Viewpoint What Do You Look For in an RP?

[WanderLust.]

I recently started a new Star Wars roleplay and have been actively trying to recruit more users to join. Besides just bumping the interest check - I'm curious what else I can do to make the thread more attractive to a wider range of users. I've been thinking on a few points of concern that I'm eager to hear people's thoughts on...

1. Pre-Determined Roles - Typically, pre-determined roles make it a lot easier for me as a GM to world build and plan out a general plot arch for the story. However, I know pre-determined roles can also hinder the creative freedom of character building which may be a turn off to potential applicants. What are your preferences?

2. Discord OOC - I'm aware this one has been a hot button topic, but I use discord for most of my OOC plotting and chatting. Because of this, I usually opt to make discord mandatory for my threads so that non-discord users don't get left in the dust trying to plot on RPN when everyone else is essentially instant messaging and plotting on discord. For this one, I guess my biggest question is why there is such a divide on discord vs. non discord threads. Would it be better to make discord optional and let people fend for themselves when plotting with other users?

3. Fancy Posts/Coding - I used to find coding and fancy posts SO intimidating, but once I got the hang of them, I fell in love with them. For my interest check, I used a fancy post that admittedly can be a little tricky to navigate if you're not familiar with fancy posts in general. I never require fancy posts for any of my threads, but a lot of my applicants use them. I'm curious if this scares non-fancy post users away or if it's a relative non-issue? I've debated adding an uncoded version of the interest check below the coded version for ease... but am unsure if this would make much of a difference.

4. Writing Sample - so this one's been a personal grapple of mine for a while. For most of my threads, I request a writing sample be submitted with the application to ensure that the user is writing at the appropriate level (i.e. they're capable of the post length requirement, it isn't littered with confusing grammatical errors, and that I can read it and remain engrossed in their story telling without feeling like I'm proof-reading) Admittedly, I've turned away a couple applicants because their writing sample was not up to par, but at the end of the day I'd rather have high quality writing with fewer users than sacrifice the integrity of the posts for more members. When you see that a thread has a writing sample requirement - does it make you more hesitant to join the thread?

Anyways - would love to hear feedback on any of these topics and would be willing to link the interest check if anybody has constructive criticism to offer!

 

[GojiBean]

Hoyo!

Good question!

1) The idea that pre-determined roles "hinders the creative freedom" of a role player is a myth, and 100% false. In fact, more often than not it's quite the opposite. It's because of the limitations of pre-determined roles that many people often do their best character creation and writing. And the reason why has to do with the fact that limitations force our brains into a more deeply creative space to find the answers we're looking for about who we want our characters to be, why they do what they do, and both who and what we want them to become over the course of the adventure.

Igor Stravinsky said it best about music composition, but it translates to all artistic medium: "I have no use for a theoretic freedom. Let me have something finite, definite — matter that can lend itself to my operation only insofar as it is commensurate with my possibilities. And such matter presents itself to me together with limitations. I must in turn impose mine upon it. So here we are, whether we like it or not, in the realm of necessity. And yet which of us has ever heard talk of art as other than a realm of freedom? This sort of heresy is uniformly widespread because it is imagined that art is outside the bounds of ordinary activity. Well, in art as in everything else, one can build only upon a resisting foundation: whatever constantly gives way to pressure, constantly renders movement impossible."

Psychologically, pre-determined roles are less appealing than being able to carve out your own niche. Most role players would prefer that freedom. But it's not because it's actually "freeing," like they might believe. It's because they crave that extra level of control as opposed to having control taken away.

If you want to impose pre-determined roles on the RP, do so. It's not something to be afraid of, ashamed of, or fearful of with respect to whether or not it'll help or harm those who want to join. The folks who are okay with giving up that little bit of control about the role of their character in the RP will be happy to join. Those who don't want to give up that control will avoid it. It's that simple.

2) For Discord, it's up to you. As the GM you have the right to run your RP however you want. The outside opinions and preferences of others do not apply. If you want Discord OOC to be mandatory, make it mandatory. It's your RP. If other people don't like it they can find another one to join.

3) If you enjoy using fancy BBCode to spruce up your own posts, go for it. It's a relatively non-issue for most people. If they see it, they know that you enjoy using it. So long as there's no mention of anyone having to do the same if they want to join/participate they're likely to still join if they have interest in the core material the RP presents. If others want to use BBCode to spruce up their posts, they will. I myself enjoy BBCode quite a bit. It tickles my creative funny bone and I have fun putting it together. But I never mention whether others need to do the same since it's something I prefer leaving up to the individual. But that's just me.

