Sidereal oddness

[Haku1]

I just noticed something odd and somewhat sickening if you considere it.


Using 'Pattern Spider Touch', you can remake anyone into a beast, including fellow exalts...


Say, a punk-ass solar challenges an ancient sidereal and got beated down after a long fight... The sidereal decides to punish the solar and makes him into... a gold-fish, who still possesses the solar shard, just stripped of his human body and mind.


Now, look at the charms for the sidereal ride tree... specifically 'ordained brindle of mercury', which allows you to magically force an animal to become your familiar.


You do so.... on the exalted gold-fish...


Than, you use spirit-shapped companion... and this is where it gets odd.as they become a spirit.... complete with spirit essence pools and charms... >_<


Than there is godly companion... which forces the spirit to become even greater...


What is there other than ST-ruling to prevent this in canon?

 

[Flagg]

Thanks again, Borgstrom!


-S

 

[psychoph]

In canon I would say tell the very not so powerful Exalted to stay away form the fish making Sidereal.


I don't know of powers to alter this but I would question why a Sidereal wants to make an exalted into a fish.  Isn't there a Terrestrial or Celestrial level spell that can make a person serve you for a year and a day?  I thought the Sidereals were already casting this spell on anyoen and everyone they wanted to.  I thought there was a reference somewhere to a canon npc person that was so enfused with this spell that he has no will of his own anymore.

 

[memesis]

Thanks again, Borgstrom!
-S

I guess this a lot more unbalancing than an Essence 6 Solar slamming his daiklave into the ground and everything within 50 yards exploding for 30L damage, or shooting an arrow through a Warstrider and its nigh-invulnerable pilot from over the horizon and making them both explode into jade flinders (a feat possible at Essence 4, no less)?


Being turned into a spiritual pet by a Sidereal martial artist is a downgrade in power for most Solars.  It may be humiliating, but there are many worse fates that high-Essence beings can inflict.

 

[Haku1]

psychoph,


But it means that said exalted can now become a familiar and than a god... and perhaps get made into starmetal... or something fun if he gets all uppity again.


As for the celestial spell you're thinking of 'Trifold Binding of the Heart', it has a weakness... once a year, the victim get s a change to break free, also if you -fail-, the spell can't be used against the target ever again. You'll want to look at BoTC/S&S for the spell details, and at castebook night for when it hits someone, or in twilight opening fiction for when it fails.


memesis,


Yeah... it's one of the not so bad fates that can be dealt to a loser in a fight against a high end exalted.

 

[Andrew02]

I guess this a lot more unbalancing than an Essence 6 Solar slamming his daiklave into the ground and everything within 50 yards exploding for 30L damage, or shooting an arrow through a Warstrider and its nigh-invulnerable pilot from over the horizon and making them both explode into jade flinders (a feat possible at Essence 4, no less)?

Then again, anything with decent armor will probably walk away in bad shape. Exalts in magical armor aren't going to be taking a lot of hurt, and everyone but DBs have charms that could conceivably help them get around even taking damage. You can defend against those effects. A lot of the Sidereal charms just plain work against a lot of people.


Who really cares what it does to mortals? Terrestrial and Celestial Circle have spells that abound to take care of mortals. Then there is the king of big damage in Total Annihilation.


Then again, consider something like Command Voice. Solar, Essence 4, and it only works on mortals with essence 1 (and they get to resist with a standard difficulty Willpower roll!). Servile fae folk, if your ST is feeling generous. Then you get Shun the Smiling Lady, which'll work on anybody. You could make Venus an Appearance 1 slag nobody loved if the ST didn't smack you upside the head for it.

 

[dreamspawn]

grr


I agree with all that you are saying, but considering the way AVARAGE sidereal charms are laid out being unblockable ect and the way the just happened to stumble across goldfish making martial arts becouse it was intresting,


there had better be a damn good reason why the 50 old sidereals back in the first age didn't just beat up the suposed 'gods umonghst exalted' themselves, after all with the CHEAPER essence cost charms and the EASYER ability Requirements for normal charms and perfect defences, how could the old solers even get the 3 turns to even CAST solar level sorcery????


