Viewpoint Hot take: Multi-paragraph posts are unproductive

[rae2nerdy]

Yeah I noticed that too. When I don’t post a minimum people seem to default to doing the bare minimum of work more often than not. Which can definitely get frustrating really quickly.

Plus as someone above mentioned I have a one paragraph minimum. If you can’t manage that with the amount of information I’m providing both you and I are doing something wrong.

And hey I’m cool with them telling me - hey I can’t think of what to say right now give me a minute. I have no problem editing my own post if needed or helping them brainstorm their own.

At a certain point it just becomes my partner just plain doesn’t want to contribute to the roleplay. And that’s an automatic no thank you from me

 

[Dov]

Plus as someone above mentioned I have a one paragraph minimum. If you can’t manage that with the amount of information I’m providing both you and I are doing something wrong.

This immediately got me trying to think of situations where this isn't the case. I think you're right in the majority of cases, the more information you give, the more you get because ideally, you've given more to respond to. Two big exceptions to this would be chunks of worldbuilding, and action out of sight. Recently, I was playing out a situation where my partner's character has become powerless, and her not powerless friend has herded her to a safe place with lots of people. Suddenly, he senses the opposing power, tells her to sit tight, and runs off to investigate. Then there is a long post about his investigation into the opposing power, and her character isn't involved again until he finally returns. Being a cagey, stubborn guy, his report is 'I looked into it, it's fine.'
So, post of several pages describing action, scenery, an interaction, but because of the way my character is and the plot at hand, while the post was important to the story, my partner actually only had a little bit of post to reply to. She waited, she said okay, feeling somewhat concerned but knowing he probably wouldn't go into much detail until he'd spent more time thinking about it. That entire reaction is all of 2 sentences, and it didn't feel out of place. It doesn't give me much to reply to, and that's because this particular scene is now over, nothing will happen or be said until the next plot point. I don't feel stifled, there's just nothing more to say until the next person shows up or the place where they're hanging out closes.
As for world building chunks, we've already discussed how it's likely unimportant to other characters, or any characters, and therefore wouldn't be organically commented upon out loud or mentally by person replying. If it is relevant to the person replying, I wouldn't anticipate them having much more to flesh out in the post immediately after extensive description.

 

[rae2nerdy]

I mean by now I think your kind of willfully missing the point man. I specifically stated in my post that if you can’t write a paragraph both of us have done something wrong. And that I was willing to edit or brainstorm with my partner to help them meet the bare minimum.

So unless your just roleplaying with assholes or straw men you are basically just looking for nits to pick at this point

 

[Wandering Fae]

I usually try to be understanding but I have to agree a paragraph is 3 to 5 sentences, it is really not asking for a lot.

 

[Dov]

I'm not willfully missing the point, I acknowledged that the majority of time your point is right and brought up two exceptions where a long post may not organically elicit an equally long post in return, or even a paragraph. Obviously from what we've discussed and shared as far as stances, you know I'd be playing with people who say what is relevant and organic and nothing more. I went on to explain how despite the discrepancy in length between the two posts, it was not inorganic, uncomfortable, or unsatisfactory.
Also you meant you're both times.
Gypsy, my ongoing viewpoint is that any expectation of length is inherently stifling and leads to inorganic rp, therefore asking for anything is asking for a lot because when you do that, you are telling somebody else what is correct. We've already discussed that preference plays a very large role. It is my preference that posts contain everything that is relevant and nothing more, and that there is no way to dictate how long a post should be without guaranteeing that one of us will be forced to post irrelevant things.

 

[Wandering Fae]

Well in my experience, not asking for a number leads to people not trying at all. I put minimums up because I have an expectation that you will try. It's not like a nag them if they fall short as long as they are trying and give an adequate response. The point of putting a minimum up is to see who is willing to try because when I put things up like "I don't have a specific post length all, I ask is that you try and give an adequate response to what I have posted" you know what I end up getting? People who do not try whatsoever, people who have no agency about themselves and and act more like passengers to bear witness to the RP than actually participate in it.

Also, there are plenty of easy ways to extend your responses with relevant information, again 3 to 5 sentences is not a lot, it is nowhere near asking for a lot. You're telling me you can't manage 3 sentences worth of relevant information? Because that is was a paragraph is minimum.