4) A request for a writing sample, for me, is not a turn off. In fact, I enjoy putting samples together because it's a chance for me to write. I've met several both here and on other sites who hate it when they're asked for a sample. However, that's a preference. Much the same as anything else about requirements to join an RP. If they don't like it, they can find another RP to join. As the GM you have every right to vet the folks who want to throw their lot in with your offered RP experience. You have a vision for your RP, and you're doing what you feel is best to fulfill it. If others don't want to provide a sample, they can join another RP. If they're okay with a sample, they'll send you one. So long as you're respectful about how you request your sample, and in how you analyze the samples to determine whether or not to accept someone into the RP, then you've nothing to worry about.

Cheers!

- GojiBean

 

[A Sparkling Zombie]

I agree with Goji's position of "it's your roleplay - do what you want and you'll find like-minded players." But I'm bored waiting for my DM, so I'm gonna give my two cents.

Pre-determined roles - I think Goji hit the nail on the head. I used to complain about this in my younger years, then I tried it and didn't mind it. I even tried it out myself as a GM a couple times, because like you said, it can give better direction/control over the plot. I think where most people complain, though, is when a lot of backstory or personality is predetermined for the character.

Discord OOC - I can't say I've ever seen it go well when Discord and non-Discord users coexist in a group. The non-Discord users don't get much traction not being in the central hub of communication. YMMV.

Fancy Posts/Coding - I admit I'm one of those who detests this aspect of RPN's culture. I can understand the passion for the creative outlet, but it bothers me how many of the codes have accessibility issues. But as Goji said, do what you want and you'll find like-minded players. Also providing a plaintext/mobile-friendly version of the interest could be helpful. I'm not sure by how much.

Writing Samples - I approve of this both as a GM and a player. It's a way to gauge chemistry, and that's important for a roleplay to go well.

 

[kawaiiyote]

I recently started a new Star Wars roleplay and have been actively trying to recruit more users to join. Besides just bumping the interest check - I'm curious what else I can do to make the thread more attractive to a wider range of users. I've been thinking on a few points of concern that I'm eager to hear people's thoughts on...

1. Pre-Determined Roles - Typically, pre-determined roles make it a lot easier for me as a GM to world build and plan out a general plot arch for the story. However, I know pre-determined roles can also hinder the creative freedom of character building which may be a turn off to potential applicants. What are your preferences?

2. Discord OOC - I'm aware this one has been a hot button topic, but I use discord for most of my OOC plotting and chatting. Because of this, I usually opt to make discord mandatory for my threads so that non-discord users don't get left in the dust trying to plot on RPN when everyone else is essentially instant messaging and plotting on discord. For this one, I guess my biggest question is why there is such a divide on discord vs. non discord threads. Would it be better to make discord optional and let people fend for themselves when plotting with other users?

3. Fancy Posts/Coding - I used to find coding and fancy posts SO intimidating, but once I got the hang of them, I fell in love with them. For my interest check, I used a fancy post that admittedly can be a little tricky to navigate if you're not familiar with fancy posts in general. I never require fancy posts for any of my threads, but a lot of my applicants use them. I'm curious if this scares non-fancy post users away or if it's a relative non-issue? I've debated adding an uncoded version of the interest check below the coded version for ease... but am unsure if this would make much of a difference.

4. Writing Sample - so this one's been a personal grapple of mine for a while. For most of my threads, I request a writing sample be submitted with the application to ensure that the user is writing at the appropriate level (i.e. they're capable of the post length requirement, it isn't littered with confusing grammatical errors, and that I can read it and remain engrossed in their story telling without feeling like I'm proof-reading) Admittedly, I've turned away a couple applicants because their writing sample was not up to par, but at the end of the day I'd rather have high quality writing with fewer users than sacrifice the integrity of the posts for more members. When you see that a thread has a writing sample requirement - does it make you more hesitant to join the thread?

Anyways - would love to hear feedback on any of these topics and would be willing to link the interest check if anybody has constructive criticism to offer!

fun question! i will start off with: i know you want to make the thread to appeal to a large number of participants, but remember it's more important to have the right writers than the most. especially since you mention vetting writing capability later on. a few active, engaged writers beats dozens of lurkers or people who don't vibe with your vision for your rp.

1. i don't mind pre-determined roles a bit so long as i get to make the character that will fill them. i want to be able to pick my own character's faceclaim, name, backstory, personality, etc. - but it can be really helpful plotwise if i'm doing so within the confines of a certain role. skeleton roleplays are really popular for this reason. it can also be a great way to drum up background plots among the writers.

2. i really enjoy discord. i think if some people have the ability to plot there and others don't, your concern about them being left in the dust will be completely valid. hell, i'm often left in the plotting dust even when using discord! generally i say let people fend for themselves, but if i were running an rp with an actual plot i think i'd prefer everyone to have a central hub to get updates from and to be able to easily get in touch with them. it's a fair ask.

