Solar and Lunar joint campaign 2nd Edition

Moonsilver

Moonsilver

Member
My plan is to run a Solar and Lunar joint campaign. But I don’t want the Lunars being second best. So the question is how far do I have to go to balance them? Here is some ideas so far. One worry is that if I implement them all then the Lunars become more powerful than the Solars.


1. Lunars are allowed to use Charms to increase dice pool in a skill up to Attribute + Ability as a maximum. This would have to be all Lunars not just player ones.


2. Lunars are allowed to develop Solar Circle Sorcery. This would most likely be just for player characters and perhaps a Lunar mentor.


3. Character creation points and experience point costs are the same for Lunars and Solars. The higher cost being used.


Oh and glad to be on here!
 
Moonsilver said:
My plan is to run a Solar and Lunar joint campaign. But I don’t want the Lunars being second best. So the question is how far do I have to go to balance them? Here is some ideas so far. One worry is that if I implement them all then the Lunars become more powerful than the Solars.
1. Lunars are allowed to use Charms to increase dice pool in a skill up to Attribute + Ability as a maximum. This would have to be all Lunars not just player ones.


2. Lunars are allowed to develop Solar Circle Sorcery. This would most likely be just for player characters and perhaps a Lunar mentor.


3. Character creation points and experience point costs are the same for Lunars and Solars. The higher cost being used.


Oh and glad to be on here!
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I'd use only 3, if any. Solars and Lunars are preety much balanced out, the differences are minimal. Giving the Lunars excellencies like solars' ones would get the lunars sightly more powerful, I believe, and giving them solar circle would be like allowing them to use Sidereal astrology. The solar circle is one of the things that makes solars unique, one of their differencials.
 
Yeah, I'd say at the moment Solars and Lunars are pretty well balanced.  If you implement no. 3, I'd imagine you won't have any problems with balance.  After all, unlike in 1e Lunars have perfect offenses, at least one perfect defense (I haven't read all the charms yet), and some great knacks.  Giving them Solar circle sorcery is a bit much IMO.  At that point you might as well give Solars the ability to shapeshift   :D
 
In 2nd Ed, Lunars are not the second best anymore. They are as powerful as Solars and they complete each other in almost every aspect. I'm running a Solar/Lunar campaign and after a dozen sessions the Lunar characters are still as powerful as the Solars and I never felt any need to house rule the Lunars.


If you give Lunars a higher dice pool they will roll more dice than the Solars in combat. A Essence 5 Solar rolls up to 23 + (weapon acc). A Essence 5 Lunar rolls up to 23 + (war form dex) x 2 + (weapon acc) + 5 (from Relentless Lunar Fury Charm).


Solar Circle Sorcery will not unbalance Lunars, but will change the setting considerably. If Lunars always had access to SCS, the Sidereals would have a greater reason to hunt down Lunars after Usurpation and the Scavenger Lands would be completely different with a Solar Circle Sorcerer Raksi. Also, a few 3rd Circle demons would be enough to protect a significant portion of Creation's borders from invading fair folk.
 
Well. I don't believe you need to change a thing, to be honest...if anything, the Solars might need more, debatably. A Lunar does (with fury) get Attribute + Essence as their die adder cap (and a free auto success too, let's not forget), their Moonsilver claws are seriously killer, they can get close to 60 soak if you tweak, not to mention they have a charm that makes their hardness equal their armor soak, oh and they can reduce ping damage to zero...that is, if they don't decide to just make themselves immune to that particular damage type.


Yeah. They don't need balancing in the slightest. As to die caps, a Lunar can potentially add up to two more dice than a Solar with similar capabilities (+1 from DBT, +1 for the DBT upgrade to their attribute), so they don't need that...their XP costs are fair, considering their charms tend to do much more than a Solar one would, seeing as how they go off attributes and not abilities...and Solar Sorcery would mess with Canon...though if you want to give it to them, it's the one that makes the least difference, balance wise, I suppose.


*shrugs* My two cents anyhow is to leave things as is, and try it. If you have balance issues that aren't from someone just building poorly or being the wrong build for what they're sucking at (which I doubt), then house rule afterwards. But I don't think they need it. :)
 
If you change anything in favour for the lunars you are goign to create an unbalance. Prey's skin disguise is 11xp and basically is the whole solar larceny tree wrapped in one knack. And there are many examples like that.


Lunars are not second best, they are just different, sacrificing raw power for more versatility.
 
I don't see any reason to rebalance Lunars at all...even if it is a primarily Solar game.


