Fantasy The Land of Lynthia

[Boomrocker]

@Boomrocker
Ugh, dude, I was prepared to *hand* you the victory if you had just put in the effort to understand me. I was even drafting an apology in my head until your most recent comments were posted.

Considering your existing behavioural trends in this thread I find that concept astonishingly difficult to believe. To me, your statement appears to be a hasty attempt to find the middle ground in an attempt to placate myself, the others who share my concerns, and the GM who I must again mention has been very, very patient with us.


Plus, according to the logic of that statement, you would require me to 'lose', just so I could 'win'. What you have not yet realized is that I understand you perfectly, and I understand very clearly that I do not want to roleplay with you.


@KatsaNovari, it appears that this argument is rapidly becoming circular and I feel that I am no longer welcome here. It is with regret that I withdraw from this roleplay. Riese Vatar will leave immediately without word, as is true to his character, and resume his boozing and revelry. I apologize for any inconvenience this debate has caused.

 

[KatsaNovari]

@Thinslayer & @Boomrocker


Stepping in again. I'll give my own opinion if this will help:


I see both of your points and think you're both correct as well as wrong. I saw where Thinslayer was hurt, and it makes sense, but in the end it was just a simple misunderstanding. I'm not saying an apology for this should be made, but I understand where Thinslayer was coming from when he felt insulted, when the comment itself wasn't meant to be offensive in the slightest.


That said, it really was just a misunderstanding, and should be acknowledged as such. No harm was meant by it, and I think both could benefit if each understood where the other was coming from and take each other's words into consideration, not just your own.


 
Unless my previous reply doesn't matter anymore, in which case disregard it... I was hoping to find neutral ground and put this behind us, but if that cannot be done, then I apologize.

 

[Thinslayer]

@Boomrocker


I'll disregard your jab at my maturity.


My victory conditions are that you:


1. Understand why I was hurt, and


2. Stop misrepresenting my valuation of effectiveness vs coolness.


To me, it looks like your victory condition is for me to acknowledge that my desire for coolness is irrational and agree that it should be abandoned.

 

[KatsaNovari]

@Thinslayer


This time I think you are misunderstanding Boomrocker's points. From what I understand, he in no way meant to say that your desire for coolness is irrational, or that it should be abandoned. Only that it should still make sense at least, and not disregard realism entirely. This is a fantasy world, so that realism can be stretched and be made flexible beyond from the real world. But it should still have some structure to avoid things like flashy colored animals whose coats make it impossible to hunt or hide, overly-powered characters who could do whatever they want, and an unorganized system of law and defense so they can be attacked by anyone and defeated and characters could step all over them.


This, of course, is a clear exaggeration just to give an example. To me, a wolf being able to operate a cross bow weapon didn't seem that outrageous, but I can see the others' point, which was why I eventually agreed to come up with a compromise. I think when you said that a wolf with armor would look ridiculous, to them they think it would make more sense and therefore less ridiculous than if you were to have him operate the cross bow. (And since we're on the topic, I like to point out that you, Thinslayer, did remove it in the end so it was completely pointless to keep referencing back to it). Then this, of course, birthed the arguement on whether or not you preferred effectiveness over coolness, a fact that was being misunderstood on either side and another irrelevant issue that really didn't matter anyway. Whether one side was right or wrong really doesn't affect anything at all except maybe self-satisfaction of 'winning'.


Which brings me to our current time and place. I was willing to defend you up until now, because I really did see where you were coming from, but I can't do that now. Just like you're accusing Boomrocker of misunderstanding you, well, I think you're doing the same thing now. You're misunderstanding him and refusing to acknowledge his points, sort of like how you felt he was donig to you. Do you see where I'm getting at?


@Zerohex


I'm reeeeeeeeeaaaallly sorry for deleting your post. I thought it would be better if only I addressed this for now. I kinda skimmed through it, so if you still feel like something should be said, please send it to me and I'll give it an approval if it should be posted or not. Again, I'm sorry. I'm trying to stomp out any means of further argument.

 

[Thinslayer]

@KatsaNovari is right on the money. It was a misunderstanding. When I shot down the suggestion that Fang wear armor, it was NOT because I valued coolness over effectiveness. Effectiveness is a part of being cool. Like I said earlier, if Fang isn't effective, he's not cool.


