality that is already so lovable to everyone?


Kylo Ren:


Not a lot to say to this one. Everything you say is true, but it just doesn't make any sense to write him like this. He may be a plausible character (incompetent, whiny babies exist in the real world), but why the hell would you make one the main villain of your movie? This loser, combined with the nonentities of Voldemort and Hux, means that the whole movie goes by without a single villain worth caring about. I saw this less than a week ago and I already can't remember a word that came out of any of their mouths. That said I really liked Kylo's intro scene, but it was all downhill from there.


First Order:


Meh to each their own. Logically I can see that this isn't that different from the Empire, I just would have liked to see some sort of identity other than Empire 2.0, and some sort of goal or direction other than 'fighting a thing because domination'. This ties in with the villain thing. Aesthetically they're just Nazis, so I think everyone can agree they're fine in that respect.

@cojemo

Spoiler

"Did we know much about the Empire in episode 4? I don't think so. Besides, just flat out explaining things right away in a trilogy would take away from building mystery."


This is a fair point, and this is probably my most subjective problem, but I think there is a difference here.


We didn't know about the Empire then because we didn't need to. They were an Empire and empires dominate stuff, and crush resistances. All good, bam. We know this story - this is human history.


But then the Empire is defeated, or crippled, or something. Now we do need an explanation, because we thought this was finished. We thought they'd sorted it out. What the hell happened? I don't think this is something that should be a slowly unveiled mystery, because frankly it's important knowledge to get a feel for the universe and how it works.


At the start of New Hope it takes maybe half an hour to have the galaxy figured out - there's an Empire and these guys are fugitives. There's no ambiguity. But after five hours of this movie I still don't understand the setting: Are things the same as the Empire days? Or does a new Republic exist? Are Leia's resistance fighters actually an army of some kind of interstellar alliance? Where do stormtrooper babies come from? I just can't put things into any sort of context, and it's driving me nuts.


"I don't understand this much. Seemed like enough plot to me."


Maybe I should rephrase - there's a plot, but it's fragmented to the point of incoherence. Compare/contrast with New Hope: the movie opens and we learn almost immediately there's a Death Star, a kidnapped princess and an Empire. She's sad - they blew up her whole planet right in front of her. Darth Vader is a huge badass already.


Then, one by one, these problems are sorted out. Everyone has adventures and side plots happen, but there's always the thread, the knowledge of where this is all going.


And now for this movie: Opening crawl, there's a map to Luke. Everyone wants it. But then Kylo stops wanting it. But then he wants it again. Then later a Death Star comes and shoots some planets, which I guess is sad? But we didn't even know anything about those places, they don't even have names. Then they destroy it before it can damage something we actually care about. Then they beat the main villain before he even puts up a fight.


Re. Kylo: See my answer for Tony.


"Did his character really get diluted though? I just saw it as him being older, but I guess I never really cared much about the old movies so you could be right."


It wasn't too bad, but you could feel it was going to get worse if he stayed alive. It had already begun with him fawning over Rey, and being all dopey with Leia.





"I think it's unfair to judge him right now. Besides, who's to say he isn't going to punish Kylo? This is straight up nitpicking since we knew jack shit about Palpatine as well."


Maybe you're right. To me he just doesn't really have any gravitas. The emperor was scary from the get-go.

 

[Christopher Pyne MP]

@Bullet Tooth Tony allow me to rebut the rebuttal (because why not?) though @AlphaDraco just says what I think but better.

I appreciate the cordial discussion, I know of many others on the web whom simply slide into a shit flinging contest over this film. I concede, you make valid points, and at this stage I don't really have anything coherent to say. I suppose the fact a Star Wars movie came out that was half decent is enough to change my opinion.