As long as each character plays to his strengths and doesn't engage in competition over niches with the Solars the Lunars should fit right in.
 
I'm definately in complete agreement with my wife here. Likely best to leave them as is in 2E. Lunars are certainly no longer second fiddle to anyone in 2E. (Or was it 5th fiddle last ed? Either way, it's fixed now) if anything, I'd be more inclined to think the Solars needed help...but with the difference in xp costs for charms...I don't think that's true either...it helps to balance things. Yes, the Solar ends up with a few more charms numerically...but most Lunar charms are a charm and a half in effect...at least in versatility.
 
I too will throw in my counter to having to balance anything for Lunars.  I think they're quite balanced currently.  In the game I'm running, I've got 2 Solars (1 Twilight, 1 Zenith), 2 Abyssals (1 Day, 1 Daybreak), and a Lunar Changing Moon.  The Lunar, is currently the power-house in any fight, and regularly out-damages almost anyone else, aside from the occasional carpet-bomb of Sorcery or Necromancy.  Not to say the others don't hold their own (hell, the Daybreak is almost unkillable...)  All in all, while somethings may have been dropped down for Lunars, overall I find them quite a bit more balanced and definately more viable in group games.  And the changing moon has proven on multiple occasions just how useful their Caste ability can be.


As for the Solar Circle Sorcery, unless you plan on throwing Raksi into the list of NPCs, I don't think ANY other Lunar can stake a claim in achieving that accomplishment.  Hell, as a Storyteller, you could make her achievement of that goal one of the focal-points.
 
Well you have convinced me that my concerns where needless. I will drop the Charm pool “equalityâ€
 
Safim said:
Even raksi can't claim having achieved adamant, its kinda the point of her.
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As per Cannon, not yet at least.  She wants to, badly.  But of any Lunar, she's the closest to obtaining that goal.  Now, as an ST, part of a plot hook could be her attempting, or getting close to unraveling that problem.  Or, as a cataclysmic plot...  she could achieve said goal, and begin plunging the world into an all new type of (dare I say it...)  Madness.   :twisted:
 
Flyck said:
Safim said:
Even raksi can't claim having achieved adamant, its kinda the point of her.
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As per Cannon, not yet at least.  She wants to, badly.  But of any Lunar, she's the closest to obtaining that goal.  Now, as an ST, part of a plot hook could be her attempting, or getting close to unraveling that problem.  Or, as a cataclysmic plot...  she could achieve said goal, and begin plunging the world into an all new type of (dare I say it...)  Madness.   :twisted:
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She is not one stop closer than any other no moon who mastered celestial circle sorcery. The book of three circles brings spells, not more power, and the spire should be kinda useless to her as the spire assumed solars being the pupils of the adamant circle.


Of course you can a lot of time read a lot of strange things into canon, but without twisting words as written you will not see raksi even one step into the direction of the last circle.


Wonders of the lost age even depicts her as a fiendish barbarian sorcress who sees the book "only as a trophy".
 
To be honest...I pity whoever ends up as her Solar mate.


"I've been waiting for you my love! Here, read this for me."


"But..."


*looms* "Read it."


".....okay."


That is, if she doesn't just Threefold Binding them right off. *shakes head sadly* Mad woman...poor person would just be another trophy...a prized one as they could learn Solar Sorcery and use it for her, granted...but still nothing more than a trophy.


But on the topic...the only two house rules I consider for Lunars myself are ensuring that they don't have to take months of training time to get to essence 3, as it's written...and I've considered upping their starting number of charms/knacks to 10 instead of 8 (Peter Schaefer commented once that he wrote the charms and knacks with having them have 10 starting in mind, but Conrad did the chargen, not him). Other than that, they haven't needed anything that I've seen in games with them, and I haven't seen the latter hurt them, really. The former I suspect is a typo or similar error, basically.
 
Dracogryff said:
To be honest...I pity whoever ends up as her Solar mate.
"I've been waiting for you my love! Here, read this for me."


"But..."


*looms* "Read it."


".....okay."


That is, if she doesn't just Threefold Binding them right off. *shakes head sadly* Mad woman...poor person would just be another trophy...a prized one as they could learn Solar Sorcery and use it for her, granted...but still nothing more than a trophy.
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Hey, the poor Twilight is the one who said he wanted a pretty loli-Lunar...his own fault. ;)
 
Here is the final list I drew up:


a) CHARACTER CREATION QUICK CHART


• Write down your Concept and Nature


• Choose Aspect: Write down the character’s anima power.


