Viewpoint Ethics and the Internet: a discussion on role-playing

[Bill Nye The Octopi]

So, I'd like to start a deep conversation about this because I came across it as a topic. Someone was concerned they were being doxed, and I want to raise awareness of a growing problem among the role-playing community.

It's true. It happens. I have had people come to me across my role-play experience, "warning" me of a member. Generally, when I see this behaviour, I'll swing it on the other person and be very distrustful of them. I don't even invest in reading it. It's just a natural, ethical response for me. It crosses a boundary for me, and to think there are people on the internet who do this with malicious intent is just morally terrifying, but I combat this with the mentality that privacy is a growing luxury these days. However, even to be comforted by this is wrong.

What could be a growing solution to this growing problem within our community? ( gossip) I sincerely do worry about this ending ethical role-playing in general. I see this all over the internet, and I've had people warn me about members on RPN, too. It's just very unsettling

*edited because people were confused by the wording.*

Although I'm going to be rather busy the next little bit, so I will not be responding but feel free to talk among yourselves and I hope the small edit makes my point more clear. Either way, have a great day folks.

 

[Cogwork]

In what way are they warning you about others players? And for what?

I'm just having some trouble seeing the harm of it.

 

[Daisie]

Online collaborative writing isn't going anywhere anytime soon, just as social media isn't going anywhere, or YouTube influencers, or any number of communities. Doxxing is, in reality, a very rare issue, especially to the layperson.

The solution to doxxing on an individual scale is to keep your private information private. If you don't want it to be seen by everyone online, don't post it to everyone online. For the average person, it will never become a concern. It's actually far more of a concern - and far more complicated to deal with - for people in any sort of position of power. On a wide scale, this means celebrities and politicians, but on a smaller scale, this means our site's moderators. And they still get by alright.

Are you famous? If not, then your privacy is yours to control. The importance of keeping your identifying details to yourself over the internet is nothing more than common sense.

Never give your address to someone unless you know them well. Don't give your passwords away. Don't give your SSN or credit card info away. Be careful when mentioning what region, country, timezones, or state you're in. Avoid using your legal name. Look up whether restaurants are local or not before posting about them. Use a VPN. Don't give them anything to dox, and chances are, you won't be doxxed.

 

[Daisie]

Oh, is this not about doxxing, but about people warning others about problematic behaviour?

In that case, I'm with Cogwork, I'm not sure I see the issue with it. Can maybe be a bit gossipy or cliquey in the wrong scenario, but otherwise a heads-up seems harmless or even helpful.

Edit: Granted, this is all under the assumption that it's all rule-following and respectful. It's against the rules to discuss moderator warnings and such on here, but that's its own situation.

 

[GrumpySwallow]

I've seen it plenty of times while RPing in MMOs like WoW where someone has the absolute gall to RP in a way someone else doesn't like, so rumors get spread about them being problematic in some way, shape, or form. I've seen people follow their victim to other MMOs to tell the RP community there to not interact with the person because of supposedly problematic behavior. It's even happened to me, once, where someone would declare to the RP community that I've been bullying people out of the game, and I didn't even know who those people were!

Because of this, I do my best to remain neutral. If someone tells me in private that another player is a problem, I'll thank them and keep an eye on things. Unless there is absolute proof of toxic behavior from a person, I'm going to give them the benefit of the doubt. Innocent until proven guilty; screenshots or it didn't happen.

The ironic thing is that I have been accused of promoting toxic behavior in RP communities because I take rumors with a grain of salt and give people a chance.

 

[Bill Nye The Octopi]

I've seen it plenty of times while RPing in MMOs like WoW where someone has the absolute gall to RP in a way someone else doesn't like, so rumors get spread about them being problematic in some way, shape, or form. I've seen people follow their victim to other MMOs to tell the RP community there to not interact with the person because of supposedly problematic behavior. It's even happened to me, once, where someone would declare to the RP community that I've been bullying people out of the game, and I didn't even know who those people were!