I mean they found god destroying Martial arts becouse it was INTRESTING?????? come on guys... that kinda smacks of munshkinism.


I mean exalted has been REALY well done I think white wolf has supassed them self!


but with the sidereal book I was slightly let down by the flavor of them.


:?:


Please tell me if you think I'm a little harsh

 

[memesis]

Re: grr

I mean they found god destroying Martial arts becouse it was INTRESTING?????? come on guys... that kinda smacks of munshkinism.
Please tell me if you think I'm a little harsh

You misread the intent of the text in the Sidereals book.


"Interesting" in the sense of "Interesting, a powerful magical tool to do what our core Charms cannot, thus covering a vast blind spot in our ability set".


Not "Interesting" in the sense of "Interesting, this would make a fun hobby or diversion from our customary asskicking".

 

[memesis]

Re: grr

there had better be a damn good reason why the 50 old sidereals back in the first age didn't just beat up the suposed 'gods umonghst exalted' themselves, after all with the CHEAPER essence cost charms and the EASYER ability Requirements for normal charms and perfect defences, how could the old solers even get the 3 turns to even CAST solar level sorcery????

Just off the top of my head, Impeding the Flow doesn't work against unblockable attacks.  There are a handful of TERRESTRIAL CIRCLE SPELLS that (a) are unblockable in that they don't even involve an attack roll, just damage, and (b) are fairly cheap to cast, ESPECIALLY with the assets of the Old Realm at your command.  You don't even need to get into Solar Circle sorcery.  Hell, you may not need sorcery at all.


Remember something here.  The First Age Sidereals had the same limitations the Sidereals of today do.  This means that the high-Essence badasses among them still had.... Essence 3 Charms, plus martial arts.  Their enemies, the mad Solars, had Essences in the 6-7 range (possibly higher, probably not lower), and Charms to match.  How many ways can YOU build super-powered Solar Charms that easily blow past the Sidereals' strong points, on a one-on-one basis?  I count a dozen or more.

 

[shifty]

You forget all the Essence 7 Martial Art skills that mimic Cooking.


Or the Essence 8 Martial Art skill that replaces climbing.


Or the Essence 6 Martial Art skill that replaces knot tying.


That would be a VALID concern if


A) Siddy charms werent overpowered and cheap.


B) The Siddy charm limitation was actually a limitation.


As it stands, that reason is just a justification for twinkery

 

[memesis]

You forget all the Essence 7 Martial Art skills that mimic Cooking.
Or the Essence 8 Martial Art skill that replaces climbing.


Or the Essence 6 Martial Art skill that replaces knot tying.


That would be a VALID concern if


A) Siddy charms werent overpowered and cheap.


B) The Siddy charm limitation was actually a limitation.


As it stands, that reason is just a justification for twinkery

See, in my world, "twinkery" is where you make Martial Arts that do absolutely whatever you want, rather than building styles that are primarily useful in combat and have a general combat bias.  I've seen many MA submissions that do exactly this.


The other fact about MA in my world is that it is less powerful than the equivalent "regular" Charms in their normal, expected trees.  Snake gives you a small dodge adder and a counterattack - if you get hit - while Melee lets you counter any attack and Dodge lets you avoid being hit all scene.  And if you think something's missing from the MA styles you know?  You go and create a whole new style.  Goodbye XP, it's been fun.


So your twinkery comments would be a VALID concern if


A) MA designers stuck to the game's principles when designing styles


B) MA wasn't a more expensive way, overall, to get things you need


If the game says "do MA this way" and people decide they know better, and twinkery results from their actions?  Who's at fault?  It's like sueing McDonald's for spilling coffee over your crotch.

 

[dreamspawn]

Welllll


yhaaa quite, its clear that exalted started with a nice premise for Martial arts, Being able to rip a soul out, Extream but ok. Take a form of and Earth dragon as a penultimate charm Fine.


Detroying people and primordals with a punch?


Hum.


the pattern spinder style is WRONG it is not a martial art, some if it is fine but Extra attacks per turn for a SCEAN???


Destroying some one Permeneantly unwriting them from fate?


Thats not a martial art thats a GODS power.


