Other MBTI/Cognitive Functions

[Tronethiel]

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@White Masquerade I thought it would be fun to drag you out of the woodworks on this subject and pick your brain. <img alt=" " data-emoticon="" height="20" src="<fileStore.core_Emoticons>/emoticons/smile.png" srcset="<fileStore.core_Emoticons>/emoticons/smile@2x.png 2x" title=" " width="20" /> I could've pm'ed you, but I thought this would be fun if other people who were interested in MBTI/Cognitive Functions wanted to join in on the discussion. A fairly complex conversation I saw between you and another (Architect/Pariah?) user about six months ago really sparked my interest on the topic, but I didn't start studying it until the last couple of weeks. Once I realized understanding functions was more important than being typed by a test, it became much more compelling to think about. It also seems like understanding functions could enable you to make effective change in the way you approach/perceive situations, as well as to foster an environment that plays to one's strengths and general satisfaction with life, etc. That said I'm still a bit hazy on typing myself, though I do have a ballpark guess. Anyway, don't feel obligated to come chat about this. All others are welcome to jump in and contribute I'm still a fledgling with it, but I'm excited to get more resources and improve my understanding of the construct.


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[White Masquerade]

This is no problem at all. I'd love to talk about the cognitive functions behind MBTI. It always makes me sad when people disregard it because of the silly tests they find online. If I could pick one thing that's really helped me out in my life, it'd have to be my understanding of the cognitive functions.


I can vouch for the notion that it can enable one to make effective change in the way they approach/perceive situations. It's also very freeing to know where your strengths and weaknesses lie. When things get rough, you have this core of stability & self-confidence in knowing exactly what you can do. You can't get mad or upset at yourself for sucking in something that's just not your natural-born strength.


The best way to learn the functions is what you're doing now. Asking someone who knows of them as well as doing your own research!


As for your type, did you ballpark INTP, ENTP? I can see you have high-level Introverted thinking from your posts here and others. From when we last spoke, I am fairly certain you also have high-level Extroverted Intuition, so that narrows things down to 4 types: ENTP, INTP, ESFJ, and ISFJ.


Any of those 4 what you thought?

 

[Tronethiel]

[QUOTE="White Masquerade]This is no problem at all. I'd love to talk about the cognitive functions behind MBTI. It always makes me sad when people disregard it because of the silly tests they find online. If I could pick one thing that's really helped me out in my life, it'd have to be my understanding of the cognitive functions.
I can vouch for the notion that it can enable one to make effective change in the way they approach/perceive situations. It's also very freeing to know where your strengths and weaknesses lie. When things get rough, you have this core of stability & self-confidence in knowing exactly what you can do. You can't get mad or upset at yourself for sucking in something that's just not your natural-born strength.


The best way to learn the functions is what you're doing now. Asking someone who knows of them as well as doing your own research!


As for your type, did you ballpark INTP, ENTP? I can see you have high-level Introverted thinking from your posts here and others. From when we last spoke, I am fairly certain you also have high-level Extroverted Intuition, so that narrows things down to 4 types: ENTP, INTP, ESFJ, and ISFJ.


Any of those 4 what you thought?

[/QUOTE]
You certainly know your stuff. Yes, the only two types I've actually gotten while testing were INFP and ENFP, and from what I can gather, that's fairly close to home. It's sort of difficult because I think I'm really close to the border, but the more I mull it over, INFP seems right. The way that I'm framing these sentences seems to reinforce that. Introversion/Extroversion on the system is strange to me and I find that I am very much both depending on the situation.


It seems that various sites like to frame the different personality types in terms of how they tend to act. From what I can gather, however, that seems fallacious because all that extra information draws too much attention away from the actual process (vs the manifestations of said process which can look very different). Archetypes seem useful to an extent but potentially misleading. Does that seem right?


I was wondering if you had any sources to recommend. Most of the ones I've seen focus on the actual MBTI types, but I've not read much that breaks down the categories, explains each individual process, etc, etc. I think starting at a molecular level would make over-arcing concepts of the types come to life for me. Thanks for coming out and sharing!