Similarly, I thought that a wolf standing on his hind legs to shoot a crossbow was cool. You may not think so (some here think it's ridiculous), but coolness is a subjective measure.


That said, upon further reflection, I think there's some truth to your claim that I view coolness as more important than effectiveness. Between looking like an uncool dress-up toy and looking cool unarmored, going unarmored felt like the better choice. It's the same reason the hero characters in movies go without their helmets - helmets aren't usually cool, despite their being effective.


So I can grant that your provokative comment had some grounding in fact. The hurt came from how you worded it:


"You appear to think that looking good is more important than being effective in a battle."


Effectiveness in battle should be all-important. That's obvious to everyone on this forum, myself included. I know it's of utmost importance. You know it's of utmost importance. In real life. So when you publicly proclaim that I value 'looking good' over effectiveness, you make me look like a pompous idiot. You publicly shamed me, and I didn't take it well.


We're writing a story here. Being realistic, and by extension effective, must always take a back seat to making a good story. When story and realism conflict, the story comes first. Armor may be effective, but if it doesn't help the story (and the character's 'coolness' is central to his story), then it needs to be sacrificed. But since effectiveness is a part of coolness, effectiveness can't ever take a back seat.


That's where the misunderstanding arose. I wanted to find ways to make Fang effective without losing his coolness. You saw it as me simply sacrificing effectiveness. What do you think those armored teeth were for? Wolves can fight armored people without augmented teeth. They do it all the time in modern military. But they're less effective than proper soldiers in one-on-one combat. The armored fangs were implemented in order to preserve both his effectiveness and coolness.


Does that clear things up a bit?

 

[Zerohex]

I PMd it to you, but between deleting the post without warning and having a mission statement of "trying to stomp out any means of further argument" I'm also considering leaving the roleplay, especially since it's clear that if Boomrocker actually wanted to reply he would've done so by now. Oh look at that he unsubscribed from the threads. If you just let Thinslayer post, I'm leaving, because he handled the situation far and away the worst of everyone involved, as I detailed in my post, and now he's trying to act like the bigger man when his "opposition", so speak, has left the building in disgust and a post against him was deleted.

 

[KatsaNovari]

@Thinslayer


I'm sorry Thinslayer, but I have to take a step back again. I still agree with some of your points, and understand where you're coming from, but I still don't think some of which I or Boomrocker was trying to explain got through to you. To be honest, I'm not sure if we're still arguing about the point of effectiveness and coolness, refusal to use armor, or what.


@Zerohex


You may post what you want. You two can try to resolve it yourselves, but in the end I may have to take a public vote on what should be done... As much as I'm reluctant to do so, for many reasons.

 

[Thinslayer]

@KatsaNovari


Is is accurate to say that @Boomrocker wants me to make my character more believable?


 
@Zerohex


That much, at least, I can understand. My angry reaction to Boomrocker's comment was what sparked this downward spiral. My irritation with him has been simmering for some time, but it was that comment that laid the last straw.

 

[KatsaNovari]

@Thinslayer


Maybe, that's how I understood it. But also that you were in the wrong of this argument as well. Whether one of you is more right or more wrong than the other really doesn't matter to me, but Boomrocker provided a long and detailed post on why what he said shouldn't have been taken offensive. At this point, I, personally, would of just apologized for misunderstanding him and move on. I still think he should of acknowledged where his words came off as insulting, even though he didn't mean them to be, but this is no better in all honesty.

 

[Thinslayer]

Boomrocker's post explaining why I shouldn't be offended felt even more insulting. The way he wrote it, he made it sound like I was actively looking for a reason to be insulted. And then he went on to say why he could have been insulted by my being insulted. That kind of blame-shifting is utterly infuriating. I couldn't stand to read that post.

 

[KatsaNovari]

I understand that, really I do, but you're viewing his posts as intentional statements to insult you, when he's only being matter-of-fact. Which I admit, does seem rude most of the time, and honestly the only reason why I think I can look over that and think the person doesn't mean potential harm with their post is because I do it too, sometimes. That's why I think you're both misunderstanding each other. You're misunderstanding him and think he's insulting you. He's misunderstanding you and thinks you shouldn't feel insulted, because he knows that's not what he means by his posts and may not get that's how they come across sometimes. This is what happened with Yonsisic. I'm not saying that's what makes it right. But I am saying that Boomrocker was being polite and reasonable with his posts, instead of throwing insulted remarks and exaggerated statements to get a point across that would irk the reader only more. All I'm asking, now, is you also understand where he's coming from, and maybe some progress can be made.


