"Super Solar" Charm in Cult of the Illuminated

[memesis]

What I am not convinced of (and what both Cult and Sidereals backs up quite nicely) is that they are capable of acting on those concerns in concert - in other words, while you might have all these individual guys saying "Solars going gonzo is bad", when they try to do something about it within the context of the Gold Faction, it WILL fall apart.

The Sidereals were capable of acting in concert in far larger numbers than the Gold Faction. That three-pronged prophecy that led to the Usurpation, for example, was all of the Sidereals acting together, as was the Usurpation (assuming I've got my facts straight). Establishing the Realm under the Scarlet Empress and imposing the Immaculate Philosophy was the Bronze Faction acting in concert. The Bronze Faction is larger in number than the Gold Faction, no?

And look where it got them.

• One (1) unforeseen Great Contagion
  
• The emergence of the Deathlords
  
• The disappearance of the Empress to who-knows-where
  
• A Realm that drained the rest of the world dry, and is now collapsing in on itself after the tent peg that kept it up was removed

So convince me they're doing a really good job.  Try it.

 

[memesis]

Joseph and Andrew02 seem to think (or I guess they do) that I've got my tongue up GCG's ass or something.  I hate to break it to you, but I don't think the writers are right on everything.  I'm not part of their cult.  I am, however, endowed with a brain and the obligation to use it, and I do.  And given the choice between the views of a couple of self-important schmos on a forum and some people who get paid to write and publish books that are selling pretty well, I'm going to say that their vision of the setting seems more consistent than yours.


With that in mind, I'm choosing to believe the reading of things that I've put forth here, and you're welcome to take it or leave it.  But don't hold me accountable for your inability to see properly.

 

[Halfdead Frodi]

What I am not convinced of (and what both Cult and Sidereals backs up quite nicely) is that they are capable of acting on those concerns in concert - in other words, while you might have all these individual guys saying "Solars going gonzo is bad", when they try to do something about it within the context of the Gold Faction, it WILL fall apart.

The Sidereals were capable of acting in concert in far larger numbers than the Gold Faction. That three-pronged prophecy that led to the Usurpation, for example, was all of the Sidereals acting together, as was the Usurpation (assuming I've got my facts straight). Establishing the Realm under the Scarlet Empress and imposing the Immaculate Philosophy was the Bronze Faction acting in concert. The Bronze Faction is larger in number than the Gold Faction, no?

And look where it got them.

• One (1) unforeseen Great Contagion
  
• The emergence of the Deathlords
  
• The disappearance of the Empress to who-knows-where
  
• A Realm that drained the rest of the world dry, and is now collapsing in on itself after the tent peg that kept it up was removed

So convince me they're doing a really good job.  Try it.

Don't forget the destruction of 9/10ths of Creation during the Fae Invasion following the Great Contagion. Yup, their doing a wonderful job...really. Or as my fiancee puts it "After all, Sidereals can't be wrong, can they, so this all must have been part of the plan." Add in their tendency to forget that there's a bloody fuckload of things that can interfere with Creation which are outside of fate, such as Demons, the Dead, the Fae...and that's not adding in the Autocthonians... Yup, Siddies are the best to run Creation, really.

 

[Andrew02]

So convince me they're doing a really good job.  Try it.

Creation continues to exist. And in a form that either allows things to get better, or worse. There are options. Creation can still be saved from all of the forces that threaten to destroy it or render in into a twisted place worse than all levels of Dante's Inferno combined.


How could things have turned out better, memesis? Hmm? Let the Solars go on for a few more centuries and get even more fucking insane and powerful?


I really think that all things considered it was a FUCKING GOOD job. But . . you know . . . I guess good has to be some retardedly superior utopia greater than any promised by any religion ever, doesn't it?

Joseph and Andrew02 seem to think (or I guess they do) that I've got my tongue up GCG's ass or something.

You guess wrong, fucktard.

And given the choice between the views of a couple of self-important schmos on a forum and some people who get paid to write and publish books that are selling pretty well, I'm going to say that their vision of the setting seems more consistent than yours.

You clearly aren't using that brain of yours because I have based my views on the writings of some people who get paid to write and publish books, jackass.

But don't hold me accountable for your inability to see properly.

I was trying to be nice. Why did you have to be a fucking cock about this? Why, at EVERY turn, did you have to take the most idiotic interpretation of Cult of the Illuminated in favour of small passages you provided from the Sidereals book?


How, seriously, am I fucking NOT seeing it properly when the text fucking SAYS the Gold Faction is concerned about Solars limit breaking, even when they DO let Lytek put his elixir in the purified water? They UNDERSTAND what that elixir does to Solars, and thus UNDERSTAND it's a fucking risk.


Given how fucking retarded and inflexible you're being over a VERY SMALL amount of text in a book published LONG before Cult of the Illuminated, it seems really fucking reasonable to leave your narrow interpretation.

