The finer points of Crafting

[SigurdCole]

I'm running my first Exalted (and, actually, White Wolf) game.  I'm loving the system,  as are my players, except some finer points of Power Combat.  However, one of my players is starting to really get into crafting and I'm finding the system given pretty lacking.  I've poked around in the core book and the Player's Guide, as well as Savant and Sorcerer and Bo3C and I just haven't found any answers.  So, some questions to throw out there:


BTW, all these questions are for simple, mundane crafting (no talismans, no artifacts)


1) How much do raw materials cost relative to the cost of the item being made?


2) How many successes to craft the item, and how much time per roll (I know this is somewhat broad, but I'm pretty much in the dark - specifically, I'm looking at blacksmithing).


That's pretty much it, but I'll bet a few more will come up as time passes.  Thanks, all!

 

[Persell]

1) How much do raw materials cost relative to the cost of the item being made?
2) How many successes to craft the item, and how much time per roll (I know this is somewhat broad, but I'm pretty much in the dark - specifically, I'm looking at blacksmithing).

Canonically, there are no exact answers to your questions. It's entirely your call. Unless your game is a simulation of the economics of blacksmithing, I'd recommend you go with the answers 1) cheap and 2) not many.

 

[Forn Clakes]

First off, welcome to the site, hope you enjoy it.


I've taken a look at my books and found it difficult to find about crafting costs for mundane (non-magical) items.


Personally, I'd say that the cost of crafting an item should be one dot lower than the price in the book.  The way I see it like this is so it can be sold for more than it was made for; man's gotta make a living.


Obviously, the quality of the item will also affect the cost.  A perfect sword will cost more to produce than a servicable one, being that the labour for creating such an item will be longer, and the materials being used will, most probably, be a damn sight better than those used for a normal, everyday sword.


The same can be said for the time needed, as well as the experiance of the character in crafting a certain item, which would be reflected in the character's Craft rating.  Taking the above example, a perfect sword takes at least 5 years to craft, which is a long time for a mortal, yet next to nothing for an Exalt.


The rolls should try and reflect this, and the mechanics are on pages 245 and 246 of the BWB. First step is planning, second step is assessing the materials, and the last step is the execution of the work.  Take a read, it will help considerably.


Hope this has helped,


~FC.

 

[SigurdCole]

Right on.  The system suggested for cost was about what I was considering (seeing as I really can't think of a better way, really  :wink: ).  I'm still left with a few, crankier problems.


The system gives no guidelines as to how many successes it takes to craft an item (except that it usually takes only one for an object of passable quality and mundane function).  However, you CANNOT (canonically) gain more successes in total than you Intelligence + Craft.  It also seems pretty clear-cut that successes in one phase don't carry over to another at all - they're pretty much mutually exclusive.  I'm comfortable with the time between rolls to be pretty much case-by-case (though I'll probably make the standard set that WW does in canon - regular size, large size (ship or building), and gargantuan (factory-cathedral, etc)), but I stilll have that one question:


How many successes does it take on the last roll to actually craft the object?  I'd imagine that it's relative to the cost, but we're also dealing with a hard cap.  So what is it?

 

[Forn Clakes]

Ah, tricky  :wink:


Again, it depends on the quality of the finished product.  I'd say that start at, maybe, 10 successes for a serviceable product, one of the baseline items, with each roll representing a day of work.  For a perfect item, which can last up to 5 years, then a roll should represent a months work, heading towards, at least, 25 successes.


How does this sound?


~FC.

 

[SigurdCole]

I always thought that a fair chunk of the time requires by crafting high-quality items is eaten up by planning and acquiring raw materials.  


So, you're saying that the time taken should be mostly proportional to the quality, rather than the cost of the item?  I mean, taking it from canon, while the materials for articulated plate would obviously cost more than a simple breastplate, it would also take much more time.  They're of the same quality, so that isn't a factor.  So we would be looking at, say, 5 successes per Resources dot of the finished product?  Naturally this would be modified by any quality shifts, but we could just roll that into the Resources cost; since an Exceptional item costs an extra dot in Resources, it would perhaps take another 5 successes for completion.  


How's that sound?


P.S. Y'know, to do that I'd have to throw out the canonical cap of Intelligence + Craft successes on the actual crafting roll.  I'm strangely comfortable with that  :wink:


Anyone else out there have a system to share?

 

[Obsidian Soul]

I tend to run it a bit differently.


An object takes a day to make if Resource 1, a week to make if Resource 2, a month to make if Resource 3, a season to make if Resource 4 and a year to make if Resource 5.  Material costs are (Final Resource Cost-1).  If the item is to be exceptional, increase time to the next increment or to five years if Resource 5.  If the item is to be perfect, increase time by two increments or to five years if Resource 4 or twenty years if Resource 5.  Every success past the minimum required halves the time required.


