Other Undertale Fandom - A serious discussion/Rant on 'Chara' in AUs.

[ZeiruliousMakavar]

TRIGGER WARNING: Can't believe I have to put this here, but I'll be referring to both Frisk and Chara as "She" in this thread, and any thread in which I mention either of them. Yes, I understand that both Chara and Frisk are officially 'genderless' but, that still doesn't change that Toby Fox went on record stating that though neither of them have assigned genders, that it's because he left it solely up to THE PLAYER. I will respect you if you feel one, or both of them should be male. I will also respect you if you feel that I should using gender neutral pronouns when referring to them. Please respect me for seeing them as females. That is my head-cannon for them, so get the bloody hell over it.

So, I've been floating around Tumblr, Deviant Art, and other places looking at Undertale AUs for a few months now, mostly because I'm a huge nerd and Undertale is one of the few games I'll play countless times, even after 100% the game, but partially to 'prepare' the Undertale AU I've been working on the past couple of weeks. Specifically to know what has/hasn't been done before. Why? Because this stuff needs to be unique in some way or another...
With that out of the way, on to the actual thing I want to discuss here. And that's "Chara", specifically 'redeemed' Chara. Why? Well, out of the dozens of AUs I've looked at over the months, I've notice that there are three main 'factions' for dealing with Chara. The first one, is that she's some truly evil mastermind, who planned on killing everyone and everything from the very beginning. That is, from when she first fell into the Underground, and met the Dreemurr family.

The second two, are the main reason for this discussion. That is, there's two sides of this proverbial 'redemption' coin. The first one, which I personally fall under after much introspection on how I feel Chara would behave if a real person. And that is, that she still can't forgive herself for all that she's done, despite everyone around her already doing so. (Even Sans...) This makes sense even with the mostly fanon accepted back story that the two have together, more on that later though. The second side, is that some how Chara has PTSD.

Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but last I checked a person gets PTSD after an extremely traumatic experience. Right? Now, I'm not saying that Chara can't have PTSD, she entirely can if the story fits correctly. But with the fanonically accepted backstory she USUALLY has with Sans, and even Frisk half the time, it just doesn't make sense for her to have PTSD. Especcially because the usual plot line for these AUs is that Frisk comes in at some crucial moment, and mercies her, some how saving her soul.

Is that a Traumatic Experience that would warrant PTSD? Usually? No. PTSD is caused from when a soldier goes into battle, or when a person is in a car accident, or when they're nearly shot to death. Those can, and usually do, result in PTSD. What makes more sense in these scenarios, that is with out going even further back into the time line as to WHY Chara's gone genocidal, is for her to be guilt-ridden. Let me get this straight, PTSD does not equal Guilt. Just as Guilt is not a sign of PTSD. They do not correlate what so ever. They're two different things. Can a person have PTSD because of guilt? Oh yes, it is very possible. Under specific circumstances. Would Chara have PTSD after going on a genocidal rage that last for who knows how long, and for who knows how many time loops? No.

Why? Because that's not how PTSD works. We see it all the time in redeemed villains/anti-heroes/dark-heroes. They do some dark and evil thing in their past before they're "Reformed" and because of this, they go from badass evil bad guy, to dark and broody dark hero, or a "I'm not the hero." anti-hero kind of person. Why? Because it's natural for a person to feel guilt over doing 'evil' things. Did you kill this guy you called your friend? Yes. Do you regret it and feel guilty because of that? Yes. Then congratulations, you're a normal bloody person. If Chara was a 'normal' person, who was forced into a genocidal maniac killing spree (for some reason or another...) then at most, she'd feel incredibly guilty, maybe even irredeemably so. Would they have PTSD? No. Again, that's not how it works. Then why is it, that so many AU creators give her PTSD?

My opinion on the matter? Sympathy. It's solely to have the audience feel sympathetic towards her. Now, as I stated before, it's entirely possible for Chara TO have PTSD, if the circumstances allowed it. Hell, if it would make sense in the story FOR her to have PTSD, I'd be more worried if she didn't. But yes, giving a character PTSD seems to be a common "LOOK FEEL SYMPATHETIC FOR THIS CHARACTER!!!" plot point that a lot of young/amateur writers use. Even if it doesn't make sense for a character to have PTSD. Why? Because it's easy. It's the same reason why self-inserts are classified as 'mary sues/gary stus' so quickly. Because it's easy for younger, less experienced writers to write such characters into the story. Just as it's easier to give characters negative traits, like PTSD or a depressing backstory, to make us the readers feel sympathetic for them. Does it work? Usually, if done correctly.

In fact, in the hands of an experienced writer, a 'world builder' so to speak, even the most hate-able characters can become a person's favorite characters. Take Artemis Fowl, from the... Artemis Fowl books. His main backstory is that he's the pampered, genius, and slightly snobby, only son of two very rich people. One of which is the head of a criminal organization that helped them become very rich. That's his backstory in the first book, when he's introduced. Yes, it also says his father is missing, and his mom is manic-depressive (Well, it doesn't say that part about her... but it does pretty much say it.) But lets think of it like this. An unexperienced writer would have stopped there. They'd have given us no more information on Artemis. We'd have no reason to like him. Yet, he's one of the most favoured characters in the series... Why? Because that's not ALL that he is. He has motivations that go beyond what his backstory is. He's also pushed forward BY his backstory.