 

[White Masquerade]

Yep. The tests are asking questions about outside behavior, which is strange because the same outside behavior can actually be a result of two very different inside motivations. Like someone robbing a bank because the bank owner screwed them over in the past, or someone robbing a bank because their family desperately needs the funds. Motivations is what needs to be focused on. Not outside behavior.


I ask that you disregard your test results because even I don't test as the type I am ( "). You say INFP/ENFP you've gotten as results, but I don't get that from you at all. In truth, at one point another, everyone will feel multiple types are "us" since all types have every function. The order and strength of the functions, is what differentiates the types.


Extroversion/Introversion is one of the biggest trip-ups with MBTI. In Cognitive Functions, there's no such thing as an Introverted or Extroverted person. You just have outward-facing functions and inward-facing functions. It just so happens if you have an outward-facing function first in your way of living, you're more likely to be an extroverted person since you pay more attention to the outside world.


Archetypes are very useful, but are hard to understand if you don't know how the functions interact with each other. The Tumblr-FunkyMBTIfiction is good, as well as the site PersonalityJunkie, and OddlyDevelopedTypes. The Youtube Series on the Functions by DaveSuperPowers is what you should check out first. <--- That will be a rude but much appreciated awakening =P.


Finally, yes. I do believe you are INTP now. Check that type out in Dave's videos and let me know what you think. I've been around so many INTPs that recognizing their unique speech is like second-nature.

 

[Tronethiel]

[QUOTE="White Masquerade]
Finally, yes. I do believe you are INTP now. Check that type out in Dave's videos and let me know what you think. I've been around so many INTPs that recognizing their unique speech is like second-nature.

[/QUOTE]
Wow, you might be even better than I thought. 0_0


After watching some of the videos and reading extensively on Personality Junkie, I think I discovered a few things. My confusion about being an INFP seemed to come from my perception of the INFP archetype which was being informed by the Ne-Si (Auxiliary-Tertiary) that INTPs share with INFPs (just in reverse). Not to mention the poorly explained archetype I read of INTP the first time. Regardless, this leads to similar doubts and insecurities for INFPs and INTPs, hence my confusion.


Another thing I believe was throwing me off was a misunderstanding of inferior function (INTPs having Fe) and certain life circumstances that have allowed me to develop my Fe more than might be expected. Apparently, INFPs are frequently referred to as "Mediators" due to their capacity for emotional support/guidance. I think that during times when I've found myself caught between friends who lacked sympathy for one another and there was no mediator to be found, my Fe compelled me to engage my Ti as a mechanism to more deeply understand the misunderstandings that my friend were having and assist reconciliation so that I could maintain the status quo and satisfy my Fe. (I'm not sure if that made any sense.) I was also primarily raised by my mother who strikes me as Fe dominant. It's possible that I improved Fe through years of observing and interacting with an Fe master. Regardless, my abnormal Fe level due to whatever circumstance didn't jive with archetype descriptions I was reading.


I am now a pretty big fan of Personality Junkie. After reading the fairly extensive INTP breakdown and the effect/manifestation of each function as an independent part, I would be hard pressed to identify with another type. The accuracy of some of the observations about an INTPs more obsure and confusing though patterns really hit home for me. I also read the INFP profile and that greatly aided my understanding of why they might be confused with one another.


This is a lot of fun.

 

[White Masquerade]

Yess! There you go. It was the Ne-Si making things murky. Which is understandable as you've mentioned; since INTP share those functions with INFP. Ne is a very...tenuous function if you don't really try hard to keep a good grip on it. You may have read it somewhere on PersonalityJunkie, but those who are diagnosed with ADD/ADHD, may not necessarily have it. They might just have overactive Ne. You see how giving that person drugs can be seen as a questionable move? It's a very tricky issue.