3. personally, fancy codes are difficult for me to read. they're all but unreadable on the phone screen, period. i also find they're a turn off because i assume i won't be able to keep up/get anyone's interest by not using fancy codes. absolutely no shade to people who enjoy and use them! this is just how i feel and my take on it. if you want fancy code in your rp, by all means, use it!

4. i consider writing samples vitally important. it sucks to have to turn someone away because their writing isn't up to par, but it facilitates a community that jibes with what you want from your rp. and, once you've got a few members who do jibe, it's sort of your job to do some quality control to maintain their enjoyment and keep the standards where you promised. i always make people very aware they're applying with their sample, meaning there's a chance of being declined based on it. be clear about your expectations. i often remind people not to apply if being declined is going to ruin their day or sabotage their confidence. to answer your question: sample requirements (and a clearly established and enforced minimum age requirement) make me more likely to join an rp.

 

[Jet]

1. Pre-determined roles are constricting and what purpose to they have? I've never seen the mechanic spin valves and bang pipes for concurrent posts. It also elevates certain members when you have powerful positions, aka the ones people always choose first, stuff like captain and first mate or the commanding officer, and some roles give more freedom for creation than others — making it an unfair practice. I've seen roles like "mysterious stranger" where they can be anything from a princess to a general or some kind of criminal. While some chud needs to write a dishwasher or deckhand.

GojiBean This is a very subjective discussion that you're approaching with concrete statements of fact. I know many people who despise pre-made roles because it limits their freedom — myself included. I'm best when given a blank canvas so I can write exactly what I want, not a template to cram my ideas into. When I was younger and knew absolutely nothing about how to write, perhaps they would've had value, but I don't need training wheels with 10 years experience. All premades do is bend my ideas into a shape they weren't supposed to be in. They don't force me to make any new or more interesting ones.

WanderLust. Getting back to the point, I won't consider RPs with pre-made roles, because to me it's GM overreach, indicative of incompatible views on GM/Player relationships. I view players as equal partners and as a game master, my role is to serve players and give them an arena for their ideas. The more freedom I can afford them the better, so I never use arbitrary restrictions such as roles and templates. Make what you want and have fun. I'll worry about fit if it becomes a problem, but in my experience (GMed multiple RPs with over 1000 medium/long posts) that has never been a problem. Not even once. Team composition is a theoretical issue that's never made an appearance in 10 years of writing.

2. The rest of your points are fine with me as a prospective member. Discord OOC completely stomps forum OOC, and code doesn't matter as long as it's not mandatory. I also think writing samples are the best way to select good writers, rather than arbitrary (and unfair to efficient writers) length quotas like we're in High School.

Edit

GojiBean you wrote the following,

"Most role players would prefer that freedom. But it's not because it's actually "freeing," like they might believe. It's because they crave that extra level of control as opposed to having control taken away."

Having control of your own actions would be freedom, the loss of control would be the loss of freedom. No offense but you seem word-salady to avoid the ugly truth that yes, your freedom is curtailed with premades, and roles help people who struggle with decision making. If you have no issue making decisions then pre-mades are unnecessary and annoying. What's awesome about running a more free RP without premades, is you can offer roles to those who need the assistance, and everyone else can write without the help.

 

[GojiBean]

1. Pre-determined roles are constricting and what purpose to they have? I've never seen the team mechanic spend three posts on spinning valves and fixing pipes. It also elevates certain members when you have powerful positions, aka the ones people choose first, stuff like captain and first mate or a unit's commanding officer, and some roles give much more freedom for character creation than others — making it an unfair practice. I've seen roles like "mysterious stranger" where they can be anything under the sun, from nobility to a general or some kind of fugitive. While another bad-luck Brian needs to write a dishwasher or deckhand. Kind of hard to make a realistic dishwasher who isn't a specific character archetype, probably a young one looking to prove themselves on the mission.

GojiBean This is a very subjective discussion that you're approaching with objective statements of fact. I know many people who are limited by pre-made roles, myself among them. I'm most creative when given a blank canvas so I can create what I want, not a pre-made template to fit ideas inside. Perhaps that would've helped me when I was a young and struggling writer, but I don't need training wheels with 10 years of experience.

WanderLust. Getting back to the point, I won't consider RPs with pre-made roles, because to me it's GM overreach, indicative of incompatible views on GM/Player relationships. I view players as equal partners and as a GM, my role is to serve players and give them an arena for their ideas. The more freedom I can afford the better, so I never use arbitrary restrictions such as roles and templates. Make what you want and have fun. I'll worry about fit if it becomes a problem, but in my experience, most people naturally assume roles, and attempt to avoid character overlap without my help.

