Surviving a Deathlord's Citadel

[Persell]

At some point in my Exalted game, I want to take the characters' struggle to the big bad's homefront.  My inspiration would be the various levels in the Final Fantasy games that involve this sort of thing.  In the midst of brainstorming things a Deathlord would keep in her citadel to make life hell for any Solar Exalted trying to infiltrate, I realized that Exalted, despite its Final Fantasy influence, really does not do dungeon crawls well.  At all.  It seems that an extended trip to a Deathlord's citadel would ensure a total party kill.


First is Exalted paper ninja syndrome.  Even characters who have stocked up on Ox-Body Technique can't take that much damage before they die.  The PCs would have to take pretty much zero damage before reaching th "boss" of the story.


Lack of essence replenishment is also a problem.  Between this and health levels, this sprawling citadel would have really be about a dozen rooms.


Are there any solutions to this problem more elegant than finding ways for all the PCs to carry Gems of Perpetual Wellness?  I refuse to believe -- at least for the moment -- that a game that includes no less than 10 Deathlord citadels would make the siege of those citadels by a circle of Solars so impossible.

 

[psychoph]

Stunts can decrease the essence loss, if your character creatively do things at a consistant +1 or +2 level they are gaining back essence for each turn they are using it.  


Deathlords aren't really meant to be taken on by Solars without several thousands of years of experience and Solar Sorcery.  


If I were taking on a deathlords citidel I would have raided Lookshy and stollen a flying machine or a lot of First Age weapons.


On the flip side I would spend years building up an army and developing artifacts that were designed to combat Necromancy and Undead things.


But in essence I see Deathlords as on par with Gods in Yu-Shan.  They have been given powers by Primordials.

 

[Persell]

Point taken; I should have specified that the Deathlord would not be at home at the time and the PCs would just have to contend with her Abyssals and various undead war machines.


Frankly, I don't think the statement "Deathlords aren't really meant to be taken on by Solars without several thousands of years of experience" is true at all.  It it were, they simply would not be viable adversaries for most series.  I'm one of the people of the opinion that when the Exalted dispatched the Primordials in the First Age, they were all Essence 5 and below and it wasn't until long after the Primordial War was over that they became all-powerful.

 

[memesis]

Some ways to deal with the health level issues follow.  I'm not even going to address the OTHER problems inherent in raiding a Deathlord's fortress, as that will be as easy or hard as you make it.


Your canonical options for fast magical healing are:


* Be a Lunar


* Anointment of Miraculous Health


* Stomach Bottle Bugs or some other spirit with flesh-mending Charms


* Various Hearthstones that provide healing abilities


* Wood Dragon martial arts


* Gem of Adamant Skin reduces overall healing time, and this plus Body-Mending Meditation can bring regeneration times down a fair ways.


House Rules that may work:


* Three-die stunts allow you to regain a Health Level instead of a point of Willpower or Essence.


* Regeneration Charms (that work outside combat)?


* "It was only a flesh wound!" - pay XP to regain Health Levels immediately.

 

[ashenphoenix]

As far as I recall (my players have my copy of Abyssals), Ghosts can transform Essence to Health Levels for people other than themselves.


They can also steal essence from other ghosts and living beings (Abyssals).


They can also skinride.


You just need to find/persuade some Ghosts (preferably Nemissaries) to be riding along inside you. There should be one or two from a Deathlord's domain that don't exactly love him/her, and even if there aren't, grab some from an opposing DL's domain.


AFAIR though, the living can't be possessed in the Underworld, so the Ghost may have to Hide [your] Living Name though, so as to pull this off.

 

[Joseph]

At some point in my Exalted game, I want to take the characters' struggle to the big bad's homefront.  My inspiration would be the various levels in the Final Fantasy games that involve this sort of thing.  In the midst of brainstorming things a Deathlord would keep in her citadel to make life hell for any Solar Exalted trying to infiltrate, I realized that Exalted, despite its Final Fantasy influence, really does not do dungeon crawls well.  At all.  It seems that an extended trip to a Deathlord's citadel would ensure a total party kill.
First is Exalted paper ninja syndrome.  Even characters who have stocked up on Ox-Body Technique can't take that much damage before they die.  The PCs would have to take pretty much zero damage before reaching th "boss" of the story.

Solar and Lunar Exalted both have Charms that allow for direct replenishment of health.  Solars have it in the Medicine tree, Lunars have it in their Survival and Healing tree.  Even if you take some damage, as such, you could theoretically get it back.  


