Exalted and Sciences

[Quorlox]

The XP cost for Sciences is really high; do these costs assume the person is a mortal?  It's hard for me to believe an Exalt would pay 6x current rating just to augment their Occult.

 

[Quchu]

I think the EXP cost was set with mortals in mind. They need to try real harder to do something that sort of resembles supernatural in a sense. Maybe Exalts could get a discount for them, seeing as mortals and other lesser supernaturals pay much more than Exalts do for same stuff.


Though, I think Exalts would take Sorcery or Charms instead of Science. just because they are whole lot better.

 

[Jakk Bey]

Bingo.


Why do Exalts need these toys, when they have Solar Sorcery, the ability to command Demons, and Charms?


Mortals make due with what they have, Exalts don't even bother learning all their clap trap, because they've got the keys to the Big Toybox.


So they can rub Mortals' noses in the fact that they're better at everything?


When I put together the idea of Martial Art/Fight Techniques and Disciplines, it was with the caveat in mind, that no Solar or other Exalt was going to purchase a lot of them--because as neat as they were, they paled in comparison with Charms.  


If a Solar has Sorcery, why are they bothering with what amounts to Hedge Magic?

 

[Obsidian Soul]

With the exception of Lunars and Alchemicals, Exalted pay the same for Attributes, Abilities, Virtues, Specialties and Willpower, so why should Thaumaturgy be any different?

 

[Quorlox]

If a Solar has Sorcery' date=' why are they bothering with what amounts to Hedge Magic?[/quote']
Say a sorcerer has followers or soldiers and he'd like to provide potions and enchanted items for them.  He's a master of the occult, but he can't mix a potion without purchasing it as a separate ability?  To me, it just doesn't make sense, particularly given the XP cost.  I know there are spells the create enchantments, summon demons and ghosts (although the latter is necromancy).  Wards and Geomancy are covered by Charms, once you get them, but what about alchemy and weatherworking?  It just seems a little silly to me to force them to learn hedge magic the same way mortals do.

 

[Silence In Daylight]

I've houseruled Sciences to cost the same as Occult--like how one buys multiple Crafts. Any Exalt who favors Occult also favors the Sciences. It's  a bit less expensive, but not too much so. Worked out fairly well.

 

[Flagg]

My own house rule allows Exalts to take one ritual per dot in Occult at chargen. The rest are paid for normally.


-S

 

[Quorlox]

Has anybody just made Sciences a subset of other Abilities?  If artifacts can be constructed and manses raised because the character has the relevant Craft, Occult, and Lore, maybe enchantments and alchemy can be done the same way.

 

[Guest]

Jakk I mostly play Savants so some of my freebes will go into Thumaturgy now that I have the PG it juust makes sence my chars would know the spells you know and some of them evan though they have the big magic will continue down the mortal paths as well

 

[Jakk Bey]

Quorlox--I think you answered your own question.


If an Exalt learned Hedge Magic, he did so when he was Mortal. If he wants to perform really neat-o effects and enchantments, he can do so with a custom made spell. Provide potions? How about a Terrestrial or Celestial Circle that does the work for him? How about putting a Demon or Spirit right on that?


Alchemy? Weatherworking?  You have Celestial and Solar Circles of Sorcery and you're bucking about trinkets and zephyers?  Call up a Wind Spirit and put his ass to work.  Alchemy?  Transmute and potionize all you want with a couple of Terrestrial and Celestial Circle spells.


If you can perform something like Imbue Amalgam, why not a spell that creates temporary effects?  That's only Celestial Circle Sorcery at that.  Call it Impart Aura, Bestow the Gladdened Tiding, or whatever poetic drift you want.  But it is still a more powerful version of what Mortals have access to.  


Do you think that the First Age Solars were Masters of Alchemy? Maybe after a few hundred years, and finally getting bored with watching Mortals fiddle and fart around, but chances were much better that they made custom Charms and penned off Sorcery effects that were much more efficient.  


Why do Mortals have Thaumaturgy? Because they ain't got the dap to perform Sorcery or call up Charms.  If they did, they wouldn't be bothering with Hedge Magic either.


If an Exalt wants to learn the inefficient Mortal methods, then they pay the same price--and that is the price of being inefficient.  They want to perform something that will WOW all the kids in the audience, then they'll dust off some Sorcery and show the kids how it's really done.

 

[Quorlox]

If an Exalt learned Hedge Magic, he did so when he was Mortal. If he wants to perform really neat-o effects and enchantments, he can do so with a custom made spell. Provide potions? How about a Terrestrial or Celestial Circle that does the work for him? How about putting a Demon or Spirit right on that?