• Choose Abilities (Statistics): Allocate your primary 8, secondary 6 and tertiary 4 set.


• Choose Attributes (Skills): Allocate your 28 Solar /25 Lunar points. At least 10 in your Aspect favoured ones. Normal maximum 3. Can be raised to 5 with Bonus points.


• Select your 10 Solar / 8 Lunar Gifts /Knacks


• Select your four Virtues. They all start at level one (1 dot). Five points to allocate between them. At least one Virtue must be at level 3, normal maximum 3. Can be raised to 5 with Bonus points.


• Allocate 7 Background points


• Buy up to 10 points in Merits, pick up to 7 points in Flaws


• Spend Bonus Points. Starts at 15, adjusted by Merits and Flaws.


l) BONUS POINTS


You have 15 Bonus points to ice the cake that is your character. You sprinkle these to buy an extra dot here or there. They also pay for Merits. Here are the costs:


Trait Cost


Attribute (Stats) 4


Ability (Skills) 2


Background 1 (2 if the Background is being raised above 3)


Virtue 3


Willpower 2


Gifts (Charms) 5 Solars / 7 Lunars


Knacks 7


I dont allow Essence to start at above 2.
 
Just a couple of things. The costs and requirements for Solars and Lunars can't be perfectly equal. First, Lunars favor attributes, not abilities. Second, Lunars only get two favored abilities - Survival and one more of their choice. As per the rules, they only have to put one dot into each one of these abilities. If you are going to require that Lunars spend 10 dots on favored abilities, then both of those abilities will be at 5 - which is impossible via the rules, because you can only buy an ability to 3 dots.


From what it looks like, you're giving no breaks for favored abilities/attributes. I understand what you're trying to do here, but at the same time, it seems like you're homogenizing the two different Exalts. Without those differences, it seems - to me anyway - others may feel differently - you should just have everyone the same, able to buy whatever they want. I'm currently playing a Lunar and I'll throw in my voice with those who say things shouldn't be changed. I agree with that. I think they've balanced the Lunars nicely. By making everything the same, I actually think you're making the Solars weaker.


Lastly, are you playing 1st Edition? Because you have them selecting a Nature, and Nature isn't used in 2nd Edition. Oversight? Or are you using an amalgamated system?


Just my thoughts.....
 
Safim said:
Of course you can a lot of time read a lot of strange things into canon, but without twisting words as written you will not see raksi even one step into the direction of the last circle.


Wonders of the lost age even depicts her as a fiendish barbarian sorcress who sees the book "only as a trophy".
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MoEP Lunars depicts Raksi as the premier Sorceress of the Lunars, who has mastered nearly all of the Terestrial and Celestial circles.  It also depicts her of being the one to devise the Tattoos to protect the Lunars, shows that her primary goal is to achieve Solar circle Sorcery, and that she treasures her Book of 3 Circles.


Don't get me wrong, I have the Wonders of the Lost Age as well, but I think the Lunar's fluff overrides in that sense due to it's more recent publication.  Although, any ST could easily portray her with casual disinterest towards those goals, as a ruse to fool the players (as I most likely will do).
 
Yes, both is surely possible. Anyway if I ever was to play a solar she'd be on my "slap to sanity list" top spot.
 
Not to beat a pulped horse or anything but I see no need to houserule some buffs for the Lunars to Balance them with the Solars.  Hell just keep their costs the same, no need to redo the costs to let them equal Solars.


Just look the Starting Lunar has a better charm list and a better options for beginning Comboes.  Strength, Stamina, Dexterity, and Wits Excellencies comboed would make a crazy useful starting Combo.  Wits to make you go first, Dexterity to hit or not get hit, Stamina in case you do get hit, and Strength to smash em.  Hell you could even have it be Strength and Dexterity as the Combo and it would still be insanely kickass for a beginning Combo.  This is without even taking into account you could go Deadly Beastman on there ass or Dinostomp and Chomp them with a Tyrant Lizards Hearts blood.


Consider this do you have to houserule to make a Social or Mental Solar a match for a martial one?  In Combat you do not have to worry about Lunars being second string.  With their excellencies along you pretty much make most every Lunar Very Compitent in Combat and versatile in everything else, while a Combat heavy Lunar will be a Killing machine that is still versatile in anything else thanks to his Excellencies.


I am not a fan of Houseruling Experience costs and limitations for Exalts.  If their is a balance issue my suggestions are to give the weaker party a greater number of starting points in abilities, attributes, backgrounds and or charms.  But this is usually for Dragonbloods.  It looks like the Celestials can handle their own...
 
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