Potential

[leviathan999]

Is it just me, or did the Lunars get the shaft among the celestial exalted. There are 3 special institutions in exalted (that I know of, I haven't read all of the books as of this posting) Sorcery, Necromancy, and Martial arts. Barring an artifact, only Solars can reach the top level of sorcery. Same goes for Abyssals and necromancy. Marital Arts comes easily to Sidereals, but in that case Solars, Abyssals, and I'm assuming Infernals can learn the top levels if they can find a teacher.


Lunars are "too tainted by the wyld" to learn sidereal arts and can't even get near void circle. Outside of Larceny charms, no one else can shapeshift (again, that I know of) so it's not something that has the tiered ascension the way the others do.


Lunars are suppose to be the most versatile of the exalted but when it comes to potential they seem to have gotten the short end of the stick.


*note* I'm not trying to complain, I'm just wondering if there is something that I missed or a new way of looking at the situation.

 

[Dragonmystic]

Nope, you're not imagining things. White Wolf hates Lunars.


*I'm not an expert! Please take everything I say with a grain of salt!*


Okay, okay, it's more complicated than that. Each exalt is supposed to have its own main power. Solars are supposed to be pure awesome, and so have the best in everything, but yes, the sorcery is the most visable of this. Terrestrials have the best teamwork powers. Abyssals have the best necromancy. Sidereals have the best martial arts. Infernals are supposed to sacrifice something for being even more awesome than Solars in some respects.


Lunars are supposed to be the ultimate survivors, and the generalists. This makes a great NPC's. . .but not exactly good PC's since they often travel in groups of specialists. Also, it seems sad to say, but most of the Lunar charms tend to do less than the Solar equivilants, with increased mote and xp cost. (The exception being their ability to survive. Lunar Ox-body is the best.)


All rolled together, it makes Lunars pale in comparison.


Also, I don't know if this is really fair to say, but the way Lunars exalt really damages them, in a way that doesn't give them extra powers like Abyssals and Infernals. Solars exalt for being awesome. Terrestrials exalt because of blood. Sidereals exalt because fate says so. Abyssals exalt because they just refuse to stay dead. Infernals exalt for *almost* doing something awesome.


Lunars exalt for surviving something they really should not have, and rarely due to anything they did about it. That mentally scars people, even if you do get superpowers out of it. Survivor's guilt, fear of "the next time." it all adds up and damages the psyche. Not only that, but to actually use their only advantage, shapeshifting well, they have to tear a still living heart out of somebody and eat it. If that won't make you kinda insane, I don't know what will. While Abyssals and Infernals get hellish advantages for their mental trauma, Lunars do not. (Luna is crrraaaazzzy) They just get disadvantages.


Anway, despite/because of all this, Lunars are my favorites.

 

[Persell]

IIRC, Infernal exalts actually can't learn Sideral level martial arts. Something about how the Yozi made their exaltations so 'alien' that they are incapable of accessing the subtle aspects of creation one needs to use the styles.


And, Lunars don't really have it bad, they can get up to respectable levels in both sorcery and martial arts. And almost everyone is limited to the first level of necromancy. The only ones that can get to second level are abyssals, death lords, and solars. And only the former two can reach the highest level of it. And to go back to the infernals, I think they aren't able to learn necromancy at all because their yozi patrons don't want to go near their dead siblings.


However, while they can't reach the highest level in any of the 'anyone can learn it' stuff, they get knacks, which nobody else can learn at all. The closest are infernals and their various mutation charms (which tend to only be useful for combat), infernals also being limited in the 'everyone can learn these' department.

 

[Plague of Hats]

Marital Arts comes easily to Sidereals, but in that case Solars, Abyssals, and I'm assuming Infernals can learn the top levels if they can find a teacher.

Infernals cannot learn Sidereal martial arts at all.

Lunars are "too tainted by the wyld" to learn sidereal arts

That stuff is being quietly smothered with a pillow. Lunars just can't learn Sidereal martial arts; it has nothing to do with Wyld taint.