The rest of your points are fine with me as a prospective member. Discord OOC >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> forum OOC, and code doesn't matter as long as it's not mandatory. I also think writing samples are the best way to select good writers, rather than arbitrary (and unfair to efficient writers) length quotas like we're in High School.

1) What purpose do they have? Here's a short list, but there's more which could be added:

• The GM has a vision for their roleplay's central narrative, and predetermined roles help them more easily shape that narrative from the outset of the roleplay
• They allow a GM who has their own comfort zone shape the nature and face of the cast that will be part of the experience which may help them stay motivated and inspired
• For fandoms, they can help narrow down the GM's favorite characters (and the other participant's favorites if the GM includes them in the making of the list) and ensure each role is filled
• They allow participants, as I mentioned, to exercise a deeper and more expansive level of creative thinking to make something unique out of what feels like a tiny box
• They provide a comfort zone for those who prefer an assigned role in a roleplay since not all role players prefer a blank canvas, and in fact they can instead find them intimidating and demoralizing

The list goes on, but for brevity's sake I'll leave it here for now.

2) Predetermined roles only "elevate" certain members when they're designed to do so. You brought up an example or two. So, I'll bring up an example to the contrary to prove the point.

A high school roleplay where the predetermined roles are: the sporty guy, the sporty girl, the book nerd guy, the book nerd girl, the student council president, the class rep, the artist, the science nerd, etc?

Who's elevated there? The answer is "no one," because any sense for being in an "elevated" role is either circumstantial, arbitrary, or both.

For example, being the student council president means jack shit to those who don't care about or respect the position. Being sporty doesn't make anyone "better" than anyone else. Being smarter doesn't make you better. Nobody's elevated here because they're all high school kids just trying to get by and find their place on the social hierarchy while enjoying their hobbies and trying to figure out their futures.

To blanketly claim that predetermined roles elevates some members is a logical fallacy without merit, Jet. And this isn't the last time you'll see me write this statement to you.

Not all roleplays are created equal. And not all roleplays which use the same mechanics have the same problems. If a roleplay of any design has problems, it's much more likely to be a problem with how the GM has chosen to implement them rather than it is the existence of the mechanics themselves.

3) The fact I can bring objective statements of fact into this discussion is an important point which you seem to have overlooked, despite you being the one to point out I was using them.

Facts matter, Jet. Even in a subjective domain like creative writing there are objective facts to be observed and which can help improve one's writing ability and overall understanding of the creative writing medium.

And here's a fact: The only reason you feel limited by the restriction of pre-determined roles is because you've convinced yourself that this is true.

Like I said, it's a psychological thing. If you've ever heard the phrase "I believe, therefore I am," then this should not come as a surprise to you that your feeling of being restricted is a product of your own making. Not the doing of others. And certainly not by nature of the fact that the mechanic of predetermined roles exist. You've convinced yourself that you're more limited when they're present. So that's the reality you've shaped in your own head. The same is true of you claiming that you're more creative when given a blank canvas. You've convinced yourself that this is true, so therefore it now is your truth.

Both both could easily be reversed with the right practice or writing routine. I'm not telling you to do it. But it could be done. And it has been. I would know because I've made just such a change myself in my earlier years of roleplaying.

I used to roleplay exclusively with predetermined roles when I started out and was less confident as a writer. I was looking to fill a role I was comfortable with because I thought that's all I could do. But through practice and repetition I was able to break out of that mindset, and now I'm more comfortable leaving roles open just like you prefer to do. Can I still write in a predetermined role? Absolutely. Would I prefer it? Not anymore. But I can do it. And the only reason I can is because I grew confident enough with my writing skill to see that I could do both instead of being stuck in one.

Psychology is a powerful force. And if you were to open your mind a bit and practice predetermined roles you'd find the "restrictive" feeling going away with each repetition just as you would with any other skill. Because writing in a predetermined role is a skill just as writing without them is a skill. The more you do it, the easier and more liberating it becomes regardless of whatever restrictions might seem to be there on the surface. It doesn't mean that you'll ever come to see it as your number one preference. But at the very least if you gave it a shot you'd find that it works wonders to think positively forward rather than negatively into the past.

4) Pre-determined roles are not GM overreach. This is a fact I'm not going to budge on as a 20+ year creative writing vet.

The GM is the creator of the roleplay, and therefore they're free to run it however they please. Period.

The inclusion of any mechanics are their choice to bring. And theirs alone. No matter the mechanics or overall construction of the roleplay, every decision is theirs to make.