Add in their tendency to forget that there's a bloody fuckload of things that can interfere with Creation which are outside of fate' date=' such as Demons, the Dead, the Fae...and that's not adding in the Autocthonians...[/quote']
How can the Sidereals forget about demons when it's one of their jobs to do so, and then forget about the others things when they did not know about them prior to any action?


Honestly. How COULD the Sidereals have forgotten about Mask of Winters before he stormed Thorns?

 

[memesis]

Honestly. How COULD the Sidereals have forgotten about Mask of Winters before he stormed Thorns?

You keep asking "how how how could these things be", and you got an answer.  You just don't like it

 

[Joseph]

That's EXACTLY what hubris leads to, dimwit.

Hubris doesn't involve doing a 180 that can in no way help you, but can screw you over.  That's what this Charm exemplifies.  


Nothing else you've said is actually worth addressing, as it's mostly just a vain attempt to clumsilly emulate my posting style, but without any of the sense, logic, or rationality behind it.


You're simply wrong, and no amount of appealing to hubris will change that.  Hubris makes you make non-obvious errors in judgment, not work directly against yourself to no avail.

 

[Andrew02]

You keep asking "how how how could these things be", and you got an answer.  You just don't like it

Oh. Yes. Of course. A handful of lines you quoted. OF COURSE. My fucking god, but they need to save that brain of yours when they die.


Somehow, I'm just not convinced the Great Curse is responsible for the Sidereals failing to take into account something they are ignorant of, and had no method to be aware of.

 

[memesis]

Well, that's okay.  I've made my points, you two have brushed them off, and that's fine.  Thanks for demonstrating that ignorance and overweening arrogance works in the real world, too


Feel free to keep rambling, if you like.

 

[Joseph]

Well, that's okay.  I've made my points, you two have brushed them off, and that's fine.  Thanks for demonstrating that not listening to individuals who quote text in extremely selective and blind fashion to the exclusion of logic or reason works in the real world, too

That's what I think you meant.

 

[ashenphoenix]

Hrrrm.


OK, have read both sides, and not read CoI (and so am disregarding the supposedly selectively quoted references).


Here's a thought.


Big badass just managed to knock down Thorns in a tiny amount of time. How do we stop him?


Send in a Solar all hopped up on Super-Soldier crack to assassinate him and die in a blaze of his own anima-glory.


I can so see the Gold faction and the Bronze faction getting into an arms race that results in this. Hell, it's the same way the Nuke was invented.


Siderials can't see Deathlords directly - but Solars aren't so reliant on Astrology. Same deal with the patternspiders going rogue after Autochthon woke up.


There's no problem that cannot be fixed by a large enough application of explosives. That's what this charm is - a Nuke for Exalted.

 

[Andrew02]

(and so am disregarding the supposedly selectively quoted references).

The quotes Joseph asserts are selective are those of memesis. He quoted only from the Sidereals.


My quotes are certainly selective, but I did not ignore or discount out of hand passages that would counter what I presented.

Send in a Solar all hopped up on Super-Soldier crack to assassinate him and die in a blaze of his own anima-glory.

You cannot do this when Solars are suffering from Limits Breaks constantly. Solars suffering from Limit Breaks simply cannot be controlled, period.


Also, Cult of the Illuminated states that at least one of the camps' instructors train Solars NOT to sacrifice themselves. Solars simply represent too great an investment to the Gold Faction to treat them as a disposable weapon (also, interestingly, the Solars at Kether Rock are trained to preserve as much as possible the lives of those placed under their command, as the Tiger Warriors also represent a significant expenditure of resources to the Cult, which is an extremely significant investment of resources to the Gold Faction). The fact is if they send a Solar they've trained off to die they've wasted three years of effort (potentially more, actually, since they have Solars they've been training for years, and the Solars of the Cult have artifacts of orichalcum and jade quite readily available to them), and then they have to go through the song and dance of finding a new Solar, recruiting that Solar, and then three more years of training.

That's what this charm is - a Nuke for Exalted.

A nuke, perhaps, that was guaranteed to do more damage to those who created it,  and those whose delivered it than those who suffered the blast.

 

[ashenphoenix]

That's what this charm is - a Nuke for Exalted.

A nuke, perhaps, that was guaranteed to do more damage to those who created it,  and those whose delivered it than those who suffered the blast.

There's an inference there that the Solars are going to want themselves constantly Limit Breaking.


I was under the impression that Limit Breaks kinda like psychotic breaks - very unpleasant for the individual concerned. Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't this a sort of Last Stand vs. Normally Unbeatable Opponent kind of deal? Yes, training a Solar in this charm is probably going to be performed away from any bystanders (like - a week's travel away from the nearest town), but I doubt it would be used in everyday affairs like training bouts or cooking dinner.