Lunars are suppose to be the most versatile of the exalted

Lunars are supposed to be the ultimate survivors, and the generalists.

The reason the Lunars seem to get the shaft, and do in a lot of cases, is because "the versatile survivor generalist" really isn't a meaningful thing for them to be. But that's what people try to use as their building material. That and "animals." Take a look at the most interesting and fun Charms they get, the majority of which live in two Ink Monkeys posts. Do any of those Charms obviously flow from such a bland "theme"? A "theme" that can be pretty easily taken to apply to nearly any type of Creation's Exalted, even the Abyssals?
The Lunars need more than that; they deserve more than that. They need to be vital and different. They will be, eventually.


This isn't the same as comparison-shopping for tiered powers, though. That's far too simple a metric to measure anything by, and the last thing Exalted needs is a mandate for point-balancing acts like that.

 

[Thanqol]

I consider this a feature, not a bug. Everyone looks down on the Lunars, and the Lunars resent them for it.


But the main reason Lunars seem crippled is because they've castrated their own development.


They've developed a 'cure' for Chimerism.


Chimerism is the avenue to ultimate Lunar power. Their voluntary denial of it is the reason they've never truly come into their own. People assume it's a curse because they don't understand just how crazy Luna is.

 

[leviathan999]

Thanqol:


Chimerism = Mindless beast = Ultimate power? Sorry, but you're going to have to explain that one to me. If it was just the mutations I could see what you mean, but the permanent limit and the mindlessness make me question you a bit.


Plague of Hats:


I haven't read the Infernal book. I was going off Scroll of the Monk and the White Tretises for saying what infernals could do. Sorry for the confusion. Also haven't read through Ink Monkey posts. Which charms do you mean?


Dragonmystic:

Not only that, but to actually use their only advantage, shapeshifting well, they have to tear a still living heart out of somebody and eat it. If that won't make you kinda insane, I don't know what will.

While it would certainly make a human insane, an animal doesn't have any issue with eat what it hunts down. Lunars are portrayed/expected to be at least part animal.


Thanks for all the feedback so far.

 

[Plague of Hats]

Also haven't read through Ink Monkey posts. Which charms do you mean?

21 and 27. There's a PDF compilation of all Ink Monkeys posts linked in my signature, as well.

 

[Thanqol]

Note: If you play in my games, don't read this (until Friday)

Thanqol:
Chimerism = Mindless beast = Ultimate power? Sorry, but you're going to have to explain that one to me. If it was just the mutations I could see what you mean, but the permanent limit and the mindlessness make me question you a bit.

It's an idea I've been playing with a lot in a lot of my games (and is noncanon). While one avenue to Chimerism is to become a mindless blarghle beast, there are other ways as well - a whole lot of transhuman paths available to the Lunars where they push their shapeshifting to bizarre and terrifying extremes. I've got a few examples:


Skyfall: This Lunar tried messing around with it's spirit shape. It carefully cultivated mutations over centuries, seeking it's ideal form. It became an enormous Dragon, and was devoted to refining it's shape even more, seeking perfection by realizing the idealized, perfect shape.


Rainfall Reflections: One of Skyfall's original circle mates, her Solar had a compassion flaw and, to make sure she never got hurt, rebuilt her as a moonsilver and jade construct. Rainfall later successfully Sacred Hunt'd Skyfall, becoming an enormous robotic moonsilver dragon and roughly the most powerful thing in the universe.

Spoiler

The Emissary of Nexus[/b]

: A Lunar Chimera. But not a Chimera mixed of 'Animal' and 'Freaky Wyld Shit', a Chimera mixed of 'Lunar' and 'City'.

 

[FluffySquirrel]

That's awesome Thanqol.. .. I'm also a fan of chimerism and other lunar weirdness, personally I think it has a lot of potential..


Once played a lunar who was a chimeric moonsilver daiklave. Intended as a no-moons own variation of Death at the Root, by tricking his lunar student into sacrificing himself for it. Except he changed his mind and was left as a sentient sword, which then got left in the wyld for a few thousand years.