Your second paragraph! Gah! I love it! You get it! I expect nothing less from you! Not all people of the same type will be the same. Cognitive functions just covers 50% of the equation. Life experience covers the other. I have had to develop my third function due to circumstances, so to others, it comes across as if it's my dominant. What you're saying makes perfect sense (at least to me). That is why the archetypes are no good if you don't understand the functions. In addition to the archetypes, they should have sub-types, going into how a person appears when their 3rd or 4th function is strong in addition to their 1st.


What's cool is something called function tandems. Ti is always with Fe and Te is always with Fi. If you find one, you know the other is automatically there somewhere. What caught me off guard was that I could see both your Ti AND Fe clearly. As opposed to the straight Ti INTP I come across, it is very easy to speak with you. I can get on with the stereotypical INTP (they make me sigh though), but I much prefer those who have healthy Fe. I am very happy you nailed down the type. Please use what you know to do amazing things! That Ti of INTP, is something I'm very jealous of.


With all of that said, I've been very vague with my own type on purpose. What do you think I am?

 

[Tronethiel]

Aw, it sucks that you asked this question because I recalled what you were. Earlier today I went back and looked through that thread I was speaking of (from 6 months ago). Unless you've changed your mind. ENFP. I probably wouldn't be able to guess in good conscience since I'd feel like I was biased/cheating. That said, without hindsight, I don't know that I would have guessed anyway since I haven't studied many of the concepts sufficiently.


That said,with hindsight


I can definitely see that Ne-Fi-Te at work.


Your forward perception about my perceived capabilities and your seeming excitement at what I might accomplish seems to be driven by Ne for sure. Furthermore, your digging to truly understand and jive with the notion of Cognitive Process despite MBTI as it manifests shows a preoccupation with depth of implication rather than the explicit state of things, another seemingly Ne affinity.


Furthermore, auxiliary Fi could definitely lead to a focus on self understanding/discovery which led you to seeking out cognitive processes in the first place, hence the motivation you had to really dig and develop a robust understanding of the situation. Not to mention that you seem very capable of stating how you feel in explicit terms which indicates two things. 1) That you are confident about how you feel and have spent a good bit of time considering it (Fi) and 2) You are able to share bluntly about internal things that Fi might not willingly give up, BUT you said you've developed Te which reduces your threshold for communicating your internal process. The Te development is also evident in the way that you empirically confirmed my Ti and Fe as a method of typing me.


I presume at least some of that might be misguided. I'm looking forward to reading more extensively about each process, type, etc.


Also, wow, I just read this on PJ and it blew my mind:


"Te packages and preserves data and information in its original form, allowing INTJs, ENTJs, and STJs to recall facts, dates, names, numbers, and procedures with striking accuracy. INTPs, by contrast, rely on Introverted Thinking (Ti), which is more fluid in nature and less adept with regard to fact retention."


I've actually been thinking about how and I'm horrible with regards to remembering specifics/data, but my recall is catalyzed when I begin revisiting a systemic train of thought, even before I started reading about cognitive processes. I will suddenly find myself recalling a flood of interlinked concepts/ideas as I'm following the old train of though, but it is difficult for me to just pull up a piece of information without exploring its relevant context first. Wonderful.


I'm also excited because the owner of PJ is an INTP and it seems to be the one he understands best (obviously). He's written an extensive book on the intricacies of INTP that has a ton of great reviews. I'm psyched to give it a read.

 

[White Masquerade]

Haha, that's alright if you saw what I was before-hand. The explanation of why ENFP is what I looking for and it's good. Very good. That was very good. None of it was misguided. You were spot on about every single piece. An INTP in the zone, is very capable and very scary (Did you know that's what Albert Einstein was?).


Yes. That Ti + Si makes INTP very good at their particular brand of thinking. It's a kind of thinking only they can do and that's why each type is special in some way. Not even the ISTP's Ti can compare when it comes to anything mental.


Haha you caught that the author was INTP =). Is is true. You lot have a lot of serious potential. Just need somebody with strong Te (and good self-awareness) and maybe Se to partner with, and you two will really be able to change the world in both big and small ways.