The other Sidreal martial arts although a bit heafty in power are FINE for feel.


Even the one that lets you activate many forms at once is a martail art feel.


but come on!


Making multipal copys of self, destuction, agg damage, unblockable attact.


What was this the we got our ideas from the people who didn't think this though????


grrrrrrrrrrrrrrr


at least make a pretence this is amongst the same flavour of what martial arts was and not just stick a bunsh of random powers togeather


I mean did they READ the charms instuctions in the Exalted main book about random charms before making this abomination ???


I think not.


Its a shame realy becouse the reast of Exalted is FANTASTIC

 

[riven5]

Well, that is an essence 6, MA 6 charm utilized by the rarest of the Exalted, who are rare in their own right in Creation or wherever.  Not only that, but it's an essence 6 charm from a Sidereal MA, which are canonically known as THE most potent MA charms in existence.


Similarly, being able to kill somebody isn't that hard to do.  I'd rather not spend 20 motes and 1 wp doing it.  Being able to utterly unmake someone?  A bit harder, but in most situations it's not that useful.


Against a Primordial?  Yes, useful.  Amazing even.  However, perfect defenses exist...indeed, there is a perfect defense called Heavenly Guardian Defense that explicitly blocks anything and it is a mere essence 2 charm.  Indeed, even that amazing, tremendous attack called Pattern Spider Touch is...quite fallible.  An essence 6, MA 6 Sidereal Martial Artist who knows an entire Celestial MA just as a prerequisite for the first charms of the Consumption style...can still find one of his finest attack charms trumped by any perfect defense, of which there are many.


So, uh, yeah.  It's not that great, at least not in a lot of situations.

 

[memesis]

Re: Welllll

Destroying some one Permeneantly unwriting them from fate?
Thats not a martial art thats a GODS power.

Uh.


The Chosen ARE gods, or at the very least demi-gods.  Once upon a time, their word reshaped the flow of rivers and called down fire from Heaven.  They remade the world in their image.  They strode across the clouds and hewed cities out of the earth with sorcery.


It's a mistake to think of "martial arts" in Exalted as kicks and punches and such.  The concept is a lot more like some of the Chinese ideas about "kung fu", where physical combat ability is part of the overall skill set, but usually only the start of it.

 

[dreamspawn]

Nice try


Nice try, but a martail art should not destory people from the tapastrey of fate ect. you are right they CALLED down, they didn't make fire from heavens, ((Althoue I sopse spells could do that a charm just couldn't))


As for punch and kick,  I belive I did say


'yhaaa quite, its clear that exalted started with a nice premise for Martial arts, Being able to rip a soul out, Extream but ok. Take a form of and Earth dragon as a penultimate charm Fine'


so I'm not complaining about the powers themself, if they were penultiment charms in a martial arts tree, I would have no problems, but all of them in one tree???? Even if that tree is a sidreal martail arts.


Its like putting ALL the high end combats charms for dawns in one tree. Why?


oh and as for the REALY EXPENCIVE blocking tech, that need to be activated every time, if you dont run out of motes by the 3 turn you will of run out of willpower, considering they attack so many times a turn.


and since they can use they're gain back willpower becouse of the ' I care about you technique, there FINE, esp since there charms in the most powerful martail art known to GODS COST LESS than that essence 2 charm your talking about, never mind the improved version of it from the caste books.


All in all talk as much as you like about easten phelsophy, they see it as a TOOL, a PATH to be walk upon, a way of understanding the greater truths of without and within, by shaping the world you shape yourself, by shaping yourself you shape the world. all of this is fine.


but true destruction is an anithiema to that phlosiophy you desided to qoute, so lets keep this about the game and less about real life eh?


*cheeky grin*Kung fu is great


Oh this discution about martial arts is now open on a diffrent page so we dont bog up the real talk hear, thats about siderals, so if ya feal like sharing its called


Sidereals martial arts, WHAT????.


That way we dont bog up the origanal discution here oko


Dreamspawn

 

[Jakk Bey]

Dreamspawn--Actually, Memesis is right on point here--if you look at the PG which explains better what the Exalted concept behind Martial Arts is about.


It's about greater understanding of how the Creation works.