Pretty fun to play, it's surprisingly easy to adapt the charmset to handle things like that.. took some of the chimerism knacks so that he could turn into liquid metal and devour anything with acid.. he could then slowly absorb other weapons to take their shapes. DBT of course turns him into a grand daiklave.


When I think of high level lunars, I always tend to think of Alucard from Hellsing... utterly crazy and monstrous.. and yet at the same time seeming in control and somewhat rational.. but when he needs too, just lets loose all kinds of scariness.

 

[Yakumo]

Short answer, I'll just grab the five of Dragonmystic's sentences from his first post on this thread.


Part of my problem is that WW gimped the Lunar in what was supposed to be their main strength. Yes they have shape-shifting. But the tell can and probably will out them for anyone with the right charm, and a number without it. So the non-combat is not so good. Even a low essence solar can just copy someone else. On top of that, the lunar gets restricted to true forms at modest anima banner bursts, which happens to make their tell more likely to be noticed when they out themselves as Lunars. In the beginning of his career, Havesh the Vanisher could always ditch one of his disguises if he could just get away after letting his anima banner go off.


Now do Solars suffer any loss of being the greatest from anima banner? Nope. Lose the ability to cast Adamant Circle Sorcery? Nope. The Sidereal resplendencies recede, but they keep them and (correct me if I'm wrong here) whatever effect they got from spending points. More important, all the ascending and descending astrology effects are themselves unaffected by anima banner. And that's without Sidereal MAs added in and some of the tightest charm trees around (no speed bumps and pretty good costs). I don't begrudge them the access to heaven and whatnot. They do need some basis for staying on top in the face of a Solar resurgence and being some of the longest lived, most experienced and with the most toys makes sense. But as for the rest, Sidereals show as a bit of favorites and Lunars as the red headed mongrel stepget.

 

[Mr. S]

Meh, at least they're not Autochthonians. I suspect those fellows can despair about getting much love from WW.


Frankly, I feel Lunars are plenty good. The tells are a real problem, but you can't use turning into an animal as a crutch when it comes to being stealthy. Clover can't be found is simply one of the best stealth charms in the entire game. Thinking about sneaking into the castle? Send a letter to the king telling him the time and date to expect you, with a picture of you. Problem solved with 1 charm and a moment's planning. Besides, they can do cool things like turn into a polar bear more or less for free, when considering xp costs. That's compared to a Solar, who wants to voyage into the north and must either spend a lot of time getting the proper clothing and a couple of charms. Or say you want to visit Lethe? Well, that's an easy trip. Compared to a Sidereal who certainly can't visit those vasty depths so cheaply. Anyways, what I'm saying is lunars, at least for starting characters, are balanced enough. Sure it might unbalance when you get to elder exalts, but frankly once you start spending xp in the hundreds players will have come up with some combo that beats the game pretty easily. Besides, I've always thought turning into mt. mostathe is better than a lot of the things you can do with high essence anyways.

 

[Thanqol]

Mr. S has it right - Lunars definitely seem on par with Essence 2-5 characters in my experience, and I justify the high essence disparity as them not delving deeply enough into Chimerism.

 

[chalicier]

I kinda see where you're coming from with the chimerism, Thanquol - my own take on the Lunar charmset is that its limitations are kinda thematic, in that there's only so much super-power you can drag out of the animal kingdom. It doesn't really matter of how many tigers the Ghost Who Walks calls forth the power from, he's still not going to be able to beat up He-Man.


High-end Lunar Charms, in my head, begin to transcend animal principles and move towards a synchronicity with the Lunar's surroundings. In my way of looking at it, a high-Essence Lunar in a forest becomes an entirely different entity to the same Lunar in a desert.