 

[Dov]

It's not a matter of 'can't', it's a matter of 'won't'. I write exactly what is relevant and organic to write, and that's it. If that's pages or a sentence, it's correct and the people I choose to write with feel the same way. I wouldn't write with somebody who would think of adjusting their post even slightly for the sake of length.
Earlier we were talking about posting the characters inner thoughts to add relevant information, but I won't do this if it's not appropriate for my partner to have insight into my character's thoughts. Sometimes it is, sometimes it isn't, it depends on the character. Sometimes the setting is relevant, sometimes a small action is relevant, sometimes being redundant to emphasize one of these things is relevant. If none of these are the case, I may have a very short, perfectly usable post and adding anything more would detract from it.
One of my all-time favorite short paragraphs was in a book by Jim Butcher. The whole paragraph is 15 words and it's one of the most powerful in the whole series. Made me cry in the public place where I was reading it. And even that short paragraph contained a degree of redundancy given the action leading up to it.

 

[rae2nerdy]

I hate people like that, that act like just because they think their writing is great they don’t have to bother with basic courtesy.

I wouldn’t want to write with someone who has that mentality regardless of their writing skills. Because it’s not worth dealing with the ego and the grandstanding.

I would rather deal with someone who maybe doesn’t write the best but is at least willing to work with me as a person. That tries their best and meets me in the middle.

No offense but you seem exhausting as a roleplay partner.

 

[Wandering Fae]

So you are aware that 3 sentences doesn't = 3 lines right?

Again I do not actually care about length, I care about people trying, I care about you giving me at least an adequate response to what I put down. I care about you contributing to the story and overall experience. If I wanted to write by myself I'd post in the creativity section.

You may not want to write 3 sentences, but it's not asking a lot, rather or not you want to does not change that. Now you are fully within your rights not to but do not act like it's a lot when it's not. As you said it's not a matter of can't but won't and you don't want to, it has nothing to do with it being a lot.

 

[Dov]

I would argue that it's discourteous to make me read fluff so you can have a chunk of text. If putting down more than a sentence is adding fluff, it's asking me to write something I must assume my partner will find uninteresting, it's asking me to bore the person I'm trying to collaborate with. The people I write with are engaging regardless of the length of the post, and that is the courtesy I feel I must return. I'm always excited to reply, and I write in a way that I would be excited to reply to. Length has absolutely nothing to do with it.
By the way in this context, number of sentences and actual length are equitable.

 

[Macabre]

I could never think of a situation in which a reply that is less than three sentences is ever an adequate roleplay response. On average, less than three sentences is literally less than fourty-five to sixty words. Replies shorter than that speak to me of nothing but a lack of effort or investment.

 

[Dov]

Sounds like you've never had an efficient partner then.

 

[Wandering Fae]

Or maybe they've just never had a partner who couldn't be bothered to add in details? What you call fluff others call painting a more vivid picture to add to the experience of the RP. Again as I have said, you are within your rights not to want to do it, and if you find other people who like to RP like that then cool. I've seen group RP where people do nothing but one-liners and less and still had fun. That's fine, good for them, but don't claim someone isn't efficient because they don't RP like you, don't expect other people to lower or change their standards because you don't want to do more.

You have already made it very clear from your own words it's not about can't it's about won't, you don't want to do it and it's as simple as that.

 

[Dov]

My issue is with the language that implies it's lesser. Short posts are not necessarily lower quality, and long posts are certainly not any guarantee of higher quality. A one sentence post is capable of being of monumentally higher quality than a paragraph, it depends on the talent of the writer. I have issue with the suggestion that becoming more concise means lowering the quality. I have issue with short posts being associated with laziness. As much as people who make short posts may be lazy, people who make long posts may be fluffers. Equally poor quality.

 

[Wandering Fae]

And my issue is that you pretend that asking someone for a minimum of 3 sentences is asking for a lot when it's not. It is not hard to come up with 3 sentences worth of relevant information that isn't fluff. It's not hard to then add onto that with details that paint a more vivid picture and add to the experience. Even when I had partners who did one line or hell I've had partners that have done less I could do that much, but I refuse to be only one who is trying. I refuse to be the only one pushing the story forward, I refuse to be the only one with any agency in this RP while the other person essentially sits there and watches me write a solo story.

As you said, it's not that you can't think of 3 sentences worth of relevant information, mind you this was relevant information we were discussing, not fluff and you said you wouldn't do it, not because you couldn't do it but because you won't do it. I tell all my partners they don't have to stress themselves trying to put in information that isn't relevant and doesn't add anything, but never have I ever been in a situation where one could not think of at least 3 sentences worth of relevant information put out there if they were trying. If you don't want to that's all well and good, but it's not a lot, it just isn't.

