Getting past double defense

[Persell]

As a player of Dragon-Blooded characters, I was wondering if there was a way that made it a bit easier to get past two persistent defenses.  Sure with dice adders and certain hearthstones you can get to about a 20-23 dice pool, but from that point do you just hope luck swings in your favor?  Granted, this is sort of how I think it should be, but I was just curious if there was something I missed.


Thanks

 

[Persell]

hit em with unblockable/undodgeables - it generally knocks out one of them.


generally if you want to punch through presistent defences hit em before they get chance to get them up

 

[Flagg]

Moved thread to Game Mechanics.

 

[Lurker in Darkness]

As a player of Dragon-Blooded characters' date=' I was wondering if there was a way that made it a bit easier to get past two persistent defenses.  Sure with dice adders and certain hearthstones you can get to about a 20-23 dice pool, but from that point do you just hope luck swings in your favor?  Granted, this is sort of how I think it should be, but I was just curious if there was something I missed.[/quote']
Terrestrials are much weaker than Celestials, especially Solars/Abyssals. Therefore, it´s only natural that they´re pretty much ...... if they try to hit a Solar who emphasizes (did I spell this right?) defense.


The only way a Terrestrial would actually hit a Solar with two persistent defense charms in effect would be with a celestial MA charm that has an undodgeable/unblockable attack. But don´t have my books right now, so I can´t say exactly which charm would accomplish it.

 

[Persell]

If the guy has 2 persistent defenses, I'd move away for the scene and come back later. DBs are not supposed to get past 2 persistent defenses, especially not when they're alone.


In groups, things like Deadly Wildfire Legion can help overcome such defences by giving enough bonuses to everyone in the group to make a couple of hits strike through.


Unbearable Taunt Technique can reduce both defences by 2 dice, effectively removing 4 dice from the Solar's defense. Breath-Seizing technique has the same advantages, although you must strike first, which is no easy feat.


In addition to this, I'd try to get a clinch on the solar with persistent defenses. If this succeeds, ths solar will be hard-pressed to continue using those defenses.


Weapon-breaking defencse Technique can also remove half of the problem, if the Solar is not as adept in attack as he is in defense.


So you see, there are a couple of ways to get a chance against that enemy, but usually, you're pretty much screwed. And this is how it's supposed to be.

 

[Persell]

Actually, Hungry Earth Strike is a much better option than what I've mentionned above.

 

[Persell]

Thanks for all the answers.  BTW, I am not seeing Breath Seizing Tech

 

[Persell]

On the tpoic of hungry earth strike, in the initial opposed roll, the charm says something like, "For every success the Earth monk gets, add ..."  It doesn't say extra success, but I am not sure if that is implied because of the opposed roll.  Any help?

 

[Lurker in Darkness]

On the tpoic of hungry earth strike' date=' in the initial opposed roll, the charm says something like, "For every success the Earth monk gets, add ..."  It doesn't say extra success, but I am not sure if that is implied because of the opposed roll.  Any help?[/quote']
I didn´t quite get your question. But I´ll try to clarify the charm's whole system:


First, you make a Str+MA roll, which is reflexively opposed by the target´s Wits+Athletics. As a resisted roll, each success the target achieves, subtracts one success from those YOU got. Therefore, to succeed you must have at least one more success than the target. For each success you get, you add 1 to the target´s difficulty for physical tests. Besides, if you actually get more successes than the target´s strength rating, he gets completely engulfed in earth, and may only attempt to free himself.


To free himself, the target must succeed at an Straength+Athletics roll, with a difficulty equal to the result of the inicial contested roll, if he´s underground, the difficulty is doubled.

 

[Persell]

Thanks

 

[Lurker in Darkness]

You´re welcome.

 

[Persell]

The best way to defeat an Exalt who loads up on defense charms is to do something OTHER THAN attack him in combat. There's a billion and one ways to "defeat" an enemy, and straightforward toe-to-toe fights to the death only comprise about a million of those. Why don't you try doing something OTHER THAN attacking your foes?

 

[memesis]

Aside from the amusing incongruity between TSJ's post and his sig, I didn't see much in the way of concrete suggestions.  Since these things are not obvious to every gamer, consider:


* who are you fighting?  what does he want?  what are his goals?  can you take them away?


* can you encounter him socially, e.g. in an environment where he won't just unload with attacks or clearly supernatural defenses without penalty?


* can you poison him?  ensorcel him?  ensorcel his friends and allies?


* can you find where he sleeps and kill him then?


* can you find an ally, such as a spirit, that may have unique ways of getting at him?

 

[Persell]

Aside from the amusing incongruity between TSJ's post and his sig,

Oh, I never said you COULDN'T use violence . . . just that a toe-to-toe stand up fight isn't the BEST solution.