It's not like it's a socialize charm here people. It's a charm designed to make sure you kick the ass of every living thing in the immediate radius and then sulk for a week or so. It's the move the hero busts out in the final scene of invading a Deathlord's citadel, Autochthonia or the Labyrinth, not every time he stubs his toe.


You use Solars with this the same way you use a Nuke. From a very long way away. because you don't want anything you care about in the radius of them - or their limit break period.


Solars use the same caution - they are likely aware that they're going to be a raving blood-splattered mess after this is over, but at least the won't be a raving bleeding mess.


If you want an example of the use of something similar to this in action - watch the Drunken Master series (Jackie Chan).


_{<b>Caution:</b> use of this charm may cause starvation do to lack of backup.}

 

[Bayman]

Ignoring the 3 pages of flame war, think of it this way.


The Sidereals do not know of the Great Curse....


They do not know what a Limit Break is....


They do not know what Limit is...


Therefore, they cannot know of any charms that would cause one to gain Limit or suffer a Limit Break.


Also, it can be assumed that Michael is the most advanced Cult of Illuminated Solar at Kether Rock, and he hasn't learned the Battle Visage charm yet.


Therefore, we can make the conclusion that no Solar has ever used said Battle Visage charm, and no Sidearal has ever seen any Solar use said charm.


Thus, no Sidereal is aware of the side effects of using the charm.


When you read the description for the Battle Visage charm, you are looking at game mechanics.  Something that is entirely seperate from anything in-game.  Because you are reading game mechanics, the side-effects and consequences of the Battle Visage charm are very evident.


The Sidereals have no way of knowing that the Battle Visage charm will cause anything bad to happen after its use.  We know something bad does happen, but to them, it's just another charm they teach to Solars.


The Gold Faction is aware of the madness that overcame the First Age Solars.  Each Cult of Illuminated camp has come up with their own way to counteract or resist it.  And each camp is confidant that their way works, otherwise they wouldn't be actively training powerful Solars!


What it all comes down to is, the Sidereals are flawed, as flawed as any other type of Exalted.  And the Cult of Illuminated was written to be flawed, the author says as much.

 

[ashenphoenix]

....3 pages of flame war....

Bwahahahahahahahah.


*Hem*


That was funny.


This was a cold cinder fight compared to some arguments I've seen happen round here.

 

[MOK]

Well said Bayman.  Your logic cuts through the muck like a hot knife through butter.


Welcome btw.


and yeah... that wasnt a flame war, here...  ><

 

[Silence In Daylight]

I know this topic's kinda dormant, but there was a point everyone seemed to be assuming that I wanted to bring up.


 Why does everyone unequivocally associate a CotI Solar limit breaking with the GF's loss of control over said Solar?


 Fine, the Siddies don't know about the Great Curse. However, they must know about the occasional and unpredictable, um, lapses that Solars undergo, especially when under stress. And that after having a lapse, it tends to be a while before they have another one.


 Now, they come across a charm that, aside from the combat bennies, can induce states in the Solars that use the charm...which remarkably resemble those unpredictable lapses.


 Deliberately inducing Solars to limit break on a regular basis, under supervision, so that they don't do it at more inconvenient times...that may be a form of control the GF wouldn't mind using on certain Solars.

 

[Persell]

Why does everyone unequivocally associate a CotI Solar limit breaking with the GF's loss of control over said Solar?

Because Limit Breaks cause the Solar to act under the compulsion of an ancient and terrible curse. Not their own will, not nobody else's. It's a temporary loss of control, no two ways about it.


Temporary... the point you raise later is truly excellent.

Deliberately inducing Solars to limit break on a regular basis' date=' under supervision, so that they don't do it at more inconvenient times...that may be a form of control the GF wouldn't mind using on certain Solars.[/quote']
Yeah, that point. Good call.


In fact, Sidereals deciding to use this brutal psychological technique to "better control" their Solar protegès looks a lot like the sort of Curse-influenced idiocy Sidereals are prone to. I like it!

 

[Persell]

The Sidereals do not know of the Great Curse....
They do not know what a Limit Break is....


They do not know what Limit is...


Therefore, they cannot know of any charms that would cause one to gain Limit or suffer a Limit Break.

Your conclusion doesn't actually follow from your premises. You'd need the additional premise "it is necessary to know the details of the Great Curse in order to know charms that aggravate it." This statement is obviously wrong; no Exalt knows about the Curse, and several charms affect it. One even mentions that the effect on the Curse is a side-effect and not an intended consequence.


Although, the charm Countenance of Vast Wrath (CB:Z) <i>relies</i> on the Curse for its effect. I never liked that mechanic, and put it down to the early supplements' low quality and consistency.


edit: it <i>is</i> possible, I guess, to make a charm without fully understanding where its effects come from, but I thought it was weak.