Linking it with RP, this is how you know who to Co-GM with. You can tell which ones are Te-run or Ti-run. Where a function is weak and may lead to some problems in the role-play. When you sit back and take it all in, it's really some amazing stuff. It's almost a cheat code.


As for the book, I hope you enjoy it! I'd love to be able to get and read through, but as you can guess, my head's already bouncing around toward other things =P

 

[Tronethiel]

The more we chat about this, the more psyched I'm getting. My Ne is about to have a stroke, haha.


I didn't even think about the application gm'ing, and wow, the implications for creating teams in general! *starts to vibrate* You have given me quite the load to process.


Oh man, the lack of Te is a huge issue for me, I think. A lack of structure/discipline as well as overactive Ne (which I'm pretty sure I probably have to some extent now that you mentioned it) are both contributors for my capacity to take action instead of just executing tasks. FREQUENTLY.


Here's a question: Do you think it is possible for the earlier (atypical) development of lesser functions to stifle or distract from the effectiveness of higher functions? In many ways, I appreciate my decent Fe but I think that it can actually act as a distractor when my Ne is running wild and freaking me out about how directionless I feel (which causes a desire to dissociate and avoid most Ti pursuits altogether). Thus, I basically engage Fe to ignore or overextend my Ti in ways that are less satisfying to me). Or, on the other hand, my Fe maybe be somewhat developed, but if I could develop it more, it would compensate and I would stop using it as a crutch . I don't know. Hmmm.


I just want you to know how much I appreciate you entertaining my curiosity and internal ramblings en masse. Your explanations and recommendations have greatly improved my understanding in a very short period of time. This is a jumping off point that will save many headaches.

 

[White Masquerade]

You are welcome! I appreciate being able to speak with someone about this. IRL, I don't get the chance to meet many Ne-Intuitives. Mainly Sensors and SJs galore.


You are absolutely correct. The developing of lesser functions can stifle the effectiveness of higher functions. For you, developing Fe is nice, but Fe is still your last function. You shouldn't be using it as if it's your first. That dissonance tears your brain apart. With me and Te, I love it, I love using that function, but I recognize I shouldn't be leading with that. I shouldn't be creating flowcharts, graphs, and cost-benefit anaylses about random things.


The correct & safest way to strengthen your 3/4th function, is to do it through your 1/2nd. For me to strengthen Te, I search through what I see for something interesting (Ne). Then I latch onto something I feel particularly strongly about (Fi). Using that feeling, I then find ways to execute and make the change I want to see (Te). I would then do my best to maintain it and make sure it stays to what I perceive (Si).

^-- See why ENFP are sometimes called Advocates or Champions?--^

​

So to build Si and Fe, don't do it willy-nilly; that's going to kill you. First go through your thoughts and intuitions (Ti+ Ne) and the lower functions will come and be used naturally.

 

[Tronethiel]

ENFPs seem rare and wondrous indeed. I'm glad that you've learned love your Te. A lack of Te in my type is somewhat infuriating. I am frequently incapable of getting anything for the lack of it. I am increasingly convinced that my Ne running wild is causing me to feel overwhelmed.


Also, it occurs to me that I'm so intrigued by Cognitive Functions because they provide a perfect model for my Ti to latch onto when interacting with Fe. If I can effectively approach my Fe from that perspective, it could help me reign in my Fe. That damned Fe, part of me has learned to cherish the closeness it allows me have, but I'm beginning to realize how much it's contributing to a lack of forward movement.


Model: Ti needs something to latch onto > Ne provides alskdfja;sdlfjas; possibilities > Ti wtfs > Tron escapes to Fe to distract from the paralysis.


Si is still weird to me. Sensing in general. I'm 100% sure how to understand it in the scheme of things, though I'm very aware of inner sensations, so it fit.


What is the most profound or impactful thing you've derived from your MBTI studies?

 

[White Masquerade]

@Tronethiel


Ah, well each type has its challenges, so really, there will be some bad you have to figure how to get around or live with. That's where knowing you type shines. It allows you to apply strategies to yourself to make you as effective and well-rounded as possible. That knowledge is intangible, you don' quite understand what it does for you, but it's irreplaceable. I'll save a few of your comments for the end of my reply.