If a GM overreaches, it's going to be because of a decision on their end which ultimately has little to nothing to do with the mechanics they've brought to the table so much as their own poor judgement or lack of proper leadership qualities. For example, if a GM makes a predetermined role list for DBZ and they're taking the position of Goku and leaving the roles of Vegeta, Piccolo, Gohan, Krillin, Goten, Trunks, and Pan open, how is this overreaching?

On its own, it's not. But what about the whole "power scaling" thing and how Goku's always number one and Vegeta's always number two and everyone else falls kind of nebulously behind because of their pure-blooded Saiyan power and instincts?

Well, to that I ask if we've confirmed whether or not the GM plans to account for that flaw in the source material and make changes to ensure everyone's characters are relevant and equivalent in importance outside of their power level? If we haven't confirmed whether or not the GM is cognizant of the flaws in the source material and is taking steps to mitigate the potential negative impact it could have if they didn't address it, how can we claim they're overreaching in any way, shape or form?

Also, perhaps I'm overanalyzing, but your phrasing implies you believe that a GM who uses predetermined roles doesn't view their partners as equals. But this too would be a logical fallacy without merit.

Such an argument doesn't even try to consider the personality of the GM, nor the reasons they're using the mechanic of predetermined roles. As I alluded to in my bullet point list at the top of this response there are many GM's who use it because it's their comfort zone, or because they want a certain kind of character cast in the roleplay because they think it would make for the most fun experience. Does this make them some kind of disrespectful heathen who doesn't view their partners as equals? Does it mean their intention is to deprive their participants of creative freedom? Does it mean that by using the mechanic they're automatically doing either, or both?

Absolutely not.

Ultimately, whether a roleplay and its mechanics are implemented well and serve the group of participants depends solely on who the GM is, how they behave, how the conduct themselves in a leadership role, and the nature of their decisions along the way.

A bad GM will create a bad roleplay experience. And a good GM will create a good roleplay experience. The mechanics alone are not enough regardless of anyone's personal distaste for any which are on the table.

-------------------

The saddest part about this whole thing is that you even say it yourself near the end: "Make what you want and have fun."

And yet nearly your entire response is combative in its presentation, and the blanket statement fallacies you brought to the table really aren't helping carry your argument against the presence and usage of predetermined roles.

Either way, I'm going to leave off with this: It would do you good to open your mind, Jet.

You'll serve yourself and the community better by doing so.

Cheers!

- GojiBean

 

[Uxie]

I recently started a new Star Wars roleplay and have been actively trying to recruit more users to join. Besides just bumping the interest check - I'm curious what else I can do to make the thread more attractive to a wider range of users. I've been thinking on a few points of concern that I'm eager to hear people's thoughts on...

1. Pre-Determined Roles - Typically, pre-determined roles make it a lot easier for me as a GM to world build and plan out a general plot arch for the story. However, I know pre-determined roles can also hinder the creative freedom of character building which may be a turn off to potential applicants. What are your preferences?

2. Discord OOC - I'm aware this one has been a hot button topic, but I use discord for most of my OOC plotting and chatting. Because of this, I usually opt to make discord mandatory for my threads so that non-discord users don't get left in the dust trying to plot on RPN when everyone else is essentially instant messaging and plotting on discord. For this one, I guess my biggest question is why there is such a divide on discord vs. non discord threads. Would it be better to make discord optional and let people fend for themselves when plotting with other users?

3. Fancy Posts/Coding - I used to find coding and fancy posts SO intimidating, but once I got the hang of them, I fell in love with them. For my interest check, I used a fancy post that admittedly can be a little tricky to navigate if you're not familiar with fancy posts in general. I never require fancy posts for any of my threads, but a lot of my applicants use them. I'm curious if this scares non-fancy post users away or if it's a relative non-issue? I've debated adding an uncoded version of the interest check below the coded version for ease... but am unsure if this would make much of a difference.

4. Writing Sample - so this one's been a personal grapple of mine for a while. For most of my threads, I request a writing sample be submitted with the application to ensure that the user is writing at the appropriate level (i.e. they're capable of the post length requirement, it isn't littered with confusing grammatical errors, and that I can read it and remain engrossed in their story telling without feeling like I'm proof-reading) Admittedly, I've turned away a couple applicants because their writing sample was not up to par, but at the end of the day I'd rather have high quality writing with fewer users than sacrifice the integrity of the posts for more members. When you see that a thread has a writing sample requirement - does it make you more hesitant to join the thread?

