Other Freedom of Speech and So Called “Hate Speech”

[Pine]

They can call themselves anti-fascists but if they use threats and violence to prevent people they deem harmful from speaking then they are the real fascists.

i think you may be confusing fascism with violent direct action. violent direct action is a tactic used by fascists, but by no means does it only belong to fascists. afaik the mission statement of antifa is only about combating [certain] hate groups. however their goals actually play out is an entirely different story.

 

[Oneirois]

Milo wasn't disinvited from venues and removed from platforms for being gay. He was kicked out for being an asshole.
Kicking someone out because they are an unapologetic asshole who makes life miserable for other people is not illegal.

No one ever said it was illegal, and he was not kicked off stage by staff most of the time but bye thugs at the Depaul Debacle, but the administration did nothing.

 

[Elephantom]

That was probably the worst two sentences I've ever had the displease of reading. I like people like you. 15 minutes ago someone else point was dumb because Milo isn't like the gays 'He's not oppressed," and then when someone brings up well he is gay suddenly it "Doesn't matter." A phenomenon I like to call a "Stupid Liberal Logic Shift." And obviously people don't hate him as much as you think, his book has 4.9/5 stars on Amazon from over 2,000 reviews.

That's the 'True Scotsman' fallacy, sport, if you hadn't noticed.

And the media doesn't seem to agree with Milo's popularity. They're like sharks. Just waiting for him to slip up, which he just happened to do. Liberacion, liberty.

The implosion of Milo Yiannopoulos only took four days

The rise and fall of Milo Yiannopoulos – how a shallow actor played the bad guy for money

How the Alt-Right Reacted to Milo's Downfall

 

[Shotgunpenguin]

i think you may be confusing fascism with violent direct action. violent direct action is a tactic used by fascists, but by no means does it only belong to fascists. afaik the mission statement of antifa is only about combating [certain] hate groups. however their goals actually play out is an entirely different story.

After looking it up you are right about the direct action, but my point still remains. Antifa acts violently against those they deem harmful, want to restrict their way of speech and act like everyone who doesn't support them are the badguys.

 

[Elizabeth Cooper]

No one ever said it was illegal, and he was not kicked off stage by staff most of the time but bye thugs at the Depaul Debacle, but the administration did nothing.

Okay, so what is your point then?

The DePaul administration is not in charge of dealing with protestors getting violent. That is the police's job. That they gave Milo a platform as all was pure generosity on their part. This is not a "speech" issue

Many universities refuse to give Milo a platform. This is also not a "speech" issue. Milo can say what he likes, but no one is obligated to give him a platform.

You seem to have wandered completely off of your own topic.

 

[Peacemaker .45]

The snopes article actually says the opposite, that the Alt-Right are the instigators of most of the violence, and the Antifa are merely reactive.

AntiFa is FAR from reactors. They mindlessly attack Trump supporters, or even people who aren’t Trump supporters, amassing in giant “black blocks,” as they are called, and go around causing property damage and assaults. Look at Trump’s inauguration. They went around trashing DC, assault people. Look at “free speech” rallies, mainly the Berekly one in April. They went around with fireworks, bottles, bricks, whatever they could, throwing it at the other side, calling anyone there “nazi’s“ and “fascists,” when most people there weren’t. What’s more, some people there were Leftists in support of freedom of speech but were called those things and assaulted. The infamous “bike lock guy” came from this. This is a standard of AntiFa to attack anyone not on their side and destroy property. The only reason the Right started to suit up in the first place was because of all the assaults they faced for merely wearing a MAGA hat. We also know Snopes is a left leaning website I wouldn’t use them necessarily.

AntiFa is far more violent than the Alt-Right has been. The only reason they became more militant was because of AntiFa’s violence. And yes, their fascist tactics.

The NJ Department of Homeland Security listed them as a domestic terrorist group for their actions.

The FBI was also keeping track of them as well.

 

[Oneirois]

That isn't criticism.

Definition: the expression of disapproval of someone or something based on perceived faults or mistakes.

Saying "just use google" pointing out a mistake in my books.

And while I won't be able to respond to all points, this is an internet debate at 10:30pm, I believe I have covered a lot of points. And you have also squabbled over technicalities so I wouldn't take the moral high ground if I were you.

 

[Elephantom]

I’m a conservative, and I will admit he isn’t my favorite. He is a provocateur. While sometimes I find some of his stuff funny, I wouldn’t necessarily hold him up as a person I would say is a good leader, or example, of the conservative movement. Probably, while he isn’t a conservative necessarily, I think Jordan B Peterson is one of the best people we have on our side.

Precisely. Milo Yiannopoulos is the fuel (well, some of it) that feeds liberal conflicts against conservatives. That man ain't helping anybody (he's quite literally a joke, but some leftists don't tend to understand that).

 

[Oneirois]

The DePaul administration is not in charge of dealing with protestors getting violent. That is the police's job. That they gave Milo a platform as all was pure generosity on their part. This is not a "speech" issue

The university staff refused to let the security stop the thugs from interrupting Milo's event. The security was payed for by the students who had organized the event.

