Incarna Vs Primordials

orionstark1482

orionstark1482

Junior Member
if primordials are so powerful how could an army of exalts even if they were high essence beings like deathlords ever beat them?
 
That is the true question isn't it? Well, it's explicitly stated several times in the 1e and 2e books that Autochthon gave them the weapons and magic to kill them. ^_^
 
I'd say sheer number and two Primordials working for gods and Exalts.


There were no more than 30 Primordials and, say, what's it? 700 Celestial Exalts? And about a quarter million Dragon-Blooded if I remember correctly...


EDIT: Blah on Wake. :(


And uh, I think I'll use the Most August Execution of Thread-Hijacking combo and ask a question related to the thread title.


Well, I was working on something concerning Autochthon, the First Age, an alternative timeline and Autochthon getting mighty pissed. In it, I was going to have Autochthon install a seal between Creation and Yu-Shan, thus ripping the Loom of Fate (and the influence of Sidereals naturally) from Creation and prayers and... stuff from Yu-Shan. Then, uh, could the Incarna + other gods undo what Autochthon has created? Well, Incarna without a source of prayer...


And I thus activate Shameless Self-Advertisement Discipline and beg you to check out what that shit is. :?
 
sssssz said:
I'd say sheer number and two Primordials working for gods and Exalts.
There were no more than 30 Primordials and, say, what's it? 700 Celestial Exalts? And about a quarter million Dragon-Blooded if I remember correctly...


EDIT: Blah on Wake. :(
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good point. but i guess the question i really wonder is how do the Incarna stack up to them? could the Unconquered sun take on Ebon Dragon?
 
orionstark1482 said:
good point. but i guess the question i really wonder is how do the Incarna stack up to them? could the Unconquered sun take on Ebon Dragon?
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I'd say... the Incarna, especially the Unconquered Sun, are about to hit Primordials powerlevel. Though I'm not sure if he can ruin Ebon Dragon's shit... And that's not counting the fact gods are forbidden to directly offend a Primordial.
 
sssssz said:
orionstark1482 said:
good point. but i guess the question i really wonder is how do the Incarna stack up to them? could the Unconquered sun take on Ebon Dragon?
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I'd say... the Incarna, especially the Unconquered Sun, are about to hit Primordials powerlevel. Though I'm not sure if he can ruin Ebon Dragon's shit... And that's not counting the fact gods are forbidden to directly offend a Primordial.
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i think that after the Primordials were turned into Yozis that rule went out the door.
 
Nope, not really. Sure, they can summon them, but can't harm them. Besides, the Primordials swore on their names, not hte Incarnas...so technically they're only really bound by their own power. Which they have full grasp of...
 
orionstark1482 said:
if primordials are so powerful how could an army of exalts even if they were high essence beings like deathlords ever beat them?
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The Primordials themselves are powerful.  However, they are ALSO divided into a host of weaker entities which make up who and what they are.  Imagine that your heart, lungs, stomach, etc. were all independently alive as well as being your internal organs.  The Exalted attacked those pieces, one by one, changing who the Primordials were in the process, making them beings who could be imprisoned.
 
memesis said:
The Primordials themselves are powerful.  However, they are ALSO divided into a host of weaker entities which make up who and what they are.
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Exactly. Could your circle of solars beat a third circle demon? Could several circles of solars? Reapeat that a dozen or so times, and you have a dead Primordial.
 
Technically, the Gods were created unable to directly affect the Primordials.  Not as an effect of any swear, but how they were actually made.  


The only thing preventing the Yozi from coming back and putting a foot up the ass of the Creation is their own promise not to--and in the Exalted universe, a promise means a lot.  The Incarna didn't bind the Yozi, the Primordials bound themselves.


I would take some exception to the idea that the Incarna are any where near the power level of the Primordials.  They are still creatures of the Creation, and bound to it.  Not so much the Primordials, who are only bound by their own names, and their own power.  The Gods are still their creations, and while they might have found a way to slip a technicality in the works--they Exalted critters who had the free will to do what they couldn't.  They could advise, they could point out possible places to hit, they could inspire, but they couldn't actually take the field themselves.  


If the Primordials ever return, the smart Primordial will bypass the Creation entirely for a while.  Go straight to Yu-Shan and kick their unruly brat childrens' asses every which way, and then a couple more for good measure, and then turn their attention to the Creation--because the Primordials have got a mad going on.
 
