[2E] Twighlights anima power too strong?

The twighlights anima power is...

  • overpowered?

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • well-balanced?

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Total voters
    0
Hopefully, he just wants the option.


 Now, if PG really thinks it's underpowered, I have the perfect anima power for him:


New Solar anima power


 When activated for 5 motes, all opponents surrender. This is not an attack or offensive effect; therefore, perfect defenses against attacks or other defenses against non-physical attacks and effects may not be applied against this power. (Take that, Siddies!)


 As with all anima powers, this activates automatically if the Solar's anima banner is at or exceeds the 11-15 mote stage.
 
This might be interesting.


 [Activates Safety Among Enemies, and shoves an unsuspecting Lotus, 'Shroom in hand, in the path of the smiting.]


 Ahem. You may want to clean that. Who knows where he's been...
 
GAH! *sidesteps into Elsewhere* I'll kill an Exalt or look into hte eyes of the Neverborn, but that...no way.
 
I voted that the Twilight anima is overpowered because I feel it is a bit too broad in scope.  After reading up on the specifics of the other Castes to help prove my point, I am now reconsidering my vote.  Yes, Twilight's can become uber tough, and nigh imposable to kill at high Essence, but at the higher levels of Essence combat is much more deadly and no other sorcerer would survive.  To get out of attack range of high essence creatures, would take you out of range of the spell.  Thus the reason that Twilight's are the best sorcerers, and we all know that Solar Circle spells have the most damage potential, so a properly twinked Twilight will use a spell over a diaklaive.  Especially considering the speed to recover after a combo with the diaklave.


The Dawn ability does scale with Essence, and once you get it above 5 no creature can attack without giving the Dawn a +2DV.  It's just that looking at the +2 DV max for Dawn, and the potential 10 points of damage ignored max for Twilight, it appears to make Twilight better, especially once the Anima gets over 11.


Having just had my first 2nd ed combat last night, I can see the value of a +2 DV.  The Twilight maybe nigh invulnerable, but a Dawn can get make a 2 attack flurry and still maintain his full DV.   And combat is all about killing the enemies, not standing there and taking it on the chin.


Traditionally the best way to stop a sorcerer from casting a spell has been to hit them.  People will just have to be more creative now.  Throw a bag over his head and kick him in the jimmy.  Grab a hand full of dirt and throw it in his eyes.  Grab him and try to bind him and then try to drown him.  Does the anima power protect from strangulation?  I think not.


Just to add more more fuel to the fire here, what is the purpose of the Zenith Anima power?  When the Exalts were first made, there were no creatures of darkness were there?  Ghosts and what-not did not appear until after the first Primordial was killed.


Currently this power applies to denizens of Malfaes and the Underworld.  Both pocket dimesions made of Primordials. So, what was a pre-First Age creature of darkness? Would the Mountain Folk or Autobots fall under this power?
 
uteck said:
Traditionally the best way to stop a sorcerer from casting a spell has been to hit them.  People will just have to be more creative now.  Throw a bag over his head and kick him in the jimmy.  Grab a hand full of dirt and throw it in his eyes.  Grab him and try to bind him and then try to drown him.  Does the anima power protect from strangulation?  I think not.
Click to expand...
 I like the way you think; 'course, any such attack would still have to bypass the Exalt's DV (which is no easy task if the Twilight has a few defensive scene-length charms and artifacts)--if the fool Twilight thinks to use only his anima power to negate all attacks, he'll be a dead Twilight soon enough.

uteck said:
Just to add more more fuel to the fire here, what is the purpose of the Zenith Anima power?  When the Exalts were first made, there were no creatures of darkness were there?  Ghosts and what-not did not appear until after the first Primordial was killed.
Currently this power applies to denizens of Malfaes and the Underworld.  Both pocket dimesions made of Primordials. So, what was a pre-First Age creature of darkness? Would the Mountain Folk or Autobots fall under this power?
Click to expand...
 Um...the Primordials and their loyal minions, whom they were created to defeat? (Basically, whoever the US said represented 'creatures of darkness.')


 The MF played on the Exalts' side, thanks to Autochthon, and the Alchemicals hadn't been placed into production yet.
 
Yes, the Autobots and none, repeat NONE of the MF fall into the creatures of darkness category. Hell, no one in Creation, outside the Realm, knows they exist anymore.
 
That's not necessarily true; the Scarlet Stone doesn't exactly conceal itself, and rumors and legends aren't exactly shy about spreading themselves.


 Now, most people might not know more about the MF than 'those weird things that live under the Imperial Mountain,' if that, but I can easily see a diff 3 Int+Lore check being enough to know core book info on the Mountain Folk.
 
Well, they are THE key weapon of the Empress she likes to deploy to knock down peasant rebellions. But you can't simply say they're creatures of darkness, Geas or not, a Zenith will find himself in a bad spot squaring off against the Stone.


"Stop! Oh creatures of darkness I will smite thee in the name of the Sun!"


*no effect*


"Oh...bugger!"
 
I think we're talking about different facets of the argument.


 There's clearly no way for the MF to be represented as servants of darkness; however, general knowledge of their existence (and some minor salient facts) has to be known beyond the Blessed Isle...
 
So what is a 'creature of darkness'?  Is it just another way to describe the component souls of a Primordial in their different forms?  But that does not cover undead.  Were hungry ghosts a problem during the reign of the Primordials, and if so, why did they design things that way?
 