Haha. Well this is where after learning about cognitive functions, you have to direct your own growth. The functions give you all the different paths, but it's up to you which way you want to walk. You can be the stereotypical INTP and leave Fe for later, digging your head miles into what most people don't bother pondering. You can split yourself between Ti + Ne and become someone who's more a philosopher, that gets people to open their mind to different aspects of a subject they haven't considered. You can build Si and become a strong thinker people can depend on. Someone stable who's not flighty/fanciful, but can be a reliable cornerstone/rock for whatever they're in charge of. Last but not least, you can stay the route you're on with the Fe, and become somebody who can communicate their observations well, getting people to buy into the conclusions you've come to.


Regardless, whatever route you choose, in old age, all the functions you have should be at a decent level if nothing catastrophic has happened. So don't fret over possibly missing a function. It's all a matter of what you want to be proficient in RIGHT NOW. Of course, certain life circumstances won't give you the chance to choose what function you need to get on during that point in time. Hence why I've learned Te early. It's a trade-off. Sure my Ne isn't as strong as a normal ENFP's, but I assure you I can execute circles around them with still pretty-okay intuition involved. So you also have to consider what you get in return. If you didn't have such a developed Fe, I'm certain we wouldn't be talking still. This is a good thing. I look forward your responses. I will admit I like speaking with you.




As for your Ti liking the system of Cognitive functions; yup. It's a bevy of good info for your Ti/Fe to munch on. It;s funny to hear you feel love for yet disdain over Fe. That's usually how the inferior works. I have a love/hate relationship with my Si. Yeah, Se and Si in particular is hard to explain. Si is as I was saying before, predictability. It is the direct opposite to Ne. Si wants a past pattern to continue. It is traditional. It does not like change. It is a subjective perception. Ans Se user would see a red scarf and think about how grandma always wore a red scarf when she came over each winter while she was alive. An Se user would say that scarf doesn't viually mix well with the person's purple shirt. So remember. Si = Subjective Sensation / Se = Objective Sensation. Extroverted = Objective. Introverted = Subjective.


Ti = Subjective Thinking (I think it works like this)


Te = Objective Thinking (This is how it's supposed to go if you want to get x)


Fi = Subjective Feeling (I feel)


Fe = Objective Feeling (You/they/I/we should feel)


and etc..




Good question! The most profound/impactful thing I've derived from it was a guide of what I could do. Specifically, my top 3 functions. It was very difficult committing to anything always wondering whether I could do it or not. If I had the skills for it or not. Like a being on a large island and not even knowing where you were on that island. Knowing my functions gave me an incredible point of reference for myself. It let me say, "Okay, so this is where I am. So I need to get here, over the river, and then trek across the pink mountain to get there." Having direction was the biggest thing for me.


I'm not afraid to take on projects; Te handles that.


I'm not afraid to think big; Ne will always give me something good and profound to go on. Probably something most people never even saw the connection to.


I'm not afraid to make a tough decision; Fi makes sure I'll always pick the option I won't hate myself for.


Si though...LOL. I struggle with that so we can go over that when you have questions on inferiors.




Finally, you may not have all the functions you want, but look at you've got and maximize the hell out of them to do what you want. My preferred choice is Ne + Te. The successful execution of outlandish ideas is basically what I'm all about. Come to me with something stupid you believe will never work, and I'll do my darnedest to find the links and make sure it does.


I would love, love, love to go over what you could possibly do yourself if you're interested. My mind is yearning for the challenge, lol.

 

[Captifate]

This conversation reminds of the Enneagram. It differs from the MBTI model in that it focuses on people's flaws and how they manifest in daily life. It also provides advice on how to move past said character flaws. Essentially, you have 9 types and 3 triads, each type possessing a differing combination of the triads.


For example, type 2s are feeling (as opposed to instinctive or thinking), resort to compliancy (versus withdrawal or assertion), and cope with a positive outlook (instead of focusing on competency or reactivity).