 

[Dov]

Very short posts have nothing to do with a lack of effort. It is extremely wrong to say that short posts inherently lack effort. I'm not pretending that asking for 3 sentences is asking a lot, I'm firmly stating that asking somebody to write any specific amount is not conducive to quality unless you're somebody like Rae who really likes seemingly irrelevant world building (except I know it's not irrelevant to Rae or the people Rae plays with from conversation, it would be extremely irrelevant to me and people I write with because we do not enjoy reading about environment or events completely unrelated to the characters at hand. That is the case for some, not for all, I accept that). If I say absolutely everything I mean to say in one sentence, then that post is exactly right for the situation. Normally that's not the case, but sometimes it is.

Example: The context is that Levi is the subject of an experiment, Rigel is the doctor in charge of said experiment. They are having a conversation in the room where Levi lives, which is minimalist, not unlike a jail cell. White walls, cot, facilities, which have been established in previous posts. Levi is scheming his escape. Therefore, I do not write out his thoughts. He is being secretive, and his secretiveness is better expressed by not declaring his thoughts, even though Rigel would not hear them. As a reader, it will be more exciting to discover his scheme as either it unfolds, or Rigel gets him to confess it. Levi is aware that Rigel suspects he will attempt to escape soon, and is therefore frugal with his answers, to avoid giving away his secret.
Therefore: When I reply with Levi, it will be one line, the dialogue, and the appropriate tail of 'he replied' or 'he mumbled' etc. No inner thoughts to give the plan away, no need to reiterate the intentionally minimal setting, minimal body language to describe because he's going out of his way to be ambiguous. If anything, he's sitting more still than usual, which is suspicious on its own.
Adding a single sentence to the one reply to dialogue would lessen the impact of the action to come and Levi's secretive intentions.
Rigel's reply will also likely be short, because he too is scheming, trying to trick Levi into revealing his machinations. If my partner starts describing Rigel's thought process, it will be less exciting if he succeeds.

 

[Cosmo]

Not really seeing a solid 'They are not productive' and more, 'I don't wanna do it and am tired of people trying to shame me for not wanting to do so'. Now, if that is really how it is, that is fine. You do you mate. Some people might not like it, some people may not enjoy it, but at the end of the day, this is a hobby. The opinions of people on the internet isn't worth the bytes they rode in on.

The reason it is done is pretty simple: When you speak to someone, the majority of the conversation is not through words but through tone and body language. The written word is no different, this is why when you read a novel the actual dialogue tends to be buried by descriptions of the environment, how they're reacting to it, how they're feeling, what they're thinking, how they are positioning their bodies, etc. If there is continuous dialogue its usually only a single retort and then its back to the normal way.

Why is that?

Because this:

"Take Cover!"

"Okay! Do you need help?"

"No, I got this, get to Jill."

Is not two characters talking. That is two robotic monotone Alexa caught in a loop. Seriously, just imagine Alexa asking, 'Would you like directions to Jill?' or 'Should I set a reminder to call Jill?'

Its not hard to write a few things to make it better. Did your character move at all? Did they roll their eyes, did they click their tongue, did they raise their voice, did they look at something, did they think of something, did they feel something, did they do, legit, anything as they are being effected by the conversation, by their partner and by the environment and, yes, the environment matters. Don't need all of them, only a few will turn it into a short paragraph response that will not only sound better, it will be more enjoyable to read, it gives the other people something to play off of and it now sounds like two, you know, actual people instead of Alexa talking to another Alexa.

In large group RPs, dialogue can be tricky to feel organic because you're under a time crunch and you don't want to flood pages worth of a 1v1 [Seriously, people need to not do this. Yes, this is just the opinion of someone on the internet, but don't] but that is where collabs come in where you do the convo and scene in a PM and post it as one-three larger combined post that makes it neater, easier to read, makes the flow better, etc.

There are always ways to fix this, usually it doesn't get fix more because of laziness then anything. Not insulting you or anyone, I've been there to. Sometimes you just go 'meh, its whatever'.

 

[deer]

From your example and what you're describing, in my perspective, if I were to stumble across the roleplay ( if it is public ), I would be met with one line of dialogue and that's it. To me, someone who's not part of the roleplay, would see it as not enough information to go off of. Some questions I'd think to myself is, "How would I respond to that?" , "What is the scene?" , "What should I do?". For me personally, I think every post needs some sort of action, description, and dialogue that moves the story in some shape or form.

I think, in my eyes, it's impressive to be able to respond to and continuously have ideas if there was only dialogue back-and-forth because it makes me wonder of how the action and when the action would occur.