Beyond that, Solars in particular are really good at not taking any damage at all, and Lunars are really good at getting health back after they've lost it.  It shouldn't be a problem for a group powerful enough to have a REASON to go into a Citadel.  

Lack of essence replenishment is also a problem.  Between this and health levels, this sprawling citadel would have really be about a dozen rooms.

The vast majority of challenges in a Deathlord's Citadel will not involve much Essence expenditure, and things like Hearthstones and Stunts can help get Essence back quickly enough.  I don't think it's much of a problem.

Are there any solutions to this problem more elegant than finding ways for all the PCs to carry Gems of Perpetual Wellness?  

No solutions are needed, the game is fine as is.  Have a Medicine expert in the group, and recognize that most challenges don't require that much Essence expenditure, and you'll be fine, particularly given how much power the players will all ready have if they are considering going into a Citadel.

I refuse to believe -- at least for the moment -- that a game that includes no less than 10 Deathlord citadels would make the siege of those citadels by a circle of Solars so impossible.

Remember that in most cases, you'd have an army behind you if you were REALLY going to attack a Citadel.  The Deathlords certainly have armies.  As a result, most challenges in a Citadel would be nil, because they'd be overrun by your supposedly superior forces.  


Most Deathlords probably don't have things like traps, etc, in their Citadel in abundance, because it'd be just plain stupid.  They're confident, they're powerful, and they don't need them.  Anyone stupid enough to walk into a Citadel hoping to kill a Deathlord doesn't need to be slain by traps, the Deathlord and/or their servitors can handle it.

 

[Persell]

Also, the PCs can just cast Rain of doom and ruin much of the citadel's outer defences, killing a host of ghosts in the process, without ENTERING the Citadel.


Okay, the building will stand, but even Exalts don't want to go out in a Rain of Doom to fight their aggressors if the radius is large enough (one ping damage per round does hurt in the long run). That's especially true with a Circle of Solars actively watching the rim of the circle formed by the rain.


Also, the Solars probably use archery to shoot down anyone looking in the windows (a good Solar archer can strike anything within a mile easily). Of course, the Abyssals will survive, but the time and manpower to repair everything will be a lot.


And if the Deathlord is in there, only one thing can truly hamper it, save for beings of Kejak-like power: Rune of Singular Hate. It is very clearly in the purview of the spell to affect a Deathlord. And once you've beaten up the Deathlord after this spell was used, the Abyssals and ghosts around will flee in fear: none are so stupid as to oppose a Circle who made short work of a deathlord, no matter how weakening the experience might have been to them.

 

[Andrew02]

Are there any solutions to this problem more elegant than finding ways for all the PCs to carry Gems of Perpetual Wellness?

Find a way to get in that involves no combat at all. Seduce (or be seduced by) that pretty little gothic Abyssal and get yourself invited in. Make friends with Moray Darktide or others of his ilk.

 

[Coyotekin]

Whether the Deathlord is home or not will not matter when it comes to storming a citadel. I agree with Joe on the matter of the DL having a vast army or armies at His/Her disposal. This will also include the occsasional champion, and of course you have to deal with all of those on His/Her home turf.


You may just do away with that DLs servitors, but let's face it, the other DLs are always vying for favor with their respective Malfean. And sometimes they end up serving the same one. So you may just have to deal with a coup or carefully placed assasins after the matteris supposedly settled.


Then again, the circle just may be slowly seduced by power. glory, or those of the darker realms. The DLs and Primordials have had plenty of time to perfect certain skills and tactics. So their victory may be short lived....

 

[Persell]

Do as you like. My secrets guard themselves.


I've always subscribed to the "Roach Motel" method of Citadel Defense.


...That is to say, Getting IN is easy.


Once your enemies have managed to successfully insert themselves into the heart of your citadel, simple spells of confusion and misdirection (or perhaps simply the Labyrinth-infused nature of your hallways) can keep them comfortably within your walls as their essence, manpower, and supplies slowly deplete.  


Think Napoleon's invasion of  Russia.


If you really, REALLY wanted to be sadistic, let them wander through the halls a bit, then stumble across an empty banquet hall, laid with a sumptuous feast... regrettably, it's all UNDERWORLD food, and cannot sustain them. But it smells sooo goooood.....


Read the Chapter on Cold House (Edit: in E:tA) for a good description of this effect.


In the end, those poor, ragged, starving Solars will be BEGGING you to fight them.