A sorceror could do this and probably would, but I don't see why he should have to.  If building artifacts and manses are covered by the regular Abilities, why not the weak stuff as well?  It goes against what I consider a natural order for learning.  If somebody learns how to build an 5MM artifact with Occult 4, etc., why wouldn't they know how to make a minor enchantment with Occult 2, etc.?  Is the latter less effecient?  Yes, but that shouldn't mean he needs an entirely new skill set to create weak magical items.

 

[Jakk Bey]

Quorlox--So why is the Exalt bothering to learn any of the arts of Thaumaturgy?  They wouldn't. They might have a background in these arts from their days as Mortals, but after they pass into the realm of Demi-God-hood, they aren't really going to need these things.  Because they can brute force their way past any of these little arts.


That Mortals have been toiling with these toys since the days of the Dragon Kings.  That the Deliberative put a ban on Thaumaturges during the height of the craziness puts a lot of credence that these arts were powerful enough to worry the Exalts--and put them as allies with the DB's during their revolt.


Thaumaturges have power.  They can be useful, but these uses are limited, when you compare the power and versatility of Sorcery.  Exalts may have a background, or even sweeping knowledge if they're old enough, and bored enough, and not really involved in sweeping affairs of state to apply themselves, but the idea of limiting their cost for Exalts, or making them sub-sets of Occult seems a bit...fishy to me.


No reason for it, really.  The costs don't make them a great fit for Exalts, not when they have Charms and Sorcery, so why would they apply themselves, at least when they're young and full of piss and vinegar?  As for weak potions--why make them that weak?


If you look at the Terrestrial Circle and the Celestial Circle spells, there are plenty that have a lot of wiggle room to be able to have the scope of doing everything that Mortal Thaumaturges do, and then some. Ritual of Elemental Empowerment already trumps a lot of Thaumaturgical effects.  You apply a similar style of Spell in the Celestial Circle, and you've got a very powerful smith and crafter, and you've got fun.  Roll into the Solar Circle and you are looking at glassine towers and balms that heal the worst of wounds, take away sorrows forever, memories leach away like salt from a flooded plain.


That Mortals can mimic some of the least effects of the really powerful effects, make them helpful. Useful. But not in the same league, and I think that its pretty much a waste of time for a younger Exalt to even bother with such things--not all that surprising for some more muddled, lost, or those without strong tutors or Mentors, but still it's a waste of XP's. The Creation is NOT fair. Trying to balance things for Mortals and Exalts is not in keeping with these themes.  


Mortals have it harder.  Trying to copy Mortals in their rambunctious and inefficient ways isn't what the Exalts are around for.  They are supposed to be better.  A lot better. Their lives are blessed. Their every move is touched by the Gods.  That a Demi-God might suffer the same penalties as Mortals for stooping to their ways makes perfect sense in my mind.

 

[Persell]

Theirs only ONE reason for an exalt to continue studying thaumatalagy.


Scholarly reasons.


The maiden of battles , probaly knows the crimson pentacle style.


does that make it more then marginaly useful to her.


Of course not!


she learned it as a part of her scholarship of all things martial


similarly a twilight Exalt MIGHT Learn more about mortal thaumatalagy to better work with Mortal thaumatages, better understanding their needs.

 

[Obsidian Soul]

I, myself, just use the Thaumaturgy section as a guideline for what a trained Occutist can do, like it was done in the Corebook.  If a player wants to buy a Science, I let them and give them a +2 die bonus to any rolls of the appropriate level.  If they want to buy a formula or procedure instead or in addition to the Science, I give them another +2 die bonus.  If they want to buy a Ritual, I extend the duration of the effect by one increment (one turn to one minute to one hour to one day to one week to one month to one season to one year).  The Arts fuction normally.  It tends to make an individual trained in just Occult a talented generalist while those who are trained in a specific Art, Ritual or Science into technical specialist.  I also get to get rid of the stupid 'Magic for Everyone Rule' as my rule is superior in every fashion.

 

[Quorlox]

Quorlox--So why is the Exalt bothering to learn any of the arts of Thaumaturgy?  They wouldn't. They might have a background in these arts from their days as Mortals, but after they pass into the realm of Demi-God-hood, they aren't really going to need these things.  Because they can brute force their way past any of these little arts.

Then why shouldn't they have access to them without spending tons of XP?  This is probably just a difference of personal taste.  I think that if Twilights are the enchanters and artificers they shouldn't have to learn the weak magics separately; they should be learned on their way towards mastering the truly powerful magics.  My preferred progression is Twilight learns how to enchant normally (Occult 2), then learns how to enchant with spells (Occult 3) and eventually learns how to create artifacts of great power.   I don't like that they have to spend extra XPs to learn the weakest magics; learning them should be part of their natural progression towards true power.