Anyways - would love to hear feedback on any of these topics and would be willing to link the interest check if anybody has constructive criticism to offer!

fun little discussion! i'm not sure how much more help i can be on top of the others who've already offered good advice, but i'm giving my two cents anyways (o*･ω･)ﾉ

1. goji's put a sentiment i've been thinking for years really clearly into words. that said, if you're worried about it, you can always offer the option for players to propose their own roles to you — i can't say how many will actually reach out to you about it, but it's a good way to sort-of hit the best of both worlds, if you're comfortable with the idea!

adding on to this with some personal experiences, given the discussion above; i've always preferred having pre-determined roles, especially in an unfamiliar setting — sometimes a concept just doesn't come to me if i don't know the lore well enough, or if insufficient information about the plot direction has been given that i can't visualise what kind of character would suit it well. i've honestly found it easier for characters to fit into stories because of roles, if they're well-written, since the boundaries set can usually lend themselves well to prevent overlaps between characters + plotting for dynamics.

the only caveat is not having any one character be overly elevated, like cautioned by jet, nor having it be too strict in its outline. the best roles allow for multiple interpretations, which will all contribute to the plot in the about-the-same meaningful way, and i've seen it happen lots! always interesting to see how someone's character for a role is different from something i would've written for it. you can always ask a friend for advice/vetting if you're worried about either (^_~)

2. there are other threads in the discussion forums who have gone into the discord dilemma. i personally would mandate a discord ooc if i were a gm, just because i've seen it allow for far more organic relationships to form, which can prolong the life of your roleplay. it isn't always necessary, and will most likely depend on the group of people you attract. that said, i would 100% advise you to not leave it as optional — as much as you try to keep non-discord users in the loop, it's so much work for you and has a higher chance of not working out to keep the non-discord players committed, IMO. save yourself the trouble 人(_ _*)

3. even as someone who codes and uses it everywhere, absolutely yes put an uncoded spoiler. a matter of accessibility on one hand, but also that code just isn't always pretty to look at on mobile, even if it's friendly. i'm always grateful to be able to read the content in a more simple presentation when i'm looking around on my phone every once in a while,, and riding on the initial bit of attention that pushed them to click the thread in the first place can mean pulling another person's interest ultimately!

not to say that code has anything to do with writing skill, but i will say i consider people who like and use code to be almost a category (? idk if that's the right word here) of users on this site, in terms of having somewhat common interests and writing quality (length + proficiency). not always guaranteed, since most of the best writers i've met who also use code don't take it as a major consideration, if at all, but as you use more code/meet more people in roleplays you'll probably get a better sensing of who you're trying to appeal to and have in your roleplays!

4. it depends on the sort of writing sample asked for, personally! a past post might be fine, or even something that replaces an aspect of the character sheet — i had a friend who asked for a character's concept blurb in place of a fleshed-out persona or history description which also functioned as a writing sample, something to simultaneously get to know the character while also checking for writing quality. i'm a little too busy right now that if i was just handed a completely random prompt i might pass on it, but don't be cautious about asking for samples nor rejecting anyone because of them!

 

[Jet]

1) What purpose do they have? Here's a short list, but there's more which could be added:

• The GM has a vision for their roleplay's central narrative, and predetermined roles help them more easily shape that narrative from the outset of the roleplay
• They allow a GM who has their own comfort zone shape the nature and face of the cast that will be part of the experience which may help them stay motivated and inspired
• For fandoms, they can help narrow down the GM's favorite characters (and the other participant's favorites if the GM includes them in the making of the list) and ensure each role is filled
• They allow participants, as I mentioned, to exercise a deeper and more expansive level of creative thinking to make something unique out of what feels like a tiny box
• They provide a comfort zone for those who prefer an assigned role in a roleplay since not all role players prefer a blank canvas, and in fact they can instead find them intimidating and demoralizing

The list goes on, but for brevity's sake I'll leave it here for now.

2) Predetermined roles only "elevate" certain members when they're designed to do so. You brought up an example or two. So, I'll bring up an example to the contrary to prove the point.

A high school roleplay where the predetermined roles are: the sporty guy, the sporty girl, the book nerd guy, the book nerd girl, the student council president, the class rep, the artist, the science nerd, etc?

Who's elevated there? The answer is "no one," because any sense for being in an "elevated" role is either circumstantial, arbitrary, or both.

For example, being the student council president means jack shit to those who don't care about or respect the position. Being sporty doesn't make anyone "better" than anyone else. Being smarter doesn't make you better. Nobody's elevated here because they're all high school kids just trying to get by and find their place on the social hierarchy while enjoying their hobbies and trying to figure out their futures.

To blanketly claim that predetermined roles elevates some members is a logical fallacy without merit, Jet. And this isn't the last time you'll see me write this statement to you.

Not all roleplays are created equal. And not all roleplays which use the same mechanics have the same problems. If a roleplay of any design has problems, it's much more likely to be a problem with how the GM has chosen to implement them rather than it is the existence of the mechanics themselves.