Does this make sense?


Edit: Another quick clarification: I'm not saying you're throwing insults or exaggerations, either. You're also being reasonable, at least to me you are. With the exception of the point I was making above.

 

[Thinslayer]

It does make sense. In fact, I see myself in his posts. Boomrocker's *trying* to be polite and reasonable, and it's how he wants to be seen. But I've been in his shoes. I can see the arrogance in his posts as clearly as daylight, because I've written things exactly like he does. I can see the condescending way he wrote his responses. It's easy for him to sound reasonable when he's not on the defensive. When you read his posts, he sounds cool, level-headed, and logical. And he is, mostly, except when important points of irrationality are buried in walls of text. You can't respond to that kind of thing. I know that as well as he does, and I've pummeled people with logic in exactly the same way he does.


And chances are, he's trying very hard to be polite and reasonable. If he knew he sounded arrogant, he'd probably be mortified, just as I often am when I write like he does. He's not trying to be malicious. I recognize that. Because I'm like him.

 

[DrBones]

It does make sense. In fact, I see myself in his posts. Boomrocker's *trying* to be polite and reasonable, and it's how he wants to be seen. But I've been in his shoes. I can see the arrogance in his posts as clearly as daylight, because I've written things exactly like he does. I can see the condescending way he wrote his responses. It's easy for him to sound reasonable when he's not on the defensive. When you read his posts, he sounds cool, level-headed, and logical. And he is, mostly, except when important points of irrationality are buried in walls of text. You can't respond to that kind of thing. I know that as well as he does, and I've pummeled people with logic in exactly the same way he does.
And chances are, he's trying very hard to be polite and reasonable. If he knew he sounded arrogant, he'd probably be mortified, just as I often am when I write like he does. He's not trying to be malicious. I recognize that. Because I'm like him.

This really looks like you're projecting your thoughts onto someone who isn't even here. We don't know what @Boomrocker's intent was or what he thinks now, because he quit. This "he was only pretending to want to help me, it's just like what I've done before" stuff leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

 

[Thinslayer]

He's not pretending to want to help me. He really does want to help me. It's just that he sucks at doing so in a non-abrasive way.

 

[KatsaNovari]

@Thinslayer


So.... Are you acknowledging, then, that he had no intention of insulting you, despite how his words came across as?


Edit: Parden my grammar and spelling errors, it's late in the night and this has worn me out some.

 

[Thinslayer]

Exactly. I was wrong for reacting the way I did.

 

[Zerohex]

This is the post I made before:


Since Boomrocker has clearly expressed that he is leaving the game, and might not be replying anymore considering the effort he put in previous posts only for them to be completely ignored, I would like to step up to the plate. Apologies to Katsanovari, who has indeed been quite patient, moreso than many a GM on this very site, but I feel this needs to be said:


It stopped being a simple misunderstanding when Thinslayer threw a fit about something as simple as "I think you're trying to look cool", making a leap in logic so amazing it would've made a froghopper bug proud in the process and only detailing it several posts after the fact, actively denied things he had only just posted and refused to even acknowledge that he might have been wrong or not come across clearly at some point.


Looking at things with a "win and lose" perspective despite people actively trying to help clear iffy spots with his character that he himself had no real clue how to fix and hadn't even considered should need no particular explanation as to why it is detestable. But since he's looking at things like that, I can safely say that not acknowledging or even making a token effort to adress a single point Boomrocker made clearly and politely, to the point he detailed the logical thought process behind them, makes him the clear loser in this discussion.


Thinslayer, all this and that you have to rely on shifting the goalposts and acting offended to not actually reply to a well thought out and patiently written post speaks more about your maturity than anything anyone could ever say about you. And no one has actually attacked your desire for coolness that you so vehemently denied initially prior to backpedaling like a champ, it has been covered before. Repeatedly, despite your refusal to acknowledge it. Honestly, I feel the RP is diminished not because another player left but because the person who handled this situation the worst gets to stay.