Because of this, I do my best to remain neutral. If someone tells me in private that another player is a problem, I'll thank them and keep an eye on things. Unless there is absolute proof of toxic behavior from a person, I'm going to give them the benefit of the doubt. Innocent until proven guilty; screenshots or it didn't happen.

The ironic thing is that I have been accused of promoting toxic behavior in RP communities because I take rumors with a grain of salt and give people a chance.

Exactly! That has happened to me as well. It's so wild! At least this builds thick skin Grumpy.

 

[Bill Nye The Octopi]

In what way are they warning you about others players? And for what?

I'm just having some trouble seeing the harm of it.

In what sense? Can you elaborate on why you feel that way?
What ethically makes you feel that is okay?

 

[nerdy tangents]

Because sometimes it’s helpful to know when a user is going to be a bigot or attempt to promote behavior you find morally repugnant.

Example years ago there was a user who made a whole thread defending IRL relationships between students and teachers. Which they just barely skated around the rules by specifying they meant “adults” but the content of the thread showed a troubling romanticization of power imbalance relationships in general.

Again nothing that rose to the level of something that could be reported but enough that I was immediately put off and blocked them.

I absolutely informed friends of mine who I knew had “student / teacher” relationships as a deal breaker for roleplays. Because if they don’t like to write fictionalized versions of the scenario I can’t imagine they would be cool writing with someone who romanticized the real life version.

I don’t see that as being morally reprehensible at all. It’s giving people a heads up that there is a user whose personal believes would upset them.

It’s not like I’m giving the users real name or location. Nor am I preventing them from finding partners who would be more to their liking. I’m just preventing my friends from walking into a land mine that would cause them distress.

 

[Cogwork]

What ethically makes you feel that is okay?

I'm going to assume that I'm correct in understanding that all they're doing is warning others about past problematic behavior (but I please correct me if I'm wrong).

I think that people should be allowed to make an informed decision about who they roleplay with and that requires that people reach out to others and give them a heads-up if they know there's something, for lack of a better word, wrong with their current roleplay partner.

 

[Bill Nye The Octopi]

I still don't understand how anyone could justify that in any case. I feel gossip is just a huge character flaw, and I suppose I'll never understand how it helps anyone in any sense of the word. It just proves to me that no one has any faith in anyone, and instead of building each other up, we are animals that tear people down.

It's just so weird to me. If someone is struggling and acting weird and being a really noisy squeaky wheel. I wouldn't isolate them or believe they don't have the ability to change or any of that. Although perhaps my brain thinks a bit differently. I really have a strong want and need to help others and even if they're being a piece of shit to me. I still want them to have a happy and stable life. I mean, isn't writing supposed to be about that?

I just still see it as a huge flaw of character and a huge detriment to anyone who does it. It's a form of bullying, and I find it very weird.

Although I won't downplay it too much becuase it's likely rooted in distrust of people in general.

 

[Cogwork]

I really have a strong want and need to help others and even if they're being a piece of shit to me. I still want them to have a happy and stable life

But isn't the person they're writing also entitled to a "happy and stable life"?

And for them, maybe that involves not being treated like a piece of shit by a writing partner.

That said, I think losing out on a couple of roleplays here and there isn't going to effect anyone's capacity of having a "happy and stable life".

 

[Bill Nye The Octopi]

But isn't the person they're writing also entitled to a "happy and stable life"?

And for them, maybe that involves not being treated like a piece of shit by a writing partner.

That said, I think losing out on a couple of roleplays here and there isn't going to effect anyone's capacity of having a "happy and stable life".

Why is this in the rules then?

• Do not engage in public call-outs: Accusing or publicly confronting users about their behavior can lead to unnecessary drama and animosity. Allow the staff to address any concerns privately and professionally.
• also added or this :
• Avoid mini-modding: Mini-modding refers to users who frequently correct or criticize others for minor infractions or perceived rule-breaking. While it's fine to help others understand the site policies, it is essential to avoid overstepping your bounds as a regular user.