3) The fact I can bring objective statements of fact into this discussion is an important point which you seem to have overlooked, despite you being the one to point out I was using them.

Facts matter, Jet. Even in a subjective domain like creative writing there are objective facts to be observed and which can help improve one's writing ability and overall understanding of the creative writing medium.

And here's a fact: The only reason you feel limited by the restriction of pre-determined roles is because you've convinced yourself that this is true.

Like I said, it's a psychological thing. If you've ever heard the phrase "I believe, therefore I am," then this should not come as a surprise to you that your feeling of being restricted is a product of your own making. Not the doing of others. And certainly not by nature of the fact that the mechanic of predetermined roles exist. You've convinced yourself that you're more limited when they're present. So that's the reality you've shaped in your own head. The same is true of you claiming that you're more creative when given a blank canvas. You've convinced yourself that this is true, so therefore it now is your truth.

Both both could easily be reversed with the right practice or writing routine. I'm not telling you to do it. But it could be done. And it has been. I would know because I've made just such a change myself in my earlier years of roleplaying.

I used to roleplay exclusively with predetermined roles when I started out and was less confident as a writer. I was looking to fill a role I was comfortable with because I thought that's all I could do. But through practice and repetition I was able to break out of that mindset, and now I'm more comfortable leaving roles open just like you prefer to do. Can I still write in a predetermined role? Absolutely. Would I prefer it? Not anymore. But I can do it. And the only reason I can is because I grew confident enough with my writing skill to see that I could do both instead of being stuck in one.

Psychology is a powerful force. And if you were to open your mind a bit and practice predetermined roles you'd find the "restrictive" feeling going away with each repetition just as you would with any other skill. Because writing in a predetermined role is a skill just as writing without them is a skill. The more you do it, the easier and more liberating it becomes regardless of whatever restrictions might seem to be there on the surface. It doesn't mean that you'll ever come to see it as your number one preference. But at the very least if you gave it a shot you'd find that it works wonders to think positively forward rather than negatively into the past.

4) Pre-determined roles are not GM overreach. This is a fact I'm not going to budge on as a 20+ year creative writing vet.

The GM is the creator of the roleplay, and therefore they're free to run it however they please. Period.

The inclusion of any mechanics are their choice to bring. And theirs alone. No matter the mechanics or overall construction of the roleplay, every decision is theirs to make.

If a GM overreaches, it's going to be because of a decision on their end which ultimately has little to nothing to do with the mechanics they've brought to the table so much as their own poor judgement or lack of proper leadership qualities. For example, if a GM makes a predetermined role list for DBZ and they're taking the position of Goku and leaving the roles of Vegeta, Piccolo, Gohan, Krillin, Goten, Trunks, and Pan open, how is this overreaching?

On its own, it's not. But what about the whole "power scaling" thing and how Goku's always number one and Vegeta's always number two and everyone else falls kind of nebulously behind because of their pure-blooded Saiyan power and instincts?

Well, to that I ask if we've confirmed whether or not the GM plans to account for that flaw in the source material and make changes to ensure everyone's characters are relevant and equivalent in importance outside of their power level? If we haven't confirmed whether or not the GM is cognizant of the flaws in the source material and is taking steps to mitigate the potential negative impact it could have if they didn't address it, how can we claim they're overreaching in any way, shape or form?

Also, perhaps I'm overanalyzing, but your phrasing implies you believe that a GM who uses predetermined roles doesn't view their partners as equals. But this too would be a logical fallacy without merit.

Such an argument doesn't even try to consider the personality of the GM, nor the reasons they're

using the mechanic of predetermined roles. As I alluded to in my bullet point list at the top of this response there are many GM's who use it because it's their comfort zone, or because they want a certain kind of character cast in the roleplay because they think it would make for the most fun experience. Does this make them some kind of disrespectful heathen who doesn't view their partners as equals? Does it mean their intention is to deprive their participants of creative freedom? Does it mean that by using the mechanic they're automatically doing either, or both?

Absolutely not.

Ultimately, whether a roleplay and its mechanics are implemented well and serve the group of participants depends solely on who the GM is, how they behave, how the conduct themselves in a leadership role, and the nature of their decisions along the way.

A bad GM will create a bad roleplay experience. And a good GM will create a good roleplay experience. The mechanics alone are not enough regardless of anyone's personal distaste for any which are on the table.

-------------------

The saddest part about this whole thing is that you even say it yourself near the end: "Make what you want and have fun."

And yet nearly your entire response is combative in its presentation, and the blanket statement fallacies you brought to the table really aren't helping carry your argument against the presence and usage of predetermined roles.

Either way, I'm going to leave off with this: It would do you good to open your mind, Jet.