Just to go into a little more detail, type 2s have a lot of love and compassion for others—because they themselves didn't receive enough nurturing and their basic desire is to be loved.


8s are instinctive, assertive, and reactive. They're domineering and bold out of the subconscious desire to control everything around them out of fear that they will be betrayed.


Note, everyone has some aspect of the 9 types in them; it's just that one manifests the most. There are also 9 levels associated with each type: 4 through 6 are considered the average. Dipping into 7 or lower leads into pathology and dysfunction. For example, type 8s at their worst are associated with antisocial personality disorder. Now, conversely, 8s who have mastered their fears become charismatic leaders who motivate others to accomplish their full potential (the 1-3 range).

 

[White Masquerade]

@Captifate


No, no, we are talking about 2 different things here. Where Tro and I have gone is way beyond the MBTI. The MBTI is rubbish. We're discussing Cognitive functions. I've also looked over Enneagram but it's not as extensive or insightful as Cognitive Functions. Enneagram is a broad system that doesn't really give you the tools to do anything.


It's like saying, "You're going to be more aggressive because you don't like to be belittled."


^ Okay, that is nice to know, but what exactly can I do about it? Enneagram does not answer those underlying questions the functions can give you more insight to.

 

[Tronethiel]

@Tronethiel[/URL]
Finally, you may not have all the functions you want, but look at you've got and maximize the hell out of them to do what you want. My preferred choice is Ne + Te. The successful execution of outlandish ideas is basically what I'm all about. Come to me with something stupid you believe will never work, and I'll do my darnedest to find the links and make sure it does.


I would love, love, love to go over what you could possibly do yourself if you're interested. My mind is yearning for the challenge, lol.

Yes, I would love to do this and continue discussion of the functions. Due to this recent job change I've still been a bit back and forth on my RPN interaction, but I'm still very much interested. I've been trying to work my way through more material on the functions in the mean time. It's quite a bit to internalize. I've found attempts to type friends on the fly to be...difficult and perplexing.

 

[White Masquerade]

Yes, I would love to do this and continue discussion of the functions. Due to this recent job change I've still been a bit back and forth on my RPN interaction, but I'm still very much interested. I've been trying to work my way through more material on the functions in the mean time. It's quite a bit to internalize. I've found attempts to type friends on the fly to be...difficult and perplexing.

Hey, I'm still tracking down my missed notifs. Sorry about this.


Anyway, typing friends is very easy when you know what to look for. Though I suggest to only type people when you have to. You don't want to become somebody who starts trying to manipulate people. If you do Tro, I will have to hunt you down and dispose of you =).


The best thing to look for is the Fi or Fe dynamic. In the simplest terms, it's basically self-focused vs. others-focused. Do they take care of themselves first and foremost, or do they seriously consider others (Feeling-Wise). If you see Fe, then they automatically have Ti. If you see Fi, then they automatically have Te.


This is where it gets hard. Finding the intuition and sensing function. Ni vs. Ne is narrow/closed curiosity versus wide/open curiosity IMO. The ones who have tons of ideas coming out and ask questions about 4 or 5 different things regarding 1 subject probably have Ne. They are a bit zany. Which is understandable. Their minds easily see the connections between different subjects and want to explore how far those links go. I can't say much on Ni except that if you meet a person that is NOT zany/quick about ideas, they probably have Ni.


Si vs. Se is more closed experience versus open experience. An Se user would wear something because it's popular to, while an Si user may not because to them, it feels ugly. Si users are more likely to have routines, while Se users are more open to changing things up. I am an Si user and do follow a routine. If that routine is interrupted, I do feel a bit unnerved. A friend of mine has dominant Se. They like to go and do things at the drop of a hat just because they need that new stimulus. They want something fun and new to do. I couldn't imagine living my life like that, but it is perfectly normal to my friend.

 

[White Masquerade]

I unfortunately don't have any high Ni friends IRL, but @ClaveVesari on this I believe may be ISFP. I don't know if they'd like to share their mode of living so you can get some clues on that.