You make a whole Creation, get the rivers flowing, populate it with critters, make all sorts of Gods and Spirits to keep the thing running right, and create a Heaven to hang out, so that you can take some leisure time and enjoy not fighting with Rakasha and are satisfied with a job well done, and then your management team does an end run on you, brings in some ringers to leverage you out of your Creation, kill a couple of your homies, and force you swear to take a powder to the Elsewhere, where you have to create a home out of each other, essentially live inside each other, and still have to dispatch slices of yourself back to the Creation that you built, wouldn't you be a little miffed?


Call them Yozi, but in the end, they're still the Primordials, all twisted up, bound up, and pissed.
 
wordman said:
memesis said:
The Primordials themselves are powerful.  However, they are ALSO divided into a host of weaker entities which make up who and what they are.
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Exactly. Could your circle of solars beat a third circle demon? Could several circles of solars? Reapeat that a dozen or so times, and you have a dead Primordial.
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In an alternate universe, the Neverborn are preparing to sacrifice the entire Abyssal host to Oblivion in order to weaken the Unconquered Sun to the point where he can be defeated, working on similar principles.  The Abyssals who learn of this turn renegade out of self-protection (hey, they chose life over death once, selfishly, they'd do it again), and decide to dedicate themselves to the overthrow of the Deathlords and their masters.


But that's just a random campaign idea. :)
 
Why would killing the Abyssals diminish US power?


Admittedly, the shards were from him, but if anything the actual act of *creating* the shards would have been what diminished hos power. After all, the whole point of the exercise was to completely sever the shards from US, so that they could take on the Primordials, despite the Geas that held the Gods in check.
 
Solfi said:
Why would killing the Abyssals diminish US power?
Admittedly, the shards were from him, but if anything the actual act of *creating* the shards would have been what diminished hos power. After all, the whole point of the exercise was to completely sever the shards from US, so that they could take on the Primordials, despite the Geas that held the Gods in check.
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Thus, "in an alternate universe..."  And no, not just KILLING the Abyssals - chucking them wholesale into Oblivion.
 
Yes, well... That would be implied since just actually killing them would free up their shards and nothing else. Still, shards = separate from US.


In your alternate universe the shards are actually related to fetisch souls then? How does this work with the Geas? Or isn't that present in your alternate reality?
 
Solfi said:
Yes, well... That would be implied since just actually killing them would free up their shards and nothing else. Still, shards = separate from US.
In your alternate universe the shards are actually related to fetisch souls then? How does this work with the Geas? Or isn't that present in your alternate reality?
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It was just a random Abyssals campaign idea, for starters :)  I threw it out as a suggestion without too much else thought.  However, if you WANT, then..


Through their agents, the Deathlords, the Neverborn have (conspired with/stolen from) the Yozis, learning the secrets of the fetich bond in order to tie the Abyssal shards back to the Unconquered Sun.  Once this work is completed, extinguishing the Abyssal host will correspondingly weaken the sun-god.  Simply killing them en masse won't be sufficient - they must truly cease to exist.  Sacrificing their servants to forever cripple their great enemy is compatible with the dead gods' natures, and the Deathlords themselves will remain to complete the work of destroying the Unconquered Sun through new servants, such as tainted Terrestrial Exalts.


Our hypothetical Abyssal renegades will be fighting against this (for their own sake), possibly manipulating or working with Solars ("a temporary truce for both our sakes"), and so forth.
 
... Of course reconnecting the Abyssal Essences to their creator, means they could probably work out how to reconnect the other Essences as well... which would make the Exalted susceptible to the Geas. Thus making them unable to thwart the Primordials in any way.


Yes, I know I'm annoying...
 
Solfi said:
... Of course reconnecting the Abyssal Essences to their creator, means they could probably work out how to reconnect the other Essences as well... which would make the Exalted susceptible to the Geas. Thus making them unable to thwart the Primordials in any way.
Yes, I know I'm annoying...
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It's not annoying.  It's just that you are putting more thought into this than I am :)


I assert that the severe weakening of one of the Incarna is a strategically desirable goal to the Neverborn.  If you disagree, this idea will not fly for you. :)  If you agree, then...


The Deathlords clearly have more direct control over their Abyssal creations than they do anyone else (such as the Solars).  So if they can weaken the sun-god appreciably, they will.  The Ebon Dragon is proceeding with his wedding plans, so the Realm is probably taken care of...