 

[Thanqol]

I kinda see where you're coming from with the chimerism, Thanquol - my own take on the Lunar charmset is that its limitations are kinda thematic, in that there's only so much super-power you can drag out of the animal kingdom. It doesn't really matter of how many tigers the Ghost Who Walks calls forth the power from, he's still not going to be able to beat up He-Man.
High-end Lunar Charms, in my head, begin to transcend animal principles and move towards a synchronicity with the Lunar's surroundings. In my way of looking at it, a high-Essence Lunar in a forest becomes an entirely different entity to the same Lunar in a desert.

Oh, that's very cool. But that's still to me one avenue, and there are many more.


Here are some more ideas!


- Lunar who develops his shapeshifting into outright possession


- Lunar who begins Sacred Hunting stars


- Lunar who Sacred Hunts diseases

 

[Cryoseraph]

If the Lunars were to be examined, they would at first fall into the category of 'less potential'. Mostly because their biggest unique power, shapeshifting, is naturally limited or empowered by the ST and the small amount of information published on 'beasts' and other Sacred Hunt targets. They are also the only regular Exalt types to run off of attributes, and therefore have their power organization work differently. By having their charms spread across solid concepts instead of abstract abilities, they are limited by what the concept actually is. Occult charms cover sorcery, dealing with spirits, thaumaturgy, essence flows, etc. But does Perception feel limited because it only covers that and Awareness-like powers? Shouldn't Appearance have more than 9 charms total?


The other aspect of uniqueness that should be fleshed out more is their ability to do the impossible. Clover Can't be Found is so incredible because it works specifically BECAUSE the person is looking for you. A casual glancer should spot you easy, but that Solar with Investigation 8 and Charms has to pull out the big Essence just to break your perfect effect. Eye of the Cat lets you see something ONLY IF it is impossible to spot normally. If you had a shot, no effect. We need the impossibility of Luna put into more charms. We need the certain fate of sidereal powers flat-out ignored by a Lunar power. We need the Lunar to be the one seducing an Abyssal or Infernal to the 'right way' of thinking.


Of course, the problem with the impossible is thinking it up in the first place. It isn't the easy out of Solars: Perfection solves everything. It has to twist the ideas on their head "Force a command to be impossible by MAKING it Impossible" is an awesome way to pull off tricks like that, we just need more ways to do it. Disarm a guy by absorbing the weapon he stabbed you with into your body. Craft an item by growing it instead of using tools or force upon it. Lead an army into battle by pretending to be their target. Literally learn to fly by missing the ground. That is what Lunars should do.


As for a shtick, if the idea of disguises came up more, Lunars would obviously be at the top. Sidereals give them a hard run with destinies, and probably match them with the broken Mask, but not purposefully. This ironically puts Solars lowest on the Celestial totem pole, as why would Solars want to hide? Sure they have larceny & stealth charms, the Night anima power helps too. But compared to being anyone in fate or using anyone's face, it is a little on the short side. So, the trick isn't to match them in Sorcery, or in Martial Arts, its to match them at the spy game. And while the circumstances for spies are less in the second age, there are still plenty of reasons for it, and a First Age game of some proper spycraft, with Sidereal Q-style backup and the funding of a solar, hoo-boy that could be a good game.

 

[Virjigorm]

Lunars do get two things that no one seems to have mentioned; the Gift and Fury-OK keywords. These charms get around the normal combo rules to give the Lunar warrior impressive speed and ferocity, even by Solar standards.


I think the majority of Lunar advantages are a little harder to see than others' because they seem to be mostly mechanical, rather than thematic. Solars have the biggest piles of awesome. Sidereals have the most fingers in the most pies. DBs have potentially unlimited numbers.


Lunars, in contrast, have only 9 Attributes to buy Excellencies for. They also have the ability to take useful shapes at no exp cost. At the same exp level, a Lunar has the potential to be really good at a lot more things than any other Exalt. They cannot be perfect, but they can be supernaturally great, and at nearly everything at the same time.