 

[Elephantom]

After looking it up you are right about the direct action, but my point still remains. Antifa acts violently against those they deem harmful, want to restrict their way of speech and act like everyone who doesn't support them are the badguys.

They're wolves in sheep's clothing. And the disguise ain't even good — just one step away from being some wack authoritarian-gamut club.

 

[Elizabeth Cooper]

After looking it up you are right about the direct action, but my point still remains. Antifa acts violently against those they deem harmful, want to restrict their way of speech and act like everyone who doesn't support them are the badguys.

So, just like most human beings?

Everyone thinks that they are the good guys and the people who disagree are the bad guys.

AntiFa is far more violent than the Alt-Right has been.

Still waiting for the numbers on this. A claim of this sort kinda needs numbers.

And while I won't be able to respond to all points, this is an internet debate at 10:30pm, I believe I have covered a lot of points. And you have also squabbled over technicalities so I wouldn't take the moral high ground if I were you.

I have made substative points. where are yours? You can't even stick to the basic topic.

Case in point:

The university staff refused to let the security stop the thugs from interrupting Milo's event. The security was payed for by the students who had organized the event.

What does this have to do with "speech"?

As someone who has worked security before, I would point out that most security guards are not trained for riot control, and it would be rather irresponsible to order them try to break up mob violence without being trained for riot control. This isn't some proof of malice, and even if it was....

What does this have to do with "speech"?

 

[Elephantom]

The university staff refused to let the security stop the thugs from interrupting Milo's event. The security was payed for by the students who had organized the event.

Well, it's Milo's fault. He said shit he shouldn't have said, offended the wrong kind of people, and he had to face the music for it.

 

[Oneirois]

Still waiting for the numbers on this. A claim of this sort kinda needs numbers

Where are your numbers? Do you think that for some reason you just win by default even though both of us have no numbers?

What does this have to do with "speech"?

You made a false claim and I refuted it. It is natural for a debate to go astray from the origianl topic in the interest of truth.

 

[Peacemaker .45]

Still waiting for the numbers on this. A claim of this sort kinda needs numbers.

Make this easier on me.

What specific numbers do you want? I’m assuming the NJ Department of Homeland Security link and the FBI/Homeland Security article warning about them is not enough for you?

I do want to make it clear that there is a US and European AntiFa, and the European is far worse than the American one.

 

[Oneirois]

Well, it's Milo's fault. He said shit he shouldn't have said, offended the wrong kind of people, and he had to face the music for it.

No, he really didn't. The people who actually committed a crime should face punishment unlike Milo.

 

[Elizabeth Cooper]

Make this easier on me.

What specific numbers do you want? I’m assuming the NJ Department of Homeland Security link and the FBI/Homeland Security article warning about them is not enough for you?

I do want to make it clear that there is a US and European AntiFa, and the European is far worse than the American one.

Look, for me to accept the claim that A > B kinda requires that I have a value for A and B so that I can see that A is in fact actually larger than B.

You know, like say Antifa caused 400 violent incidents and Nazis only caused 300 in 2017.

That sort of numbers.

No, he really didn't. The people who actually committed a crime should face punishment unlike Milo.

I wasn't aware that Milo was facing any punishment.

He is facing consequences, yes, but that's not the same thing.


And to remind everyone:

Even if "Freedom of Speech" actually meant "you can say whatever you want", (which it, by the way, doesn't) ...

there's nothing in there about being protected from the consequences of what you say.

 

[Pine]

Antifa acts violently against those they deem harmful, want to restrict their way of speech and act like everyone who doesn't support them are the badguys.

the idea is along the lines of the paradox of tolerating intolerance (i.e. the intolerant ideology of the alt-right) and that debating will never work + something something police having a monopoly on violence. so my point also still remains that idk what tf to think about them because yeah tbh im not sure if debating the alt-right alone will be sufficient to what i would say is, yes, absolutely WAY more dangerous ideologies than that of antifa, but also i wonder if there's another option to approaching the issue at hand aside from violent direct action. i'm very undecided on this.

anyway ive already commented on some of the immaturity on the left and that antifa is very likely different in ideology v. practice but nevertheless white supremacists/neo-nazis have some of the worst modern ideologies (which seem to be gaining popularity for various reasons) so i dont think i really have any more to contribute to this thread fingerguns deuces guys try not to encroach in "negative environment" territory and stress out staff

 

[Oneirois]

I wasn't aware that Milo was facing any punishment.

Perhaps I phrased that strangely, a better phrasing would be; The thugs who assaulted Milo on stage should be persecuted and your claim is unbased that Milo should "face the music."

 

[Tabby]

I will never not be amused by the doublethink of those who are happy to shit on a business for not selling cakes to a group they dislike (and demand they be forced to do so) or for having right leaning views (y'all ever actually read that google engineer dude's thing or just see the headlines talking about how horrible it was and demand he be fired?), but equally happy to defend the right of businesses to associate with whoever they like when they actively silence, ban, fire, or physically remove groups that they dislike - because it's only filthy right-wing nazi fascist bigots and they aren't really people anyways lol.