This is what I have to add now:


"In order for you to be insulted, you have assumed that I possessed information that contradicted what you had written on the page. In order to glean an insult out of this observation of mine, you would have had to be figuratively putting words in my mouth. This is an inference I have made backed up by your many comments on my supposedly incorrect observation. Were I the type to be insulted on an internet forum, I would be grievously insulted by this". You are still actively doing this, and now it's even worse because this person is not even here to post back.


All he said to spark this argument was "you appear to think that looking good is more important than being effective in a battle". Appear, take note. And this derived from your own posts that you yourself wrote and which is what we had to go by because we cannot read minds over the internet. You shot down a good solution you yourself considered because "an armored dog looks ridiculous". This is fact. It's plain for all to see unless you go and edit your posts, this is you placing a premium on looks which you have now admitted to after a whole argument about how you were totally not doing this thing. I don't know if you see how this makes your statements rather hard to take seriously.


Now, on to the given reason why you felt insulted, which you provided several posts after you flew off the handle and threw a fit. It's a leap of logic. A massive one, as I said in that prior post before it was erased. This is a connection that was in no way, shape or form implied in Boomrocker's post and which you made yourself. Who presumes now? I acknowledge that you felt insulted and wanted an apology but this does not make you right at all, because rather than explain why you would find this harmless statement about appearences insulting, you demanded an apology while furiously denying your own posts and backpedaling on your own statements, sometimes in the very same post you were making them.


The whole arrogance and points of irrationality bit? Maybe if you hadn't opened this up by demanding an apology over a perceived slight without even taking the time to politely explain said slight or present your thought process that led to you being insulted until well after the fact he wouldn't have come across as arrogant to you. It seemed fine to me. If you'd posted nicely then maybe he'd come across as a douche but you didn't and he doesn't. You still trying to make this all about him somehow being terrible to you and putting yourself up in that same position in the past just makes you look even worse.


I'd like to apologize to Katsanovari for likely trying her patience with this, but I believe I'll be going the same way Boomrocker did, because I don't think I want to roleplay with Thinslayer anymore. But, for the record, Thinslayer if there's anything I've missed that you'd like me to cover or you'd like to continue discussing this I'd be happy to.

 

[Thinslayer]

@Zerohex


How can I mend fences with you guys?

 

[KatsaNovari]

For me, personally, I think the best start would be to send Boomrocker a PM stating an apology for the misinterpretation of his words, and asking if he could please return to the RP. He'll also be getting a PM from me of course, and we'll go from there.


If anyone disagrees and/or has a better idea, please let us know. =3

 

[Thinslayer]

Already ahead of you and on top of that. He's offline, though.


Also sent a PM to Zerohex.

 

[KatsaNovari]

Thank you, Thinslayer

 

[Zerohex]

The damage's pretty much done, you had a fit, handled a simple and rather harmless situation pretty badly and an active player's gone over it, no going back from that even if he returns, because then everything's going to be colored by this. Even when you apologize you try to shift the blame to the guy you're apologizing to, man.


"He's not pretending to want to help me. He really does want to help me. It's just that he sucks at doing so in a non-abrasive way."


Really, guy?


@KatsaNovari, you should in no way take this as being your fault or let it get you down. You were doing pretty well, your posts were looking towards advancing the game which is actually not as common as one would think and you handled this much better than many a GM that would've kicked out everyone for arguing or just handwaved everything away.


You listened to your playerbase rather than dismiss them offhand or prohibit them from expressing themselves, were diplomatic and a mediator and offered ideas on how to work around issues with a player's character. Sometimes players don't get along, it happens, but you shouldn't let it discourage you, because those traits I just listed are pretty damn positive in this medium and rarer than one would think.


Really my only complaint would be how long the game went between posts, the constant starting and stopping between them with dead periods of a few days at a time is pretty bad. Skipping people if they don't post within 24 hours and removing them from the game if it happens too many times works better to keep a consistent rhythm I feel. Best of luck in your future endeavors.

 

[Thinslayer]

@Zerohex


That wasn't meant to be an apology. That was my attempt to properly understand him. This whole conflict arose from misunderstanding; the only way to rectify it is to attempt to understand one another. I'm trying to understand Boomrocker. That demands being accurate about where everyone's fault lies. My handling of the situation was immature, like you said. I snapped at a harmless comment. Boomrocker's role in the problem was his constant negativity, which laid the foundation for my snap. I made it worse through my irrational responses.