(Edited to include citation)

 

[Coyotekin]

Nothing to do with the thread. I just wanted to laugh after seing Mempo's original signature still there and still funny as hell.

 

[Persell]

Frankly, I don't think the statement "Deathlords aren't really meant to be taken on by Solars without several thousands of years of experience" is true at all.  It it were, they simply would not be viable adversaries for most series.  I'm one of the people of the opinion that when the Exalted dispatched the Primordials in the First Age, they were all Essence 5 and below and it wasn't until long after the Primordial War was over that they became all-powerful.

Possibly. But remember that then there was a united front of 300 solars, 800 Lunars and many thousand DB, supported by astrology and Sidereal tactics, and the Incarna was leading them(they couldn't attack  the primordials directly, but they could probably defend the solars while they made the attacks).


And, if you are using the near canon setting, then the Deathlords ARE all-powerfull solars from the first age, and the Primordials has just added to their power and found a way of keeping their exaltation in death. So I find it unlikly that a bunch of upstarts could take one down, supported as he/she/it is by at least 7 abyssals and the might of the Underworld at her/his/it's beck and call.


Then again, the Storyteller has the final word. Snowmobile!

 

[Joseph]

Frankly, I don't think the statement "Deathlords aren't really meant to be taken on by Solars without several thousands of years of experience" is true at all.  It it were, they simply would not be viable adversaries for most series.  

Actually, the EXACT opposite is true.  In order to be viable adversaries for most series, they HAVE to be virtually impossible for younger Solars to beat.  


The Deathlord as Adversary schemata goes something like this:


Players are Essence 1 - 2: Will be dealing with the Deathlords fringe plans and weaker servants.


Players are Essence 3 - 4: Will be dealing with the Deathlords somewhat more important plans, and will probably be facing off against their moderately powerful servants, such as younger Deathknights.


Players are Essence 5 - 6: Will be dealing with some of the Deathlords most vital plans, can expect to deal with the Deathlords greatest servants, and may even get into a scuffle or two with the Deathlord itself before being driven off.


Players are Essence 7+: Will be armed and prepared to crush the Deathlord and everything he stands for.


If Deathlords could be defeated by a Circle of Essence 2 Solars, then they'd be USELESS adversaries for all the games beyond Essence 2, because they'd be too weak for them.  By making them virtually invincible until much higher levels of power, you PRESERVE them as useful adversaries.  You just fail to recognize there is MORE to being an adversary than being killable; you can have an adversary you never even MEET, much less kill.  


So really, you couldn't be more wrong.

 

[Andrew02]

Possibly. But remember that then there was a united front of 300 solars, 800 Lunars and many thousand DB, supported by astrology and Sidereal tactics, and the Incarna was leading them(they couldn't attack  the primordials directly, but they could probably defend the solars while they made the attacks).

Holy shit. When did there get to be so many Lunars?

And, if you are using the near canon setting, then the Deathlords ARE all-powerfull solars from the first age, and the Primordials has just added to their power and found a way of keeping their exaltation in death.

Again . . . holy shit.


When did the Deathlords become more than the ghosts of First Age Solars who were granted extensive power by the Malfeans?

 

[Persell]

And, if you are using the near canon setting, then the Deathlords ARE all-powerfull solars from the first age, and the Primordials has just added to their power and found a way of keeping their exaltation in death.

Again . . . holy shit.


When did the Deathlords become more than the ghosts of First Age Solars who were granted extensive power by the Malfeans?

These's actually some disagreement in Canon about this.


According to the BWB, the original template: the DLs are supposed to have access to any damn Charms they want, PLUS Solar Sorcery, PLUS Necromancy, PLUS whatever the ST wants to dollop on top of that. While the BWB is clear that Dls are ghosts and not living servants of the Malfeans, it's pretty much explicitly stated that they've held onto all the good stuff they had in life; it's just twisted to serve death.


Fast Forward to the PG, which in a spectacularly BAD choice of editing completely disregards the original BWB text and says, "Ghosts Including Deathlords CANNOT USE SORCERY OF ANY TYPE, and can only use Arcanoi, not Solar or Spirit Charms..."


...Leaving STs everywhere with a big, big case of WTFhuh?


Personally, I think the PG was 100% ass on this, but hey, that's just me.