So, for example this: "If anything, he's sitting more still than usual, which is suspicious on its own."
- Would it be known that your character is suspiciously more still than usual? Does he normally sit or stand? How is he usually held in his living quarters? Is anything destroyed and how is his surrounding? Although Levi is secretive with his intentions and is an experiment wanting to escape, what previous emotions, actions, and words did he express during the time in which Levi and Rigel were together? Would it be right to make assumptions that Rigel would notice the stillness of Levi? What is Levi's tone?

If all of these informations were not addressed in a previous post or prior ones, I could only assume that these questions are asked behind-the-scenes or not asked at all and it's by assumptions. I would assume it would be meta-gaming another character's actions and emotion, or even considered OP to write something about another person's character if it was not stated in the post.

Another reason why I adore descriptive details is to avoid those assumptions and controlling a character's emotions, thoughts, and action. If it's described in the post by the writer, I wouldn't need to ask behind-the-scene if something was okay to write. Nevertheless, the questions I've asked are most likely questions I'd already ask my partners and/or even talked about before the roleplay itself or even during.

It's great that you've found like-minded people and those to roleplay with because between you and your partner, it sounds there is a lot of extensive plotting behind-the-scenes with the direction of the roleplay. If that is the case, I can see how that works for both you and your partner.


I think the misgiving and opinions I disagree with, however, is calling someone an "efficient" partner and calling a post "unproductive" because it reminds me of the argument of "time" in roleplays. While in real life we do not showcase our thoughts but rather through actions and words, the idea of painting a vivid picture as mentioned by Gypsy is one that I love doing when writing. Writing has always been a creative outlet for me to describe what I want to say when words are not enough.

Rather than treating roleplaying like "real life" on how we use "time" and "efficiency", I'd rather compare roleplaying to books and novels that has 2 or 3 person perspectives for each chapter because each persons' perspective would be seen different even if the setting and time is the same. It's life through the characters' eyes and each character has a different perspective.

However, if we wanted to compare roleplaying and movies, it reminds me of the movie Deja Vu. Where were you and what were you doing before this and that happened?
- This could be similar to roleplaying which , to me, is another different form of storytelling than books. While movies can easily move frames, lighting, and place the spotlight on specific characters and the character's thoughts overhead without the other character knowing, we, as viewers, are able to see and hear this to an extent. The same could be said about writing our characters' thoughts and dialogue. Our characters may not know what's going on themselves ( 4th wall and all ), but we, as their writers, should be able to know some thoughts, emotions, and ideas much like the movie directors.

Having said that, what is considered 'fluff' to you is not fluff to others especially the subjectivity of relevant or not relevant information. All the questions I've inquired regarding your example post are important to me, as a writer, to get a feel of how to write my own character.

Roleplaying to me is collaborative and again, another form of storytelling. I'm able to bounce ideas into my own post without nagging / questioning my partner if the post already gives me much needed descriptors, factors, and information that will allow me to showcase my own character and move the story smoothly. I wouldn't want to have to hound down my partner and ask them constantly "is this okay to assume this?" , "if it needs to be changed, let me know!" because the information is already given to me in the post. Of course, having an open line of communication is needed but I wouldn't want to feel wary and cautious every time I post.

The element of surprise can be handled in many different ways and you can definitely use different literary elements such as foreshadowing. I always like to use subtle hints, riddled dialogue, and using actions from my characters to showcase things that wouldn't be spoken. If we wanted to speak about movies, there are some elements of surprise and plot twist that occurs that even we, as the viewers, wouldn't be prepared for. So, the same could happen with roleplaying - you just have to find that perfect balance of giving enough information to go off of that'll cause the characters to think, but withhold back some information that'll drive the plunge for the major shock.


I promise I didn't mean to make this response so long! But, to me, deciding to describe someone as efficient and not efficient evokes the thought of quick, rapid-fire responses without adding context clues and support to the dialogue we're writing in a post. As someone who loves descriptive writing, that wouldn't be my niche and something I would be into writing and that's okay.