To be honest, private gossip does the exact same thing. If not worse.

 

[Cogwork]

To be honest, private gossip does the exact same thing. If not worse.

I disagree. If you do it publicly you're involving the entire forum, if you do privately you don't involve nearly as many people.

Avoid mini-modding: Mini-modding refers to users who frequently correct or criticize others for minor infractions or perceived rule-breaking. While it's fine to help others understand the site policies, it is essential to avoid overstepping your bounds as a regular user.

Don't see how that is relevant. We're not talking about someone correcting someone but warning others about past behavior.

 

[Bill Nye The Octopi]

I suppose we will have to respectfully disagree on this point. I still fail to see your viewpoint.
Although, have a good day.

 

[Daisie]

Do not engage in public call-outs:

Like Cogsworth said, the public part is pretty important in this. In action, this rule largely addresses people going on the forums or the status updates and making call outs identifiable enough to be recognized by the original user, as that will easily cause tension or even start a flame war.

Avoid mini-modding

Mini modding is more personal, and is more about direct confrontation, as far as I know. It's sort of its own form of vigilantism, and really doesn't have anything to do with people talking in private.

Granted I can see your point. I can see how it would be toxic to start gabbing about people and viciously ostracizing them behind their backs. Understand that I say all this as someone who HAS BEEN talked about before, very much in the negative way.

At the same time, I don't believe this behaviour to be BLACK-AND-WHITE bad. Like all things, it's on a complex spectrum of ethical right and wrong. And to me, it all comes down to the intention of the person providing the information.

Something along the lines of this, I don't find reprehensible:
"Hey, just to give you a heads up, I've been in a RP with this person before and they kept calling my trans character the wrong gender before storming off when I confronted them about it. I don't want you to have to deal with that."
It's gentle, doesn't demand you actually take any action, and is nothing more than an exchange of information for the sake of safety. It's not blatantly excluding anyone, it's just a warning that allows the recipient to take their own chances, but also allows them to be aware of potential problematic behaviour.

If it turns out that the RPer turns out to be totally fine and dandy, then all the better! But the actual act of warning, itself, can be unharmful.

 

[Bill Nye The Octopi]

Like Cogsworth said, the public part is pretty important in this. In action, this rule largely addresses people going on the forums or the status updates and making call outs identifiable enough to be recognized by the original user, as that will easily cause tension or even start a flame war.



Mini modding is more personal, and is more about direct confrontation, as far as I know. It's sort of its own form of vigilantism, and really doesn't have anything to do with people talking in private.

Granted I can see your point. I can see how it would be toxic to start gabbing about people and viciously ostracizing them behind their backs. Understand that I say all this as someone who HAS BEEN talked about before, very much in the negative way.

At the same time, I don't believe this behaviour to be BLACK-AND-WHITE bad. Like all things, it's on a complex spectrum of ethical right and wrong. And to me, it all comes down to the intention of the person providing the information.

Something along the lines of this, I don't find reprehensible:
"Hey, just to give you a heads up, I've been in a RP with this person before and they kept calling my trans character the wrong gender before storming off when I confronted them about it. I don't want you to have to deal with that."
It's gentle, doesn't demand you actually take any action, and is nothing more than an exchange of information for the sake of safety. It's not blatantly excluding anyone, it's just a warning that allows the recipient to take their own chances, but also allows them to be aware of potential problematic behaviour.

If it turns out that the RPer turns out to be totally fine and dandy, then all the better! But the actual act of warning, itself, can be unharmful.

Those are some good points there.

 

[Bill Nye The Octopi]

I suppose this is my firm opinion on this because I did have a very traumatizing experience with someone telling a lie about a family member.
It could have destroyed their life, their jobs, and their family. It all originated over role plays. I was roped into that mess for several decades over really petty things that happened when they were like sixteen. So, now I do not gossip at all. I don't have an interest in it, I don't have an interest in doing it, I don't have interest, period lmao
And maybe that's me and my experience, but because of my experiences, I don't think I can change my opinion on it.