At the Root of the Perfected Lotus you begin to understand your own Exalted nature. It's elementary understanding of how Essence interacts with matter--starting with your own Essence flow.


At the Bulb of the Perfected Lotus you have an understanding of how Creation and Heaven operate and interact. Not just your own flow of Essence, but how Essence works in conjunction with other things. How cause and effect bloom from actions, and have cascades of effect throughout the Creation.  Not just how Essence flows between you, and others, but how the Tapestry unfolds, and how to affect it.


At the Blossoming of the Perfected Lotus you have the pinnacle and ultimate understanding of All. This is a level of understanding that even the Gods don't get--because they are rooted in their place in the Creation and the Gods can't experience the Blossoming of the Perfected Lotus*.  The Sidereals are functionaries of the Gods, who have a better understanding of the Creation at times, than the Gods do. The Gods were created to maintain the Creation, and are rooted into it. While Sidereals were created to transcend just the Creation, and to care for the Tapestry and Fate.


And with that understanding, they can mess around with the Tapestry. Like unweaving a portion of it to excise a bit of bad code--say a Solar who is getting uppitty. That doesn't mean that there won't be reprecussions from that action--but it's well in their purview to exercise that bit of power. It's what they do.


Part of the problem with the discussions about Sidereal Arts is that you have to understand that the Sidereal Arts aren't just about punching and kicking, but manipulating Essence, even manipulating Fate. The arts are High Concept arts, about spiritual growth, how everything interacts. And how an application of Essence can cascade throughout the Creation and Heaven, literally reworking the rules, by re-writing them.


Certainly, very powerful stuff. And it's not about ONE tree getting all the dap. All of the Sidereal Arts are about the highest understanding of how the Creation actually works, and not being rooted into just literal interpretations, but being able to reweave the basic concepts.  Such as removing, reworking, and retooling those rules.


At the Terrestrial level you understand yourself.


At the Celestial level you understand yourself and your relations with others in the Creation.


At the Sidereal level you understand yourself, your relations with others in the Creation, and how these things all relate with the Heavens and Fate. You understand that even the Gods have a purpose, that is limited to their role in the Creation, and how these roles are all connected, and how to rework these connections.


*PG-pg 234.

 

[Jakk Bey]

Just as a sidenote--penultimate is the next to the last of a list. Not the last, top or ultimate.  The penulitmate forms of Martial Arts is the Celestial or Bulb of the Perfected Lotus.

 

[riven5]

Re: Nice try

Nice try, but a martail art should not destory people from the tapastrey of fate ect.

Why not?  It makes sense to me.  The Sidereals run fate.  Literally.  They, under the occasional supervision of the Maidens, run the entire Loom of Fate that makes Creation work right.  I don't see why a high-end Sidereal MA charm (Created entirely BY Sidereals) could not accomplish the feat of removing someone from the weave.

oh and as for the REALY EXPENCIVE blocking tech, that need to be activated every time, if you dont run out of motes by the 3 turn you will of run out of willpower, considering they attack so many times a turn.

What blocking tech are you referring too?  Clearly you can't be speaking about HGD, because HGD costs 3 motes and 1 wp.  As far as Solar charms go, this is probably THE most mote efficient combat charm in their entire library.  The WP cost is the kick in the nuts part, though acceptable if you're cautious.  Do not forget that if the Siddies want to remove you from the Loom using Pattern Spider Touch, they'd be spending 20 motes and 1 wp every ATTACK.  They'll run out before you do.

and since they can use they're gain back willpower becouse of the ' I care about you technique, there FINE, esp since there charms in the most powerful martail art known to GODS COST LESS than that essence 2 charm your talking about, never mind the improved version of it from the caste books.

I have absolutely no idea what you're talking about here.  Elaborate please.

 

[dreamspawn]

lol, nope, deff wrong on this one, Sidreals do not run the loom of fate, that power was taken away from them.


The patten spiders run the loom the sidreals make slight altreations.


the idea of destroying people from the loom of fate and the patten spiders not having a problem with it goes against how the patten spiders are discribed.


I mean this is a god like power. one that no god has, mainly becouse the maiden of ending (That is endings, as in reincarnation) might have something to say about it.