[ Forgive me, I'm done, haha ]

 

[Dov]

For what it's worth, yes, everything you mentioned was established thoroughly in previous posts, and also in the context of a 1x1. No third party would need to be suddenly be aware of what was going on without the context of everything already established, like how Levi is a very busy man, always working because, as was previously established in this 1x1, his younger brother is being held against him as blackmail. If he doesn't work, his brother takes his place, which is an unacceptable consequence (previously established). So there have been hints that Levi desires to return to the work he'd been doing to keep his brother out of his place, but not much has been said about it, which adds intrigue to the story overall. So yes, Rigel knows that Levi being carefully still is strange, that his frugal answers are to conceal something, and that Levi does whatever must be done to reach whatever goal is there as quickly as possible. The language and length of the posts reflects this. Other character are not the same way. Nathan is a babbler, so all of his inner thoughts are noted in a post because he would speak them anyway if given the opportunity. Saebreig is autistic and gets caught up in cyclical thoughts, so his inner thoughts are expressed redundantly because that's how his mind works and it's also what he expresses outwardly. All of Saebreig's motions are mentioned because all of them are indicative of what's going on with him. He clutches his elbows, his sternocleidomastoid stands out because he is restraining himself in a very still way, he pulls on the tips of his pinkie fingers. This is relevant and obvious. It is noted in my posts. Not all characters are Saebreig, not all characters get this degree of detail because it does not improve the post in certain situations.

Relevant example: A conversation over the phone. The other character would not know the other character's body language, so I don't say what it is. My partner's responses to my character are more organic because it would be what their character responds to, not having any idea of what my character's body language is. I am more likely to get a realistic response by only stating what the other character could observe.
Moral: There is a time and place for everything. If the time and place is not in this post, it won't be there. It's not a matter of laziness, it's a matter of decisive story-building.

 

[Cosmo]

For what it's worth, yes, everything you mentioned was established thoroughly in previous posts, and also in the context of a 1x1. No third party would need to be suddenly be aware of what was going on without the context of everything already established, like how Levi is a very busy man, always working because, as was previously established in this 1x1, his younger brother is being held against him as blackmail. If he doesn't work, his brother takes his place, which is an unacceptable consequence (previously established). So there have been hints that Levi desires to return to the work he'd been doing to keep his brother out of his place, but not much has been said about it, which adds intrigue to the story overall. So yes, Rigel knows that Levi being carefully still is strange, that his frugal answers are to conceal something, and that Levi does whatever must be done to reach whatever goal is there as quickly as possible. The language and length of the posts reflects this. Other character are not the same way. Nathan is a babbler, so all of his inner thoughts are noted in a post because he would speak them anyway if given the opportunity. Saebreig is autistic and gets caught up in cyclical thoughts, so his inner thoughts are expressed redundantly because that's how his mind works and it's also what he expresses outwardly. All of Saebreig's motions are mentioned because all of them are indicative of what's going on with him. He clutches his elbows, his sternocleidomastoid stands out because he is restraining himself in a very still way, he pulls on the tips of his pinkie fingers. This is relevant and obvious. It is noted in my posts. Not all characters are Saebreig, not all characters get this degree of detail because it does not improve the post in certain situations.

Relevant example: A conversation over the phone. The other character would not know the other character's body language, so I don't say what it is. My partner's responses to my character are more organic because it would be what their character responds to, not having any idea of what my character's body language is. I am more likely to get a realistic response by only stating what the other character could observe.
Moral: There is a time and place for everything. If the time and place is not in this post, it won't be there. It's not a matter of laziness, it's a matter of decisive story-building.

Wut? That isn't how writing works. 'I confirmed once, like twenty pages back, that this bro doesn't react much and just restrains, so I never have to write that again' <- That isn't how it works. That has never been how it works. What does tell it? The CONTEXT, the very thing you are refusing to admit means something because the context is tone. The context is the environmental issues that brought upon such change. The emotions they are feeling at that moment, the conscious effort to not say or do something, to restrain something. When you write how they are standing, how their voice is, how their tone is, what they are thinking, what they are doing, you are building that context. The unspoken part of communication. Character A moves in precise ways? Write him moving in precise ways. Character B likes to restrain himself to stand super still? Note that when you are writing the dialogue, note when he moves, note when he starts to have trouble restraining because this builds CONTEXT, context to the conversation, adds meaning and dialogue without actually adding words just like, you know, human beings actually communicate.

Why is this important? Because I, nor is any person I have ever met, a mind reader. In your head, you may have this awesome, "No, don't touch that!" and this character Dave said it with a finality, he raised his hand up to motion to them to stop, his eyes were piercing as peering into their souls, blah blah yatta yatta, we aren't seeing that context. We aren't seeing that imagery. We are just seeing, 'No, don't touch that!'. Those things you disregard are there to complete the picture, to help you move the scene you are picturing in your head to the paper. That is the purpose of those extra lines you see as 'unproductive'.