One other thing...Chimerism was not part of the original Lunar design. They had five Castes and no tattoos before their exile to the Wyld. I think the idea that these unrivaled survivalists have been damaged as a result of enduring that hardship is a key theme in the Silver Pact as a whole. You can focus on the damage, take solace in the spirit of tenacity, or play up the idea that the whole thing was EVERYONE ELSE'S FAULT!! No matter what angle you pick, Lunars are packed full of great role-playing material.

 

[wordman]

In my 1E game (where lunars are even more shafted than in 2E) I decided that even though lunars still could only master up to celestial circle sorcery, they could do so more easily than others. Mechanically, I cut the xp cost to learn spells for lunars almost in half.


At the same time, I pretty much required that any lunar wanting to get this bonus to learn sorcery could only do so by training with the Silver Pact, and that this comes with even more obligations than usual.


If I did this in 2E, I'd probably add a new "school" (similar to the Salinan school) specific to the Silver Pact.


Also, don't underestimate the tricks lunars can learn from the FairFolk.

 

[Persell]

On stealth, think of it like this. Turn into a mouse, or a raven, or some other random common critter. How many people are even going to bother paying what is essentially mobile 'scenery' enough attention to even get the chance to see your tell and get the chance to break the illusion effect?

 

[Persell]

To elaborate on 'being scenery'.


In the market- Just about everything counts as scenery, really. You don't have to try to hard not to stand out. Just don't go around tossing charms and leave your demon slave at home and you are golden.


In the woods- Humans are no longer scenery, any human you run into is most likely going to get at least some focus just for being a break in the monotony. All the woodland critters and the plants on the other hand, not so much. Guess which exalt can become animals and plants? Same goes for most other 'wild' environments.


In the underworld- Dead crap is everywhere, but guess which exalt type can turn into a ghost with their shape shifting powers to fit right in instead of sticking out with their being alive-ness?


Malfeas-A lot like the above, one of the comics in Return of the Scarlet Empress even shows a lunar stealing a demon's form to great effect.


They also have the advantage in most random scenarios that make disguise difficult. Paranoid sorceror that never interacts directly with anything but his summoned elementals and demons? Eat one when he sends it on an errand and waltz right on in through that front door. If you didn't just turn into a fly and go through a crack in the wall.


Also, at people complaining about being 'locked' in your true forms when your anima flares. The moment you start projecting a silvery aura in the shape of some growling animal, any attempts at stealth are pretty much screwed anyway.

 

[Kyeudo]

Also, at people complaining about being 'locked' in your true forms when your anima flares. The moment you start projecting a silvery aura in the shape of some growling animal, any attempts at stealth are pretty much screwed anyway.

Yes, but some of the Rat Totem Lunars would like to stay in Polar Bear form while fighting.

 

[LaFreeze]

Also, at people complaining about being 'locked' in your true forms when your anima flares. The moment you start projecting a silvery aura in the shape of some growling animal, any attempts at stealth are pretty much screwed anyway.

Yes, but some of the Rat Totem Lunars would like to stay in Polar Bear form while fighting.

Seems like in that case it would be better to take a Polar Bear totem then and just change into a rat when out of combat.

 

[Kyeudo]

Seems like in that case it would be better to take a Polar Bear totem then and just change into a rat when out of combat.

What if I'm normally stealth focused?

 

[LaFreeze]

Seems like in that case it would be better to take a Polar Bear totem then and just change into a rat when out of combat.

What if I'm normally stealth focused?

Oh well then go with the Rat and then just teach 4 other Lunars with Turtle Totems the ways of martial arts to defend you.

 

[Persell]

Also, at people complaining about being 'locked' in your true forms when your anima flares. The moment you start projecting a silvery aura in the shape of some growling animal, any attempts at stealth are pretty much screwed anyway.

Yes, but some of the Rat Totem Lunars would like to stay in Polar Bear form while fighting.

War form is a true form, last I checked. Use that.

 

[Plague of Hats]

War form is a true form, last I checked. Use that.

The amazing capacity of the protean Lunars to effectively have three usable shapes. One of which is almost always just a hybridization of the other two.