Makes this whole conversation a waste of time, honestly.

I'm lightly left leaning overall (leaning pretty left socially and economically on most aspects, usually vote democrat if possible, but fairly right on guns and some other rights - and don't give me that shit about democrats not wanting to take your guns, it's ALWAYS you fucks pushing it, even this year my state is trying again to soft ban them all AGAIN) but I've gotten accused of "alt-right" or nazi tendencies almost as many times as I've been excoriated for 'betraying the sisterhood' or 'internalized misogyny' or being 'not a real feminist' and other blatantly sexist accusations that remove all agency from me as a human being because I don't agree with all aspects of a given belief system. Modern American leftism is rapidly becoming a cancer of society and the absolute authoritarian beliefs spouted by some of the idiots in this very topic is just another stellar example of that.

Do I like Milo? No, I think he's an asshole. Do I like Trump? No, it's absolutely fucking disgusting how desperate the media is to try to make everything he does look bad, even the neutral and good, but he's still a dumbass and I don't like a lot of his views. Do I like the KKK? Hell the fuck no lmao. Do I think that Trump supporters deserve to be beaten for their beliefs? Also no. "Punch a nazi" is a catchy slogan but hides the authoritarian, heavily brownshirt-flavored violence that is rapidly becoming acceptable - as long as it's to those worthless subhumans on the right anyways. All for the greater good!

 

[Elizabeth Cooper]

Perhaps I phrased that strangely, a better phrasing would be; The thugs who assaulted Milo on stage should be persecuted and your claim is unbased that Milo should "face the music."

No one said that people who commit assault shouldn't be prosecuted, AFAICT.

For that matter, no one called for Milo to be actively subject to punishment. All that was said is that his actions have had consequences. And that he doesn't have a "right" to avoid the consequences of his speech.

 

[Oneirois]

Overall what I've drawn from this is that a lot of people do not think that people like Milo or the Neo-Nazis should have free speech. I personally believe that everyone no matter your political views, right, left, fascist or communist should be given the right to free speech. For me the freedom of speech is as integral as the right to live and it will be a truly sad day when it is taken away.

Perhaps I may be bias, as someone who is a staunch believer in the first and second amendment, but I think in order for democracy to function we need free speech for everyone even if it is hate speech.

 

[Elizabeth Cooper]

Overall what I've drawn from this is that a lot of people do not think that people like Milo or the Neo-Nazis should have free speech. I personally believe that everyone no matter your political views, right, left, fascist or communist should be given the right to free speech. For me the freedom of speech is as integral as the right to live and it will be a truly sad day when it is taken away.

Perhaps I may be bias, as someone who is a staunch believer in the first and second amendment, but I think in order for democracy to function we need free speech for everyone even if it is hate speech.

What this post demonstrates is that you don't understand what Free Speech *is*.

Look, I know i maybe rubbed you the wrong way. So fine, don't listen to me.

Listen to this guy.

No one has denied Milo his right of free speech at any point. No one has discriminated against him for his race/sex/religion either. At least within the context of the incidents thus far discussed.

People did apparently try to physically attack him, which is bad, but not a speech issue.

 

[Oneirois]

I'm too tired to continue this debate but as a farewell gift I will give you my source for what free speech is.

Constitution of United States of America 1789

Amendment I: Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

Maybe a bit more reliable than "xkcd."

 

[Elizabeth Cooper]

I'm too tired to continue this debate but as a farewell gift I will give you my source for what free speech is.

Constitution of United States of America 1789

Amendment I: Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

Maybe a but more reliable than "xkcd."

It doesn't disagree with XKCD. In fact, what you cited agrees with what I already said:

No one has denied Milo his right of free speech at any point. At least within the context of the incidents thus far discussed.

Congress has done nothing to Milo at all, AFAIK.

 

[Peacemaker .45]

You know, like say Antifa caused 400 violent incidents and Nazis only caused 300 in 2017.

That sort of numbers.

The only issue with this is that many of the assaults taken place during rallies are unreported. For example, during what the internet calls “The Battle of Berkeley,” or more formally known as the 2017 Berkeley Protests, the police were told to back off, and all out brawls ensued. And this, as with the far right militants, is where most crimes take place, but no arrests take place. Because of this, crime statistics are all but impossible to find. To see the violence on other sides, you need to watch videos of it. Tim Pool, the most center of the line person and a recognized independent journalist, was there, as was he with many of these violent riots. Helicopter footage shows AntiFa grabbing rightists, shoving them into the back of crowd, and hanging up on them and beating them down.

This isn’t as simple as doing an FBI crime search. You have to watch a lot of livestream coverage to see this stuff. Perhaps finding documented specific incidences of a single event that were reported of AntiFa abusing someone. AntiFa, most often, commits violence during events. And these numbers aren’t specific because most are never reported individually.