Again, your entire debate just boils down to, "I don't wanna so am looking for reasons to justify not wanting to instead of just being like, 'Yo, I don't wanna do it, so I am not going to do it'." I can understand that, even respect that if you were being honest, but this weird almost crusade to try and prove that 'nah, its not just me not liking to do it, there is a rational reason,' is just bogus.

 

[Coco Adel]

I'm going to have to disagree with this take for a few reasons.

First and foremost this seems more like a personal issue than an objective fact. It seems more like you are opposed to the idea of multi-paragraph posts because you don't like nor want to do them.

Secondly, no one who actually enjoys doing multi-paragraph posts actually has this problem. I have yet to run into a partner or group who enjoy and are capable of doing multi-paragraph posts where making said posts were unproductive. The only time they were unproductive was when they were paired off with people who clearly were not about that life and didn't want to try and therefore clashed with the people who did.

Also here is another reason I disagree with this take is because it makes it sound like you want people to lower their standards or requirements for people whom they would not normally RP with and here is my thing. No one is making anyone who doesn't want to do multi-paragraph posts sign up for an RP where they know that is the criteria so if there is a problem and things are unproductive unless this person hid their expectations from you then I'm sorry the problem is you.

As someone said on here. If that is what you like then cool but you cannot sign up for an RP where someone says two paragraphs minimum and then get mad when you have to follow through and then blame it on the method being unproductive, no that was all you if you knew you couldn't or wouldn't do it you should not have signed up for it. This would be like me signing up for an RP where I am required to play a canon character from a show, knowing damn well I hate playing canon characters and then shitting on people who like canon character RP's and saying they are the problem when no one made me sign up for it but me.

Some people like one-liners. Cool, I don't so it would be best if we don't try to RP with each other. I won't shame you, just RP with someone who enjoys that. However, if you want to RP with me then I'm going to assume you can either do as I asked or are willing to try and if not and it's clear you're not going to try to do what we agreed upon then understandably I'm going to get annoyed because you knew what it said when you came in. So I don't think it's asking too much to ask for any amount because quite frankly you don't have to say yes, you don't have to RP with me if you don't like it, just like I don't have to RP with you if I don't want to do one-liners.

 

[SilverBlack]

I've been checking this thread out for awhile and forgive me, Dov, I was a little confused by the examples you'd given so I went ahead and just checked out a couple of past roleplays' you'd been in. I see where you're coming from--in the sense that less-than-one-paragraph, even three sentences reply, can contribute well in a roleplay. I can see so from the roleplays you were in. And fair well enough, I was also engaged in those types of roleplays before. if everyone's cooperative and equally contributing, the scenes still move forward, the story carries on, characters still develop. It can still be exciting and fun. I can also see what you meant by your Levi example, then. With this established, there's nothing wrong with one-liners. If you're with partners who are matching your style and energy, one-liners are completely fine. I had the most fun before when I was in roleplays like this with these with little rules.

Personally, I don't roleplay like that anymore. Not exactly because I come to think this type of roleplay no longer works, or that one-liner is now worse than multi-para. It's just that a couple years back I joined a roleplay where there's so much contents in each of my partners' replies that triggered me to write about them in my own reply continuously, and slowly one-liners expanded to a paragraph to more. Now, my reply length ranges from a minimum paragraph to 5+ paragraphs. Nonetheless, I sometimes revisited the old site I used to reply less-than-one para in and see that people are still having fun. That's great, but by then it's hard for me to go back now---I have grown too used to writing long because in my head there's just something to write about, and those something may, in your view, be unnecessary---but in my current partners' view, contribute well into establishing the details and depths of the characters in the roleplay, therefore still play a role in ensuring quality over quantity. For us, at least. And in both end results, whether it be one liner or multi-para, we still get a story we're satisfied with.

So in a sense, I kind of see both sides. Despite so, there are still things I disagree with you with, points that are already made and refuted throughout these 9 pages of arguments already established. What I can conclude from this in the end, is that we're just two types of roleplayers. And we associate with those we are comfortable with. Therefore, instead of going back and forth pointing out issues with multi-para or with one-liner and making it more complicated than it really is, think we should just go back to the very first opinion that sparked the whole debate: Multi-para is unproductive.

To put it bluntly, it is not. For us who is used to multi-para, at least. It just feels unproductive for you because you're not comfortable or used to roleplaying with us who like to type lengthier replies. We're just, simply put, not the style of roleplayer you usually roleplay with. Likewise, for multi-para roleplayers, we may feel equally uncomfortable roleplaying with people who just give out one or two lines as a reply when we give them a lengthy response. In the other person's mindset, he/she may feel like "I've replied exactly to what I need to reply to, as short as it seems," but in our head, we are saying "There is so much you can talk about, and so much you can respond to body-wise, word-wise, or mentally-wise. I've put in so much effort in my reply and to see this as a response feels rude." It's two different mindsets clashing and neither is wrong for thinking that way. It does not make either side any less unproductive than the other.