You'll serve yourself and the community better by doing so.

Cheers!

- GojiBean

1. Exactly. This is a marked difference between my philosophy and what you believe in. In my opinion, my responsibilities don't revolve around making my own experience easier, especially by forcing people into creative corners. Nor have I needed to box people into roles for my plots to function. I make stories that work collaboratively with ideas of different flavors, instead of looking for people to populate my specific vision.

And once again you make a blanket statement that is completely subjective, many people see absolutely no benefit in being forced into a specific role, and for many it's a negative drain on their creativity. You once again made this statement like it has any truth to it whatsoever, while my argument was basically, "It helps some people and hurts other people, and one size doesn't fit all."

2. "Without merit" lmao, a ship captain has command authority over his crew. Your argument is filled with double speak to obscure the truths of how this plays out. The ship captain is elevated over the crew because they have authority over them. The soldier is elevated over the cast because during combat scenes, they will outclass the others. Explain how a dishwasher will outclass anyone? Explain where the dishwasher will have authority over anyone? You conveniently chose a setting where the characters have no authority over each other, and used that to represent all premade roles ever. Why not choose an example where a power hierarchy exists?

3. You need paragraphs to explain why freedom actually isn't freedom, and losing self agency isn't actually losing self agency. Occams Razor. If you force people into choosing a specific character type, that changes their backstory and the decisions they can make. It changes how effective they are in certain situations. It changes their authority and social standing, unless you genuinely believe that a king will have the same available choices as a peasant. The king will simply have more options and more ways to solve their problems. They won't face the same consequences for failure and will have authority over others, including the peasant character.

4. Again, completely different approach to management. My members are more important than me, and the story doesn't exist for my wish fulfillment. I give them a story and they populate with their characters, and I want them to have creative freedom as partners in my story. That means giving them freedom to create what they want (including lore if they want), and only limiting freedom when it threatens general cohesion. There's nothing I can say about your approach. It's your opinion, but you struggle with understanding how others create.

5. Take me for example. You keep talking about how premades actually enrich freedom by taking away their freedoms, but for me, my creative process is destroyed by premades unless I'm lucky. I look at a setting and think of what character I would like to write, including their vocation and background, and then I plant them in the world. I don't sit there thinking "what kind of deckhand can I write."

I sit there thinking, "what kind of character would I like to write."

Occasionally that has been humble characters with little agency, sometimes its a much more prestigious character. But I get absolutely nothing out of premade positions. It's an annoyance running contradictory to what I actually want to write.

And I value fit with roles as well. If I'm writing a cook then I'm making a cook. Not a cook moonlighting as a samurai who's related to King Henry. I'm writing a cook who spent time learning how to cook, who comes from humble origins like most cooks do, who spends his time experimenting with recipes and takes food seriously. I'm not going to sneak around roles which, unfortunately, is how many people "create" in these situations. By making nonsensical characters who technically fill the role, but don't embody the spirit of the character, and reduce believability and immersion.

6. You like quotes so here's one, an open mind is an unprincipled mind. I'll happily stand on my hill and support creative freedom for all writers, and anyone tired of being told what to write, can come write with me on future projects.

7. I only sounded combative because your underlying attitude seems to be, "I'm correct and my opponents are simple minded and cannot comprehend my position."

While my position trends towards, "Premades help writers struggling with indecision and assertiveness, by giving them a central idea and parameters, and free writing helps people who don't have those issues."

One final point that's food for thought, why do you think writing classes begin with prompts and introduce free writing once people learn the basics? It's because boundaries help rookies but hurt veterans. It's always been that way with anything you can learn. In the beginning you work in strict boundaries because you can't find your own direction, but eventually you can easily find your own directions, and boundaries become annoying.

 

[WanderLust.]

Thank you guys so much for your viewpoints and suggestions - I've gone ahead and implemented a couple of them into my interest check post - which I'll link here in case anybody wants to offer constructive criticism. In sum, I added an option for a "create your own" role... which does have some parameters and will be subject to approval, but I'm hoping this will be an alternative option for those that struggle with pre-determined roles. Additionally, I did add in an uncoded version of the interest check in a spoiler at the bottom of the post.

Ultimately, I decided to leave the discord requirement as is since an overwhelming majority of people indicated that the divide between discord users and non-discord users had a strong potential to hinder plotting between members.

Fandom - Written in the Stars - Star Wars AU - Interest Check (New Roles Added)

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www.rpnation.com

 

[Jet]

Obviously I'm biased but that's a good choice, and a good middle ground if you like having roles. That would actually change my interest in your RP, and I would consider joining if my current project didn't dominate my time (GMing with 10+ characters/NPCs ).

WanderLust.