removing virtue dice

[greasy golem gunk]

(Post edited for clarity, 11/17/05)


I don't like Virtue Dice.  I feel they take away from roleplaying.  


I do like the "Natures" system, where taking certain actions or completing set goals restores will power.  


I wanted to write out Virtue dice, but noticed that they seem quite prevalent in the game's dice mechanics.  Here goes.


Since willpower is calculated by adding your two highest virtues together, and you generally can't start with less than 5 dots/4 virtues, Willpower is assumed to start at 5.  


(An optional Flaw: "Weak Will" would grant a single bonus point per Willpower dot you don't want to have during character generation).  


Assume that anytime you would "roll a virtue" to save against a charm/spell/odie bar, double the number you wish to beat.  Because we're rolling willpower dice instead.  Willpower is typically twice as high as virtue pools.    


(An optional Merit of "Virute" would add 2 dice to specific Virtue checks; a Valor merit would apply to Valor checks, but not compassion.  Etc.  3 point merit, can be bought up to two times per "virtue".).


(An optional Flaw of "lacking virtue", for lack of better name, would apply a 2 dice penalty to a specific virtue save.  Each time you take this flaw, you gain 2 bonus points.  ).


If you wanted a Virtue-bonus to your action, spend a willpower and add your Essence instead.  You may do this (willpower) times a story.  More powerful exalts have greater destinies apparently, but they're more limited by the Curse.


Limit break should be related to your Nature.  If you should break limit, you play that nature to it's extreme, with prejudice against whatever set you off.  Hedonists demand pleasure from all around them, paragons beat virtue into those around them...  Think about how your nature will explode when you break limit, and discuss it with your storyteller.  


If your ST believes you should be rolling limit, use your Essence score instead of virtue dice.   The greater your essence, the greater the effect of the curse.  Weaker exalts will find they have greater self control, and wizards will face insanity more often.   This sounds like Bo3C to me.


Essence pools don't really change.  Willpower is the sum of your two highest virtues, right?  If your essence pool uses "two highest virtues", use your willpower instead.  In the case of Lunars, use Willpower x2 instead of Highest virtue x4.  If you use the sum of virtues, use Willpower x2 as well.   While I don't have my numbers (or BWB) with me, I remember that this evens out  the essence pool differences slightly.  


Spirit charms no longer require a specific virtue rating to purchase.  Spirits and their goblooded children purchase charms based on Essence, and their NATURE.  Spirits have charms based on what they do.  Sprits of   health and healing have healing charms, spirits of Death and combat have  charms that enable greater stabbing ability.   Same is true of their children.


The loss of virtues Bones Ghosts and the new fairies; but it isn't a problem.  If people wanted to play fairies and ghosts, Wraith and Changling would'nt have flopped.  As storyteller characters, they are able to do whatever the ST needs them too anyway.  


So, thoughts? Suggestions for replacing Conviction for Daily willpower replenishment?

 

[Flagg]

I don't like Virtue Dice.  I feel they take away from roleplaying.

In what way?


-S

 

[Jakk Bey]

I'm curious as well. I've generally felt that they help define a character, in addition to Nature, and encourage role-playing.


I suppose it depends on how you're using Virtue dice.


If your players are just adding dice willy nilly, and not acting on their Virtues,  it could be a problem. But if that's the case, taking the Virtues away isn't really going to solve the problem of players who are more interested in die than role playing.


Elaborate, please.  Because I'm not seeing where you're coming from.

 

[Fruan]

I, personally, find that Virtues, and the adding thereof as dice, add massively to my roleplaying experience.


However, this is facilitated at least in part by my tendancy to sort out a character's virtues before any other aspect of the character - hell, most of the time I'm sorting out virtues at the same time as even the most minor of characters story or personality, because the form of a person's virtues should very much shape and be shaped by these things.


As a matter of fact, the easiest and most enjoyable character I've ever created was a Ghost NPC, simply because sorting out his virtues and then his passions totally and utterly nailed the character in my head; I totally know what he's going to do in every situation ever. And, he gets bonus dice for acting that way, which then ensures that I won't cheat, and make him do something else because he's been backed into a situation he'll normally act badly in. This is a wonderful system!


A character with properly designed virtues is truely a joy to roleplay because every time you try to do something in character you have a bunch of bonus dice if you need them. A character that's been min/maxed in the virtue department is going to be dull and annoying, because he'll get those 5 dice of valour on his attacks despite being roleplayed as someone with a far more healthy balance of humours. They'll feel like bonus dice, rather than the unstoppable impetus of a truely deranged bullwark of violence convinced of its own invunerbility.

 

[Jakk Bey]

I think that it helps too when you have some conflict within your Virtues as well. Conviction and Compassion often clash. Temperance and Valor as well. Conviction and Valor at times. It does make a mechanic for helping these internal, but I think that it's an improvement over, say, Alignment or Faction based systems. It's a tool for the player and the ST to use to help define the character.


But before we can really go on here, we ought to at least hear G3 out as to why the mechanic bothers him. Otherwise we're just hopping over nothing.


G3?  Explain please, so we can know your mind better.

 

[Obsidian Soul]

Virtues are useful.  They allow the Exalted to do the impossible and mortals to do the improbable.  I would love it if you could boost virtue dice, but I haven't, yet, figured out a good way.

 

[greasy golem gunk]

Reanimating a dead horse

Virtues are useful.  They allow the Exalted to do the impossible and mortals to do the improbable.  I would love it if you could boost virtue dice' date=' but I haven't, yet, figured out a good way.[/quote']
Sorry, forgot about that part; rolling Virtue dice to boost actions would turn into spending the willpower (like normal) and adding your essence in dice.  Younger exalts are weaker that way (and less vulnrible to the great curse), and elder exalts can exert greater force when they need to (but are more vulnrible to the great curse.)


As for "why write them out", I find that Virtues are the first problem I hear when I'm taking in new players.  They, myself, and the people I play with regularly see Virtues as a values they don't want.  The virtues look like something that had too much control over your character.  


Example: Valor.  Too low, and you probably can't (in character) face the undead, unless you waste willpower.  Too high, and you probably demand a duel anytime someone slights you.  


The folk I play with don't purchase virtues beyond the starting 5(9) base points.  I feel that the virtues are wasted space in our games, so i wanted to write around them.

 

[Seiraryu]

A low-Valor high-Conviction character could be terrified of the encroaching undead horde... but be filled with a need to press on, not because he's brave, but because he's set in his ways and knows what he has to do to get where he needs to be.


It's all about perspective.

 

[greasy golem gunk]

A low-Valor high-Conviction character could be terrified of the encroaching undead horde... but be filled with a need to press on, not because he's brave, but because he's set in his ways and knows what he has to do to get where he needs to be.
It's all about perspective.

But that doesn't address high values.  Sure, that sort of thing is a price to pay for extra dice, but those dice don't come into play very often (up to 5 times per virtue per story).


-greasy G

 

[Seiraryu]

So, twenty times per story.  Huh.  Seems like a lot to me.


Virtues aren't made to limit the character, they're there to add a guideline as to how the player envisions the character's morality.  If you want a high Valor Solar, you give him plenty of Valor.  If you think your DB wouldn't give a shit about people, you leave his Compassion at 1.  The problem comes when you start putting dice before role playing, and believing that the high essence pools and extra dice on Virtue'channeled rolls are worth the degradation of a character.