 

[Joseph]

It's pretty clear when reading that section that it's specifically talking about Thaumaturgy being inaccessible to the Dead -- even the Deathlords -- NOT all types of magic.  The section heading is called "Others and Thaumaturgy," and it mostly amounts to "the Dead can't use Thaumaturgy, they get Arcanoi instead."

 

[Andrew02]

These's actually some disagreement in Canon about this.


According to the BWB, the original template: the DLs are supposed to have access to any damn Charms they want, PLUS Solar Sorcery, PLUS Necromancy, PLUS whatever the ST wants to dollop on top of that. While the BWB is clear that Dls are ghosts and not living servants of the Malfeans, it's pretty much explicitly stated that they've held onto all the good stuff they had in life; it's just twisted to serve death.

This is what I figured was the case. Autochtonians reinforces this, to the best of my knowledge, with the write up of First and Forsaken Lion. Abyssals kinda says that too, right?

Fast Forward to the PG' date=' which in a spectacularly BAD choice of editing completely disregards the original BWB text and says, "Ghosts [b']Including Deathlords[/b] CANNOT USE SORCERY OF ANY TYPE, and can only use Arcanoi, not Solar or Spirit Charms..."
...Leaving STs everywhere with a big, big case of WTFhuh?


Personally, I think the PG was 100% ass on this, but hey, that's just me.

So . . . this is what causes people to think Deathlords are still alive Solars?


I'm not impressed. That wouldn't convince me, and I am damn fucking gullible.

 

[Joseph]

Fast Forward to the PG' date=' which in a spectacularly BAD choice of editing completely disregards the original BWB text and says, "Ghosts [b']Including Deathlords[/b] CANNOT USE SORCERY OF ANY TYPE, and can only use Arcanoi, not Solar or Spirit Charms..."
...Leaving STs everywhere with a big, big case of WTFhuh?


Personally, I think the PG was 100% ass on this, but hey, that's just me.

So . . . this is what causes people to think Deathlords are still alive Solars?


I'm not impressed. That wouldn't convince me, and I am damn fucking gullible.

She's misreading the section.  It says Deathlords can't use Thaumaturgy, nothing more.

 

[greasy golem gunk]

heh heh paper ninja; I like it.  


But the answer to this is Hardness.  Even at its lower rating, it's excellent at protecting exalts from envormental damage.  Like pittraps and fire.  It can come fro the heavier artifact armor, it can come from Resistance charms or DBT.  Or even Bronze SKin or Incomprable body arsenal.  Especially warstriders; one of those beating it's way into a cititidal would be cool, but only if the Deathlord fancied (epically) grand hallways and entrances.  A GIANT cathedrial style entry way leading to the throne room would be sensible for the partifcularly self-glorifying ones.  


Starmetal armor and Battle maidens reduce damage taken, after soak.  It's 10 motes per scene, but it should protect the entire party.  


A lot of people suggest hearthstones, but those from Creation won't work in the underworld, and vieversa.  So even the level 5 Gem of Perputual wellness wouldn't help for anything except a fancy parry (with the nigh-invulnrible hearthstone you see).  


Memesis posted good ideas for healing, but his hearthstone suggestion is still out of place.    


For healing, it looks like the most dependable is stunting and healing charms.  Perhaps engaging in speeches on the importance of their quest before and after each battle can pad their essence pools.  


Siderials that bind an elemental to themselves (through Medicine charms) can regain healthlevels if you rule that the appropriate element (air or earth) is present in the underworld.  But this'd be a homerule.  


As far as Essence replenishment goes, I've got a wonderful 2-charm combo.  Arrow-storm, Ghost Eating Technique.  You should be netting a 3 mote profit on each shot, provided you hit a spirit or ghost (or even deathlord).  And it works even better against big groups!  (provided you keep hitting).  Or even just GE-technique, and splitting your melee pool huge like would work too...  anything to make sure that They run out of essence before you do.  


Endings form can restore motes and willpower with enough charms, and martial arts specifically work anywhere it seems.


-g3

 

[Flagg]

A lot of people suggest hearthstones' date=' but those from Creation won't work in the underworld, and vieversa.[/quote']
Hearthstones from Creation work absolutely everywhere.


-S

 

[greasy golem gunk]

A lot of people suggest hearthstones' date=' but those from Creation won't work in the underworld, and vieversa.[/quote']
Hearthstones from Creation work absolutely everywhere.


-S

I could swear that Exalted: The Abyssals says differently.  


(a few minutes later)


Ah, got confused.  It seems that underworld manses fail in creation, not the other way around.  SOrry