What's left are the two Celestial societies - the Silver Pact and the Fivescore Fellowship.  Can the Deathlords come up with replacement soldiers who are capable of challenging them?  If not, you will probably see the main force of the Abyssals harrying the Silver Pact, and trying very hard to imprison any Sidereal they chance upon - the more Exalts you can drag down to the necro-vats and shackle to their respective gods, the better your eventual case will be.
 
That is assuming that Gods can split themselves in the same manner as the Primordials, as opposed to growing in stature with worship as they seem to do...


The Primordials are different critters.  While I hate to piss in anyone's farina, that is perhaps an important thing to bring up, as your players will probably do so as well.  There isn't anything that I'm aware of, canon wise to suggest that the Gods have anything like sub-souls, thus the idea of fetich finding is sort of...moot.


There's also the matter of the Shards, while coming from the Gods, they are independant slices of power.  Kind of like siphoning off gas from your truck to power up an RC plane.  Being independant, and under the control of a Mortal's soul, sort of directs the power, beyond the control of the Gods.  


I just think that the metaphysics explained thus far, in canon, doesn't quite synch up, and while you're certainly free to mess around with that, it might be better to look at other possibilities...


Not too long ago I gave VanMan a plot hook, with the Abyssals looking to deliver a disease to the US, messing up his ability to collect Essence.  The Neverborn then get their Abyssals to act a fool, and start to collect all sorts of goodies to kill the US.  


Here's the spin that I gave him:


"Ideally, you get the Solars to kill their God.  Not only do you get some great dramatic irony, but it will be easier to get the Solars close enough than Abyssals and their tainted asses.


Something of a First Age flavor to do the deed.  Something to twist the flow of Essence at first, to slow poison the US--a contagion that spreads, that upsets the flow of Ambrosia, something that reacts with the US himself, and his associated Spirits and lesser Gods.   That's to weaken him, upset the GoD enough that he is forced to call on his children to find out what is wasting him away.  The Solars are put onto the case to find out what and how an Incarna can be poisoned by the very flow of Essence from the Creation.  Enter the Abyssals--doing their level best to taint and do the nasty. Ultimately, they are sacrificial in nature.  Cannon fodder, and grist for the mill of making the Solars more important to the US.  Trusted.  The problem being, that with each death of the Abyssals and other servants of the Deathlords, they are infected with a First Age disease--nothing that will affect those Mortal born, but to a servant of Yu-Shan, it twists and crottles them. Spirits whither and die when they near the PCs.  The more servants of the Deathlords they dispatch, the greater the taint, and the quicker that Spirits sicken in their presence, the quicker the land dies around them.


Search for the Cure, part deux. Starts off looking to cure the US--and when the PCs discover they've been infected as well, they are off in search of the cure, which they hope to lead them to cure the US as well.  More clever leading on goose chases--Deathlords given orders to do this and that, possible complications as the Deathlords jockey a bit for position, but ultimately, all that, in the Malfeans' eyes just lends versimiliatude to their performance, which is naught but to deliver "The Cure" to the US.  And themselves.


And the cure is miraculous. Spirits no longer sicken in their presence.  Give the PCs a light show and lots of doves winging into the distance.  Now, they've just got to deliver the cure to the US.  By now, they're trusted.  They're vetted in a long campaign to destroy the Creation, faced Abyssmal horrors, faced down Deathlords in shouting matches, faced their hoariest of servants, and were kept from The Cure by the nastiest of critters.  And taken The Cure themselves with no ill effects, right?


Thing is, will the PCs remember that the disease didn't affect their Mortal bodies?  That their cure will in fact doom the US to a fast wasting, to become a pawn of the Malfeans, not just dead, but now a ghostly god of the Underworld, and their pawn.


The PCs deliver the US directly into the hands of the Malfeans, and the US is privvy to all the secrets of Yu-Shan's defense, the Gods'  weaknesses, and will lead the charge on Yu-Shan, to destroy the Games of Divinity and slaughter all the Gods in their home, his deadite powerz now invigorating the Dead, instead of burning them with his cleansing light.  With the US gone, a sickly pale Sun rises in the Underworld, lending his strength, and the sickly rays of the Dead Sun wasting everything of the Creation...


"
 
There were further complications that I was going to suggest, with the Yozi and their Infernals opposing this whole plot, which meant giving the PCs Infernals as their best allies for helping cure the US of his Death Spiral to become the Dead Sun of the Underworld...


But then again, I'm just ebbil...
 
You guys realize that what I was suggesting required a change to canonical assumptions, right?  So if you missed it, I've now made it explicit ;)
 
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