 

[KatsaNovari]

@Zerohex


I understand, and hold no ill will against you for thinking so. Just to me, throwing out Thinslayer because of this mishap seems uncalled for when he's apologizing for what he did and trying to make amends. I believe everyone deserves a second chance, and just because we hit a bump in the RP doesn't mean we'll hit the same one a second time. So while I am truly sad to see you go, I can't have Thinslayer leave with a good conscious and when I believe he's doing right.


Thank you for those kind words, they truly mean a lot . I'll again say I understand your reasoning, and your point; everyone likes to RP differently after all. =3


Have fun with future RPs, and hopefully we'll hear from each other again soon. ^^

 

[TheJipan]

Having just read through the last ten or so pages of OCC, I feel a little guilty for not having been on last night, because I might have been able to clear up these awful misinterpretations. Pretty much the entire RP has been torn apart because of an argument over a wolf using a crossbow. Personally, I think this is a little ridiculous, but I can see why. I might be a little late in saying this, but I understand what's happened here. You don't have to read this post if you don't want to. I just wanted to voice my opinion, as late as I may be in giving it.


Several RPers here agreed that having a relatively normal wolf use a crossbow was nonsensical, which I have to say I agree with, and you all tried to discuss alternatives and ways to make that choice work. The most favoured explanation was to use magic, which Thinslayer clearly expressed that he didn't want to do, because he doesn't want magic in his character. Given this is a fantasy universe where essentially everything is related to magic, I can understand why Thinslayer would want to not use it too, but I have to say the character would be different enough without the lack of magic. I'm not trying to force that onto anyone, I'm just making an observation on what the intention of not having the wolf use magic was and allowing for that in my compromise. The most popular alternative was to have the wolf use armour instead, which Thinslayer was opposed to, not because he thought the idea was less rational, but because that;s not what he wanted his character to be like. For whatever reason, this was interpreted as Thinslayer favouring how his character looked over how functional their design was. This was seen as a problem for two reasons, the first being that the majority of people in the argument thought that this was illogical, and the second that many of them thought that having the wolf use a crossbow would look more ridiculous than having it wear armour. Thinslayer disagreed with this, however, because he thought that having the wolf use a crossbow would be 'cool'. Given that this was entirely his opinion, which isn't something you can effectively debate, it shouldn't have really gone much further than that. Of course, it did end up going further to the point where Thinslayer was willing to put armour on his character. However, due to some poor manners from some, and poor reactions from others, the argument ended up falling into the gutter, and started rolling around in it. Despite Katsa's best efforts, the debate could not be pulled out of the gutter and one of the RPers left. As far as I can read it, that's what happened.


Now, my opinion, late as it may be coming, on this matter, is that if Thinslayer wants his wolf to have a crossbow without involving magic, then that's fine, as long as it can be rationalised. Sure, this may not be the real world as we know it, but in order to interpret and react to events within it, it needs to be rational, in order to create a boundary to what is acceptable within the world of the roleplay. Thinslayer is entitled to his opinion, just like anyone else, but when that opinion is being put into practise, especially when it isn't rationalised by the established rules of the world, then it needs to be rationalised, to some extent, in order for the other RPers to be able to logically interpret and react to it, like every other fantastical ting in this universe. As one of the other RPers said, a wolf using a crossbow isn't a 'normal' thing, therefore it must be explained. As for what the explanation is, I couldn't say without extensive research into the topic. I've noticed that some of the other RPers in the argument said that a crossbow wouldn't be very effective, and presented an argument as to why a wolf wouldn't need one. As I said before, the wolf using a crossbow is Thinslayer's 'opinion', because he wants the wolf to use a crossbow. Perhaps it could be a personal choice in the behalf of the wolf? If it is, that would add some more depth to their character. Perhaps the crossbow was a gift from an old mentor or friend? With that out of the way, all it's missing is an explanation as to how a wolf could logically wield it. The two most reasonable explanations I found here was to further anthropomorphise the wolf so he could wield the crossbow like a human would, or to have the crossbow work through magic. This is the direction I think the argument should have taken.


And, now that I have said that, you can completely ignore it. The debate is, as far as I know, closed. I just wanted to voice my opinion after spending so long looking through the many pages of debate and squabbling that went on here.