Believe it or not, for us, as lengthy as each reply may be---when the roleplay plays out in our head, a scenario that is primarily dialogue is still primarily dialogue. A rapid fire, back-and-forth conversation still plays out as it is. Your idea of "multiple conversations at once" with a person doesn't make sense on the surface, but when we roleplay it out and have the story runs in our head, the timing of each conversation falls in place, and ultimately it makes sense. Organic conversations aren't two paragraphs per reply, as you say. But to allow your partner to learn how your character fits in or reacts with the whole surrounding or scenario can well stretch a reply from one line to 3 lines or more. There's just something to write about. Especially when my partner gives me contents to reply to. At least, this is how I think, and how I roleplay with my partners, who think the same.

So, is that still unproductive? No. We efficiently come up with a story. For us, in each reply, we give exactly what we want our partners to know and they're satsifed by what we gave, vice versa. The story is detailed, the actions are well-described and executed well. We learn the thoughts of characters that our partners want us to know, the additional description and action that drive the story forward while we reciprocate the same, and eventually we learn about other stuffs that the partners didn't want us to know about before. We are satsifed by the juicy details we are given and we're both happy with the end result. Now, in pacing, there are people who can pull out multiple paragraphs a day, and people who cannot afford to give just one-liner per day. But then you find partners who click with you in everything--pace and style.

All of these can be achieved in a different fashion when engaging with roleplayers who reply less than one paragraph per reply and for one-liners, but just differently. Again, it does not make either side less productive than the other.

My main point is, because of what you're used to, multi-para may seem unproductive for you. But for us, as many points have already been said on this thread, it is not productive. You're just not used to it. There's nothing wrong with that. It all comes down to personal preference.

When we make minimum post length requirement, it's also just another way to find matching partners who share our style. Similar length, similar effort puts in per reply, we feel comfortable knowing our partners are contributing the same. Suitable partners--tt's what makes a roleplay last. It's that simple. It does not mean that any shorter will make the roleplay unproductive. It just means that hey, we want at least a minimum paragraph per reply. It's what we're comfortable with and can make the most productive roleplay with. That's really all there is.

And thus concludes my point (and it turned out longer than I expected oops--) and my defense on why multi-paragraph is not unproductive for us. If you don't understand what I mean, perhaps you can visit a couple multi-para roleplays to see how it rolls and functions to get an idea of our perspective. I won't be forcing you to understand, however. And a mindset or opinion is hard to change in the first place. Either way, no matter how it goes, I won't be engaging in this thread any longer as I merely want to say my point in this debate lol. So adios~

 

[Grey]

The tl;dr I get from this thread feels like post-length stipulations are merely a circuitously polite way of sorting writing you would consider bad from what you would consider good, and approach of 'here to play' from 'here to write.'

A short list of people here, and you know who you are, will be happier if they don't expect professional quality prose from hobbyists.

 

[Dov]

Again, your entire debate just boils down to, "I don't wanna so am looking for reasons to justify not wanting to instead of just being like, 'Yo, I don't wanna do it, so I am not going to do it'." I can understand that, even respect that if you were being honest, but this weird almost crusade to try and prove that 'nah, its not just me not liking to do it, there is a rational reason,' is just bogus.

The fact that you can't accept my argument that the many redundancies you mentioned make a post worse isn't really my problem but I do hate having words put in my mouth. It has power play vibes. If my partner felt compelled to remind me post after post that their character was acting cagey, I'd feel insulted. Conversation starts, character's acting a certain way, got it. Update me when they do something different. Perfect. The only reason to be redundant is if you need to clearly recall something which occurred ages ago, to emphasize something, or to teach, which falls under the umbrella of emphasizing something I guess.
If you don't have the attention span to recall that on the last page, I described my character's behavior and haven't since updated it because the behavior hasn't changed, that sounds like a personal problem.

It seems more like you are opposed to the idea of multi-paragraph posts because you don't like nor want to do them.