I just have the character make an Intelligence+Craft roll, at the difficulty of the creation, to plan it.  It amount of time is subsumed into the creation time, unless it is a new invention.  If it is completely new, it requires as much time as creating the item itself.


Mass Production:


Using basic technology, like windmills and watermills, standard items can be created very quickly while using very little human ingenuity or energy.  Historical examples predate Ford's plant and include the textile workers of Flanders and Gutenburg's printing press.  In general, a mass production line can create one Resource 1 object an hour, one Resource 2 object every five hours, one Resource 3 object a day, one Resource 4 object a week and one Resource 5 object a month.  Mass Production lines cost (Resource cost of item+2) to create and (Resource cost of item+1) every year for labor and maintainance costs.  A mass production line may only produce one type of item and only at standard quality.  An owner of such a plant can expect an income of (Resource cost of item+2) from such a facility.  No facility in Creation mass produces Resource 4 or 5 items, though there were such facilities during the First Age and Shogunate.

 

[Flagg]

An object takes a day to make if Resource 1' date=' a week to make if Resource 2, a month to make if Resource 3, a season to make if Resource 4 and a year to make if Resource 5.[/quote']
That's kind of screwy. Why is the value of an item tied to how long it takes to produce? That relationship doesn't exist for most items.


-S

 

[Jakk Bey]

So cutting a Resources 4 gem takes a whole season to plan? That's silly. I think that trying to put hard and fast rules on Crafting like this kind of defeats the purpose of the system for being flexible and fluid.


Easier, would be to find out what the character wants to produce, and make the call. A really good sword could take as little as a week, if folks are dedicated to making it all in one go--heating, folding, hammering, and keeping at it straight, without break.  Even less time if you've got a master who has good students and assistants.  Is a really fine cabinet going to take a year to produce? Bull.


Value is relative. Not absolute. Trying to put value down into concrete terms like this defeats the fluidity of the system.  You want to go ahead, fine, but I think that it's kind of silly.

 

[SigurdCole]

I always thought that time involved (at least the increments between rolls) would be primarily based on the size of an object.  To reuse an example, it takes longer to craft articulated plate than a breastplate, but crafting even a small ship would probably take longer than either.  Even so, how many successes should it take to make something?  Naturally, that would scale as the size of the project, so let's stick with normal human tools - shield, plow, armor, etc.  In that range of item size, you're probably looking at rolling about every day or so, but how many successes are needed?  


I know this is somewhat in the 'hard and fast' category, but I'm more looking at what other STs have done, and what works for them.  Anyone?

 

[Flagg]

The time it takes to complete projects also has a lot to do with your ability to plan well, and wether or not you have enough skilled people to assist.


-S

 

[Silence In Daylight]

STs with too much time on their hands could try adapting the artifact construction rules to mundane items--one of my STs did, though I don't have the system anymore. The size vs. cost argument variation takes a bit of work to fine-tune, iirc.

 

[SigurdCole]

I'm assuming that planning would be part of the basic span of time needed to craft, and extra successes in that stage would reduce total time or improve item quality.  Assistants would also affect that production time, but I'm still missing a baseline system.  Once I have that proportion, I can tinker with how the other factors modify them.  


Certainly, there's a certain quantity of grunt work (just like in artifact creation) that requires some skill, but not those of a master (who is, assumedly, the crafter in question).  So while assistants would certainly help in the case of mundane items, I'm pretty sure they're not crucial - it's just a lot more time-consuming without them.  


But we still need a baseline framework to hang all these whistles and bells off of.  Any other suggestions?

 

[Quorlox]

Recently started playing Exalted again.  Good to see the Compendium has has been reborn, kind of like a 3rd Circle demon that's been killed.    

But we still need a baseline framework to hang all these whistles and bells off of.  Any other suggestions?

I recently wrote up the following, so they haven't been playtested too much.  They base the crafting time on the Resource cost of the item because it simplifies the game mechanics and makes it a little easier to game balance various research projects.  A GM can always reduce the Difficulty or the number of successes required if desired.  


To craft an item, the character must have access to the appropriate tools, a good working environment, and time.  Each Craftsman check requires one week (40 hours).  


 


Base Difficulty: Resource cost of item


Exceptional Item: +1 Difficulty


Poor quality material: +1 Difficulty


Improvised material: +2 Difficulty (or more, GM discretion)


Exceptional Material: +1 to die pool


Skilled help: +1 to die pool


Additional modifiers may apply, such as stunts, GM discretion.  


 


M&C Costs  


Normal material cost: 30% of item cost  


Exceptional material cost: 50% of item


Exceptional Item 3-5x normal price


 


Successes Needed:  (Difficulty)x(Difficulty)


  As always, the GM may adjust this number at his discretion.  


 


   A failed check results only in wasted time, a botch usually ruins the project, although at the GM's discretion, it might only negate some of the accrued successes, such as 2 successes for each 1 rolled.  This latter rule is more applicable to projects requiring large numbers of successess.