I, myself, just use the Thaumaturgy section as a guideline for what a trained Occutist can do, like it was done in the Corebook.  

Definitely better than the published rules IMO.

 

[Jakk Bey]

Why do they have to spend a ton of XP? Because they are inefficient, muddled, with contradictory rules, and a ton of misunderstandings and odd bits of fluff that have no real reason, save that they've been in the ritual for a long, long, long time.  


They work. But I like to think of Thaumaturgy like cooking.  A talented cook who learns from someone who has cooked a long time, who learned from someone else, but has had no formal training has odd habits, sometimes even practices techniques that while they might work, eventually, they aren't as refined as someone who has been actually trained as a chef.  Knife skills can improve with practice, but you learn oen way, it's hard to break those bad habits later--like oiling your pasta water, as opposed to your cooked pasta.  Like poor knife sharpening technique. Like skinning salmon skin side up.  You can achieve your purpose doing things like this, but it's not as efficient as a trained chef.


Exalts who want to spend a lot of time on these Mortal arts are going to learn the bad with the good.  They are going to learn some neat things, but it's going to have all the baggage that has accrued over the years.


Now then, an Exalt who wanted to reform these ideas, they could take the time to learn these arts, combine them with their own recockulous levels of Occult, winnow these techniques down with the assist of a few Gods, Demons, and Spirits as their guide, and come down with a whole new, revised set of Thaumaturgy--which would be a good reason: to see how badly Mortals have mucked things up, and then edit them down.  This new form of Celestially blessed, revised and edited Thaumaturgy might cost less XP, because it is winnowed down and easier to learn, without all the clap trap that was added to hide things.


Take Alchemy as practiced in Europe. The language was odd, the symbols hidden.  The real art to Alchemy wasn't in the process, but in decyphering the master's notes, because they were in code, to hide their best secrets.  Same with Chinese Alchemy.  Lots of the 'techniques' were just so much clap trap to draw out the unwary and prevent the master's secrets from falling into the wrong hands--without a guide to decypher the code, you had to infer, experiment, and hopefully be able to adjust and adapt what you found, and often, that was just not happening.  Same for Thaumaturgy in my mind.

 

[Persell]

Interesting possiblety Jakk.


ANd I'll agree with the basic Idea.


The main reason a Exalt will study thaumatalagy is to teach it to mortals.

 

[Quorlox]

If an Exalt learned Hedge Magic, he did so when he was Mortal. If he wants to perform really neat-o effects and enchantments, he can do so with a custom made spell. Provide potions? How about a Terrestrial or Celestial Circle that does the work for him?

How about this for a Terrestrial Circle potion-creating spell:  


Multifarious Potion Distillation


Cost: 10 motes


Target: Potion Material


Exalts are often requested to heal the sick, mend the injured, and boost the performance of mortal soldiers in combat.  This spell allows an Exalt to create any potion, paste, tea, etc. normally created through alchemy in only one day (See PG p. 138-143 for typical formulas).  The spell requires the use of an alchemical lab (Resources 4 to purchase, Resources 3 per month to maintain).  The Exalt must also spend one hour collecting local materials per Resource cost of the potion, although the materials gathered need not be the materials typically required for the potion.  The Exalt makes an Int + Occult roll with using the regular Difficulty of the desired potion.   For each success, the Exalt creates one potion.  Once created, potions are considered identical to potions created through regular alchemy, except that they have no harmful side-effects.  While in most cases this is good, it prevents the spell from being used to create poisons or addictive drugs such as cocaine.

 

[Persell]

sounds interesting.


Im not sure if it should be a charm or a spell myself


but I WILL Agree that an exalted should have a short cut to achieving most of the same thigns that mortal thaumatalagy can only better.


one more thing though


why dont exalted sorcerers have a spell to summon spirits or mortals?


just curious.

 

[Quorlox]

Im not sure if it should be a charm or a spell myself

It seems like a spell to me; why do you think it could be a Charm?  

why dont exalted sorcerers have a spell to summon spirits or mortals?

A mortal spell makes sense.  Which spirits are you inquiring about?

 

[Persell]

not sure because this is enhancing mortal thaumatalagy.


And for spirits


Im thinking celestial lions.

 

[Quorlox]

And for spirits


Im thinking celestial lions.

Maybe they can.  Summon Elemental is a Terrestrial Circle spell; there could be a Celestial or Solar Circle spell that summons certain spirits.