That...is a good question actually. Perhaps that the dead are somehow chained to the Underworld, which was created by dead Primordials?
 
Now you're getting into clashes between game design theory and color text theory.


 The easy answer would be to say that when the Zeniths encountered denizens of the Underworld, they found that their anima powers worked as well as if the denizens were Primordials, their aspects, or those who served them. Why? Ask the US.


 There's nothing in canon to explain it.


 This assumes that the caste anima powers haven't been tinkered with since their creation, which need not be the case...
 
That...is a good question actually. Perhaps that the dead are somehow chained to the Underworld' date=' which was created by dead Primordials?[/quote']
Which leads back to the question of would it work on Autobots.   :P Creatures form a different realm made from a Primordial.  


The other cast powers work on Auto's pets, so why not this one as well?
Click to expand...
 
They're not demons. They're Exalts. The people of Autochthonian are human. Therefore immune. Unless you're a Midnight Abyssal.
 
Also, the Alchemicals are technically not of Autochthon's making.


 The mortals assembled them, with instructions from the Great Maker.
 
uteck said:
Just to add more more fuel to the fire here, what is the purpose of the Zenith Anima power?  When the Exalts were first made, there were no creatures of darkness were there?  Ghosts and what-not did not appear until after the first Primordial was killed.
Currently this power applies to denizens of Malfaes and the Underworld.  Both pocket dimesions made of Primordials. So, what was a pre-First Age creature of darkness? Would the Mountain Folk or Autobots fall under this power?
Click to expand...
On page 192, it also says that it applies to "unformed Fair Folk," so Fair Folk and Wyld creatures count as "dark creatures" as well.  Actually, they would probably be the first dark creatures the Solars encountered after the Primordial War.  Basically, anything that isn't naturally of Creation or Heaven is considered dark to the Unconquered Sun since they've always been around.


But back to the Twilight's anima.


I think it's pretty even because you also have to consider the story of the Twilights.  Purely mechanically, yeah, Twilights are the bomb when it comes to combat.  But, then again, you also have to consider the type of people that the Unconquered Sun Exalts into Twilights: sorcerers, savants, artificers and loremasters.  These typically aren't the kind of characters that will be wielding a 12 foot Daiklaive of Kick-Ass of He-Man and Thundarr Proportion and wear Ultimate Untouchable Armor That Takes a Year and a Day to Put On and Put Off.  Rather, the Twilights are going to be those who spend day after day after day making those things.


So if you have a minmaxer who only plays Twilights because of the anima ability, here's what you do: from now on, you have your PCs play heroic mortals who will Exalt and, dependent on what their character does, they'll Exalt as a certain caste.


If the heroic mortal is a warrior without mortal peer, Exalt him as a Dawn.  If he wants to kick ass for the Unconquered Sun and make Creation into a much better place, Exalt him as a Zenith.  If he wants to sneak about and assassinate, whether it's an enemie's body or character, he'll be a Night.  If he wants to see the world, loves to talk to everybody, and would use diplomacy as a first defence but fists as a final enforcement, he'll become an Eclipse.  But if he's out there search for more lore and knowledge and experiments with arcane rituals and turn those experiments into processes, the Unconquered Sun will Exalt him as a Twilight, someone who needs that kind of protection because they're so busy with their heads in a book making sure the manse is built exactly as it should be to train heavily in combat skills.
 
Actually that is not entirely true. The US does not love bookworms, he likes his twilights to go out and do stuff with their knowledge. and nights do not get exalted for being sneaky all the time, they get exalted for being clever. that is a slight difference. I'd say there are as many twilights around who can wield a sword or some other weapon to kick as there are night castes around who specialize in kicking ass.
 
Okie dokie


Creatures of Darkness:  Doesn't this refer to "darkness of the heart/soul"?  If they are inherently or physically evil (and thus stereotypically roam around at night) then they are vulnerable to the "light" (Unconquered Sun reference, watch out! :shock: ) of the Zenith abilities.  Zombies, ghosts, demons; all are pretty much a given kind of evil.  I'm not arguing that any kind of evil person/thing can be effected... just those easy-to-recognize types.


Twilights... wtf?:  I put spell-casters altogether on a very high pedestal.  Because that is where they belong.  Think about all of the popular spell-casters that many of you have seen/heard/read about!  Gandalf kicks any and all ass, ya know why? Cause he casts fuckin' spells!!  That evil sorcerer at the top of the tallest tower??  He's an archvillain... because he casts fuckin' spells!!


Spells are not to be some everyday occurance... they take ages to learn, days to prepare, minutes to cast, and if you can't stop them, then you're in totally fucked...  mostly due to the fact that you're dead.  All these MMOs and shit these days throw spellcasting around like it was just the extra mustard and ketchup of combat.  Melees are supposed to swing swords, archers are supposed to shoot arrows, but real mages are supposed to tear down buildings.  Now, don't bite me on the technicality that magic doesn't exist... because that is what makes it so much more powerful.


We can't ever really know how strong magic would be.  Magic is not a natural force.  Don't think about the elements like hurricanes and lightning.  Magic is a supernatural manipulation from beyond normal existence, the power of dreams.  I'm guessing that if you take a close look at the technology we have today with explosives, guns (with bullets), and the hydrogen bomb... you'll see how I see magic.  Sheer, undoubtable, instant death delivered promptly. :twisted:
 
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