I get the sense that my statement of 'I won't write more than necessary' was misconstrued as 'I don't like to do a lot of writing'. That's not the case. I meant exactly what I said, I won't write what's more than necessary for that post. I won't elect to add details that don't contribute to the development of the story, I won't restate things without some reason that benefits the development of the story, I won't put in extra things that don't need to be there. I decide what is necessary for every post and write it out accordingly.
Perhaps people's ongoing issue with not filling out dialogue with redundant descriptions of actions and tone do have more to do with attention span. I said a thing, but maybe because I didn't describe my tone and body language while I was typing it, you decided I said something else. Weird phenomenon. If it helps, imagine my tone to have been neutral and decisive, my facial expression to be mildly annoyed, and my body language to be still because I don't want to kick my computer off my lap. There, now you know I meant the words I typed in exactly the way I typed them, and I've been redundant so hopefully it sticks.

but you cannot sign up for an RP where someone says two paragraphs minimum and then get mad when you have to follow through and then blame it on the method being unproductive, no that was all you if you knew you couldn't or wouldn't do it you should not have signed up for it.

I do not sign up for rps wherein I know I don't like the rules. That would make no sense. I never said anything about trying to have rps with people like that. Again, I mean what I write, thank you for putting words in my mouth. What I did say was that I was disappointed by the pervasiveness of post length requirements. For some reason, I like to think that a lot of people on here are good writers, and that the plots they post up reflect this. But then that rule pops up and I know that something prevents them from enjoying the kind of rp I enjoy, where people are capable of expressing a lot in few words, or being capable of discerning the difference between a good time for many details or few. I said I was frustrated because it bars me from interacting with potentially good writers, while at the same time saddening me to realize that so few who say they've been rping for years are capable of the aforementioned actions.
TLR: I wouldn't play with somebody like you because I'd hate everything about it and there are so many like you, which drastically limits the pool of people I can play with. I have less of an issue with how you like to write than how many of you there are. Sorry not sorry for the salt, people putting words in my mouth is my absolute biggest pet peeve.

SilverBlack I agree with you. Rae and I established your point earlier but I think you summed it up better. I do accept that well-thought out multi-para posts with fluid time and extraneous world building are something a certain kind of rper likes. Obviously I was not one of those people and it was somewhat baffling at first to hear that people enjoy it as much as you and Rae, I can't imagine myself feeling the same way so it was hard to wrap my head around at first. Fortunately, we communicated and came to the same conclusion you did. We also established that there are people who fluff and pad, and there are people who are lazy and inconsiderate, so both categories of player have their own breed of bad eggs who seem to share their style.

Afterthought: Maybe part of the reason I like the concise style is that I've encountered too many fluffers. Maybe some of you have encountered too many lazies.

 

[rae2nerdy]

I think Dov you would be best served by simply altering your message. Rather than holding this resentment for people enjoying a hobby in a different manner than you work on compromise.

Now I get the frustration of looking for a partner and not finding someone who fits your style of roleplay. I do platonic based roleplays in the 1x1 forum where romance is king. I have people constantly messaging me about romantic pairings and very rarely for platonic pairings. And yes it makes me a little resentful that apparently people can't concieve of a world where their characters aren't paired off romantically. But I don't go around saying that romance is an objectively stupid concept and that anyone who writes it is adding stupid unnecessary fluff to a roleplay. I am just like - I would love if they didn't but if you are going to any way can we at least agree on a slow burn or some kind of friendship growing into something more storyline. Essentially I have learned that if I want to get MY preference I have to be willing to meet my partner in the middle.

Cuz I'll let you in on a secret. Half the time those slow-burn/friendship turned romance things end up just being platonic pairings for the length of the roleplay anyway. Because we end the roleplay before it's done or we find that the characters are better friends than lovers or whatever.

So if you really want people to be okay with you writing the ocassional one-liner don't start it out by saying that every post they do that doesn't fit your aesthetic is fluff. Instead actually talk to them in a civilized manner.

"Hey I like to write one-liners when I feel like the action calls for it. I can send you samples of previous roleplays to give you an idea of what this looks like. I know it says one paragraph per post but I can promise you that my one liner will provide sufficient information for you to respond to. (Again check out my writing sample below for an example). If this is not acceptable to you I apologise for wasting your time and thank you for taking the time to read my post/pm/etc."

That is a respectful message that lets them know you understand why they have their limit in place and that you are willing to offer up your own alternative. As people say "You catch more flies with honey than vinegar" You are not going to get anywhere in life by just being resentful of other people having fun in their own way. You also aren't going to get anywhere by refusing to put yourself out there. You are going to get a lot of Nos. That is the nature of roleplay. But the plain fact is you are also never going to get a Yes either if you don't bother to ask the question.