 

[greasy golem gunk]

As a player of Dragon-Blooded characters, I was wondering if there was a way that made it a bit easier to get past two persistent defenses.  Sure with dice adders and certain hearthstones you can get to about a 20-23 dice pool, but from that point do you just hope luck swings in your favor?  Granted, this is sort of how I think it should be, but I was just curious if there was something I missed.
Thanks

When fighting, you can try Area of Effect (AoE) attacks.  


1.) Your own anima banner causes (very little) damage when they strike you (it's range is Hand to Hand, a long weapon might get around that...).


2.) Elemental Burst attack is a lore charm with AoE; as a storyteller I'd require more than a daiklaive to parry it; try a BIG sheild or a horse.  That'd bring them down to dodge, and possibly force them into a hopping defense, but I don't have my book handy.  =(  But if it is big enough to force a hopping defense, then simple dodging will not help out.  


3.) Dragon Vortex Attack would get around parries totally, and even if they did dodge outside of it, it'd be a defined Area they could not go in/through.  Confining their mobility could restrain the plausibility of their dodging ability.


On the note of confinment, any weapon with Entangle would help out a whole lot AFTER you hit.  Perhaps if you and a teammate stunted a net assault...?  


Can't think of anything else that no one posted.  


rock on,


-g3

 

[Persell]

Dragon Vortex Attack as mentioned is an unbelievably useful tool for getting around heavy defenses. It's probably the most perfect imperfect charm I've seen, can't be dodged or parried and not even soaked, AND you don't need to roll damage. It does have four prerequisites though, but none of them are really speedbumps and some are actually incredibly useful as well.


This is assuming you want to crush him with your awesome mystical fury. There are plenty of other options, even combat related ones, throw an army at him, grab some of your Exalted friends and follow him home to catch him with his pants down then give him a good kicking, stand at the top of a cliff and when he walks below you drop a rock on him. Actually come to think of it, those are all crappy suggestions, ah well :roll:

 

[Joseph]

Dragon Vortex Attack as mentioned is an unbelievably useful tool for getting around heavy defenses. It's probably the most perfect imperfect charm I've seen, can't be dodged or parried and not even soaked, AND you don't need to roll damage. It does have four prerequisites though, but none of them are really speedbumps and some are actually incredibly useful as well.

It's unbelievably useful if your enemy is somehow bound to stay in a very small area, yes.  Given most fights don't possess that feature, however, in the vast majority of cases where you use Dragon Vortex Attack, your enemy will just walk out of it, ensuring you wasted quite a few motes for, at best, one round of damage.


It's a very potent Charm if you can somehow trap them in it, though.  Most enemies using double defenses are pretty damn hard to trap however.

This is assuming you want to crush him with your awesome mystical fury. There are plenty of other options, even combat related ones, throw an army at him,

Armies tend to lose to double defense-using Exalts.

grab some of your Exalted friends and follow him home to catch him with his pants down then give him a good kicking,

This is possible.

stand at the top of a cliff and when he walks below you drop a rock on him.

This would only get past one of the two defenses, meaning it's unlikely to work given how low a success rating it would have.

 

[Persell]

Ah well, I wasn't expecting my "suggestions" to stand up to a thorough examination anyway...


To be fair the area of effect of Dragon Vortex Attack can be quite large once you get to a semi-decent essence rating, and in reality if you're taking on Solars as a DB before getting a fairly high essence you deserve to die


That's pretty much all I can add, I'm no master of Exalted combat tactics, in fact, I'm not even competent

 

[Joseph]

To be fair the area of effect of Dragon Vortex Attack can be quite large once you get to a semi-decent essence rating, and in reality if you're taking on Solars as a DB before getting a fairly high essence you deserve to die

I once thought radial effects were really impressive too, but then I looked at how ridiculously high movement rates per turn are.  Even with a fairly low Dexterity you can move a ridiculous number of yards in the 2 or 3 seconds a turn takes.


If anything, Dragon Vortex should probably be bigger, because it really should be useful.

 

[Persell]

I once thought radial effects were really impressive too, but then I looked at how ridiculously high movement rates per turn are.  Even with a fairly low Dexterity you can move a ridiculous number of yards in the 2 or 3 seconds a turn takes.
If anything, Dragon Vortex should probably be bigger, because it really should be useful.

Woah, you're right, as it is you'd need to be Essence 5 to catch someone with half-decent dexterity (3) if they want to get out of the radius of DVAttack and that's assuming they were standing right next to you in the first place. It's still a useful charm, given that it auto-kills extras but it's applications in Exalt-vs-Exalt combat are limited if your opponent has a feasible way of attacking you at range although I suppose if they kept running away and you kept chasing them it could become quite amusing. Another problem is that you'll quite likely do some significant damage to some of your friends if they don't get out of your way