I cut ties completely with that friend. Cold turkey. That in itself was traumatizing, too.
I choose my friends carefully now, and it's made me very distrusting of what others have to say.

I dunno just that's where my opinion is based on

It's okay if you have a difference in opinion. I just firmly have this one because of decades of time lost it just disappointed me every time

 

[Daisie]

Another thing that I'm kind of confused by...

What could be a growing solution to this growing problem within our community? How do you see it being resolved, or will this be the end of people writing together, period? When has the role-play knight gone too far? I sincerely do worry about this ending role-playing in general. I see this all over the internet, and I've had people warn me about members on RPN, too. It's just very unsettling.

I don't see this being a "growing problem", nor one that could "end role-playing in general"?
I obviously can't speak for your personal experiences, but if I've ever been warned about another user, I certainly don't remember it. I've been on RpN for 8 years and it's happened scarcely enough that I'm not be able to recall any one, isolated instance of it happening. Even if you get pretty unlucky, say... you're given warnings about users a handful of times in a year, that is still such a drastically small percentage of actual RPers being affected that I don't see how it could ever become a catastrophic failure of the entire RP community as a whole.

Especially when you compare it to far more prevalent issues, such as ghosting, which is probably something I'd say affects at least 50% of roleplays. As in, it happens to people multiple times in a given month.

 

[Bill Nye The Octopi]

It's okay, Daisie. We can agree or disagree. I do see it as a huge problem. A character flaw which will eventually come to bite people in the butt later. Nothing ever good came from gossiping to others. It's like a broken telephone; something always gets missed, and someone always gets hurt. My morals and ethics will never support gossip as a positive means to a society.

Even if it's seen as a good conscience move, it just is all wrong to me, and I'll always be very distrusting of people who are comfortable doing it. It's okay to say something over the internet about a stranger, but no one can muster up the courage to say anything to anyone's face. And I don't mean in a conflicting way, just an honest one.


Of course, that point doesn't make sense, Daisie. You disagree that it's morally wrong, so the point doesn't hit you.

It's morally degrading to one's self to fall to that low. Is the point I'm trying to make. It's just weird to me to see it as a positive. The knight syndrome I was just grabbing from slang but it's also a prevalent problem in society at large for several different reasons.

Gossip never serves a purpose other than a pat on the back from your ego from "rescuing" someone. That just sincerely really weirds me.

 

[Jannah]

I've seen it plenty of times while RPing in MMOs like WoW where someone has the absolute gall to RP in a way someone else doesn't like, so rumors get spread about them being problematic in some way, shape, or form. I've seen people follow their victim to other MMOs to tell the RP community there to not interact with the person because of supposedly problematic behavior. It's even happened to me, once, where someone would declare to the RP community that I've been bullying people out of the game, and I didn't even know who those people were!

Because of this, I do my best to remain neutral. If someone tells me in private that another player is a problem, I'll thank them and keep an eye on things. Unless there is absolute proof of toxic behavior from a person, I'm going to give them the benefit of the doubt. Innocent until proven guilty; screenshots or it didn't happen.

The ironic thing is that I have been accused of promoting toxic behavior in RP communities because I take rumors with a grain of salt and give people a chance.

Literally this. I'm not a fan of jumping on the bandwagon of "cancelling" people who others might deem problematic, especially with accusations as bold as being a doxxer. I'd need to see physical proof of it myself.

 

[Bill Nye The Octopi]

Literally this. I'm not a fan of jumping on the bandwagon of "cancelling" people who others might deem problematic, especially with accusations as bold as being a doxxer. I'd need to see physical proof of it myself.

Very much the same.

Oh, I think you misunderstand. The person was worried about being doxxed in the topic I was just reading it.
I was relating that to the morals and ethics of the internet and roleplay. I can admit my grammar is sometimes rough lol

However, we think very much the same way.

 

[nerdy tangents]

So I think you're making a lot of assumptions out of fear.

You were bullied in the past and so you have convinced yourself that bullying is a widespread problem on this site/with roleplaying in general.