So LITREALY, the patten spiders run the loom of fate as it says in the book, the sidereals used to, no more tough.


oh and this martail art basicly is a parodox free manipulation of fate.


patten spiders are nor human but they are not stupid. I think they would realise. Also it does mation more about this in the sidereal book, parodox aboundce sould be the reward.


Becouse the martial arts comes from Creation itself. not of creation, creation does not eradicate people from existance so

 

[memesis]

I mean this is a god like power. one that no god has, mainly becouse the maiden of ending (That is endings, as in reincarnation) might have something to say about it.

Maybe she said "nice martial art, that's just fine".

oh and this martail art basicly is a parodox free manipulation of fate.

This is incorrect.  It is not an open-ended ability to alter Fate however you wish.  It is a specific, focused effect, just exactly like the roughly 150 other Paradox-free Charms the Sidereals use to manipulate Fate.  The Spiders' opposition to astrology comes from how easily it is to screw up something, because there's a whole host of unpredictable possible outcomes.  Charms are predictable - you can plan for them.

Becouse the martial arts comes from Creation itself. not of creation, creation does not eradicate people from existance so

This, and much of your other postings, is basically unclear to the point of being hallucinatory.  Okay, we get that you don't like this Charm.  Your objection seems to boil down to "this crosses the line about what Sidereals are allowed to do with Fate", ignoring the fact that Fate is, basically, in the hands of the Sidereals.  The Pattern Spiders manipulate the Loom of Fate, but they do so at the behest of the Sidereals.  The Maidens are the deities overseeing Fate in its various forms, and they have put their trust in the Sidereals.  Defend the assertion that the Sidereals are not the principal authorities on what should happen within Fate.

 

[Persell]

It should be noted, as well, that Paradox is nothing more or less than the displeasure of the pattern spiders. Sidereal Charms, including MA Charms, are planned-for. They're already taken into account in the spiders' plans, and so do not incur paradox. The exception is Astrology-Interrupting Method, which basically says to a spider, "See this? This thing you spent all that time making? WHACK! Oops." Not exactly calculated to make the spider happy.


Sidereals do not run the Loom of Fate for one reason: it's too much work. The pattern spiders do the scut-work, but it's the Sidereals who are in charge.


And Sidereal martial arts are not based on Creation, but on principles of existence. Examples from the book are consumption and decay. These are principles that exist, in some form or another, in all places touched by Essence (except possibly some very strange areas of pure chaos, way beyond the Deep Wyld.) Contrast with Celestial martial arts, which are based on Creation-based archetypes, such as shadows, tigers, or fire.

 

[Persell]

Sidereal Charms, including MA Charms, are planned-for. They're already taken into account in the spiders' plans

Really? I'm sure that manipulation of Essence is precisely what allows Exalts to transcend the limitations of their Fate. I'm not at home so can't get you a page ref, but I know it's there. Well, in the PG rather.


In Sidereals, it's stated that manipulation of Essence makes life more difficult for Fate-planners, as it changes small things from their intended course. This is why,  in the Sids opening story, they mention an increase in charm use by Terrestrials as increasing the Bureau's workload.

 

[Persell]

My impression was that anyone can go against their fate; Essence wielders can just do it far more effectively. Also, because they have so much more potential, it's a great deal harder to write fates for them - see also the difficulty of affecting beings with Essence 2+ with Sidereal astrology.


I could be mistaken, though.

 

[memesis]

From the spiders' perspective, it's more like this.


Sidereal astrology can lead to virtually any sort of situation, applied across a wide enough area or with a strong enough intensity.  Your options when performing astrological effects make it an extremely free-form sort of fate manipulation.


By contrast, the spiders need only contend with about one or two dozen specific effects, all of which they no doubt have an excellent understanding of.  It is far, far easier to plan for deviations you thoroughly understand than to plan for ones whose consequences are impossible to easily predict.

 

[Flagg]

My impression was that anyone can go against their fate; Essence wielders can just do it far more effectively.

I had the opposite impression. Non-Essence users are basically playing out a pre-determined drama, and have no actual free-will.


-S