It's really not. I joined this site in 2015. I have had three different accounts in that time.

In that time I have only ever been bullied twice in the way you're afraid of. Two times in nearly ten years.

Both times the only thing that happened is I got a warning from the staff.

I wasn't kicked off the site. I didn't lose any sort of posting privileges.

I just got a message saying "Hey you broke Rule #. Please read the rule carefully to prevent further infractions."

That's literally all that happened.


Hopefully this helps you feel better about this whole "gossip" thing. Rather than worrying about morality or whatnot just take comfort in the idea that you aren't going to be harassed the way you fear nor is anyone else.

Cuz that is categorically not a thing on this site. Take it from someone who has been on here for a very long time. It doesn't happen. You don't have to worry.

 

[Chained Echoes]

A bit confused by the question? I'll answer how I think I read it.

Unless I am really close to a partner, example, I have close roleplay partners that I've met in real life and have become friends for years, I take whatever another person is saying about someone with a grain of salt. Especially if I don't know either one of them. I get wary of people that come to me right off the bat complaining about others or warning me. Again, I don't know you. I understand sometimes there are instances where a bit of a warning can be good, keeping someone out of harm's way, etc, but when it comes to roleplay there seems to be a level of drama at least my experiences so I don't entertain it.

I don't think it will be the end of roleplay. People are going to write with each other regardless. I also think there's not really a resolution to this. You have too many people, different frames of mind, etc. People are going to do messed up things.

 

[Bill Nye The Octopi]

So I think you're making a lot of assumptions out of fear.

You were bullied in the past and so you have convinced yourself that bullying is a widespread problem on this site/with roleplaying in general.

It's really not. I joined this site in 2015. I have had three different accounts in that time.

In that time I have only ever been bullied twice in the way you're afraid of. Two times in nearly ten years.

Both times the only thing that happened is I got a warning from the staff.

I wasn't kicked off the site. I didn't lose any sort of posting privileges.

I just got a message saying "Hey you broke Rule #. Please read the rule carefully to prevent further infractions."

That's literally all that happened.


Hopefully this helps you feel better about this whole "gossip" thing. Rather than worrying about morality or whatnot just take comfort in the idea that you aren't going to be harassed the way you fear nor is anyone else.

Cuz that is categorically not a thing on this site. Take it from someone who has been on here for a very long time. It doesn't happen. You don't have to worry.

I'll be completely honest. I find that extremely manipulative and unsettling. It does not make me feel better; people are more interested in convincing me I'm incorrect to feel this way, and that's all around truly unsettling. My post has very little to do with RPN or being hysterical or scared. It's that I know this is happening on a plethora of sites, including RPN, where people are comfortable being maliciously unkind by spreading gossip about others. I truly thought I was strongly presenting that point.

If not, there it is. I'm not fearful of anything.

I'm unsettled that people don't see it as corroding the role-playing community, and I just can't be convinced differently.

And hearing you've been warned by staff before makes me equally unsettled by your response.

 

[Bill Nye The Octopi]

A bit confused by the question? I'll answer how I think I read it.

Unless I am really close to a partner, example, I have close roleplay partners that I've met in real life and have become friends for years, I take whatever another person is saying about someone with a grain of salt. Especially if I don't know either one of them. I get wary of people that come to me right off the bat complaining about others or warning me. Again, I don't know you. I understand sometimes there are instances where a bit of a warning can be good, keeping someone out of harm's way, etc, but when it comes to roleplay there seems to be a level of drama at least my experiences so I don't entertain it.

I don't think it will be the end of roleplay. People are going to write with each other regardless. I also think there's not really a resolution to this. You have too many people, different frames of mind, etc. People are going to do messed up things.

This is a pretty realistic view of it. It's a natural response to want to help others, and if it's someone you're very close with, I can see that.

I do think you are right. It won't be the end of role-playing, and I may have been slightly dramatic in my writing. I was thinking "newscaster vibe" but I'm not good at it, obviously.