In most of the AUs I've seen, that give Chara PTSD, it's out of nowhere. One moment she's a slightly mopey, almost 'to-cool-for-school'-esque person, the next she's suddenly filled with PTSD because someone mentioned Asriel or her past. Why? They build her up as this "My past is behind me" confident person, who's already stepping forward to truly redeem herself, the next she's suddenly weak, frail, and cowering in a corner? No yes, PTSD can effect even 'macho men' but it still leaves permanent mental scars on them. They may still seem like 'macho men' but they're constantly showing signs they aren't anymore. And how Chara is usually portrayed to behave as in these AUs, she wouldn't have PTSD.

At least, to me it doesn't make sense.
What are your guys/gals thoughts on the matter? What sort of justification would you give for Chara having PTSD? Or to be guilt-ridden? Or are you of the group that sees Chara as a sociopathic killer, who only wants to kill?

 

[Windsock]

Chara's just a dumb kid's ghost able to still do stuff because of DETERMINATION.

She's just as over-emotional, witty, needy, easily amused, bored, and humgry for examples to follow as any child is. When you give them the power of DETERMINATION and a lot of murder, monkey see, monkey do.

 

[ZeiruliousMakavar]

Chara's just a dumb kid's ghost able to still do stuff because of DETERMINATION.

She's just as over-emotional, witty, needy, easily amused, bored, and humgry for examples to follow as any child is. When you give them the power of DETERMINATION and a lot of murder, monkey see, monkey do.

Well, yes that is what is cannon to the games. But note I was specifically talking about fan-made AUs, and fan opinion of her.

 

[Noivian]

There was a very good post I read on Tumblr that did a very in-depth analysis of Chara's character, without going into fan head-canons at all. From what I remembered, it used entirely canon clues to deduce that Chara was the narrator of the game, that Chara and Frisk inhabited the same body throughout the game, and that Chara is only "evil" if Frisk is the first to kill. It says that Chara isn't homicidal at all, nor do they have PTSD or are overridden with guilt. It simply states that Chara only saw violence as an answer, and that after fusing and dying with Asriel she started to consider other options. If Frisk kills, even once, Chara will forever become a pessimist, feeling that Asriel betrayed her and that she was right from the start. If Frisk refuses to kill, Chara will admit that Asriel was right, remain an optimist, and forgive Asriel for restraining her when they were alive.

I'll see if I can find the link to it.

 

[Noivian]

Here ya go

It's a long read but it's very insightful on the "Chara" problem. It's also the headcanon I use for Chara.

 

[ZeiruliousMakavar]

There was a very good post I read on Tumblr that did a very in-depth analysis of Chara's character, without going into fan head-canons at all. From what I remembered, it used entirely canon clues to deduce that Chara was the narrator of the game, that Chara and Frisk inhabited the same body throughout the game, and that Chara is only "evil" if Frisk is the first to kill. It says that Chara isn't homicidal at all, nor do they have PTSD or are overridden with guilt. It simply states that Chara only saw violence as an answer, and that after fusing and dying with Asriel she started to consider other options. If Frisk kills, even once, Chara will forever become a pessimist, feeling that Asriel betrayed her and that she was right from the start. If Frisk refuses to kill, Chara will admit that Asriel was right, remain an optimist, and forgive Asriel for restraining her when they were alive.

I'll see if I can find the link to it.

Again... I think you're missing the point of this thread. It's not here to discuss what Chara is canonically in the games, there's no way we can do that with out discussing things with Toby Fox. I'd love to sit here and debate all day about the many levels of mystery that reside with in Undertale, but that's not the point of this thread. As I said in the first post, this thread is for discussing of the Undertale fandom, and it's views on Chara. Not what is, or isn't canon.

 

[Sleek]

The thing is that as far as I know Frisk is a re-incarnation of Chara. Whatever you do reflects on Chara, at least in-game. Not Irredeemable, unless the player at the current time is irredeemable.
That's pretty much a TLR explanation of Chara, folks.

 

[Young_Egg]

I think Chara is someone who misinterpreted the world and viewed it negatively, they believe in what they believe in and good luck changing that. They aren't right to make assumptions but they aren't wrong to misinterpret the world. In AUs I would refer to ask frisk and company for my favourite Chara but everyone can interpret Chara differently and that's whats so good about undertale

 

[Ezira]

TRIGGER WARNING: Can't believe I have to put this here, but I'll be referring to both Frisk and Chara as "She" in this thread, and any thread in which I mention either of them. Yes, I understand that both Chara and Frisk are officially 'genderless' but, that still doesn't change that Toby Fox went on record stating that though neither of them have assigned genders, that it's because he left it solely up to THE PLAYER. I will respect you if you feel one, or both of them should be male. I will also respect you if you feel that I should using gender neutral pronouns when referring to them. Please respect me for seeing them as females. That is my head-cannon for them, so get the bloody hell over it.

So, I've been floating around Tumblr, Deviant Art, and other places looking at Undertale AUs for a few months now, mostly because I'm a huge nerd and Undertale is one of the few games I'll play countless times, even after 100% the game, but partially to 'prepare' the Undertale AU I've been working on the past couple of weeks. Specifically to know what has/hasn't been done before. Why? Because this stuff needs to be unique in some way or another...
With that out of the way, on to the actual thing I want to discuss here. And that's "Chara", specifically 'redeemed' Chara. Why? Well, out of the dozens of AUs I've looked at over the months, I've notice that there are three main 'factions' for dealing with Chara. The first one, is that she's some truly evil mastermind, who planned on killing everyone and everything from the very beginning. That is, from when she first fell into the Underground, and met the Dreemurr family.

The second two, are the main reason for this discussion. That is, there's two sides of this proverbial 'redemption' coin. The first one, which I personally fall under after much introspection on how I feel Chara would behave if a real person. And that is, that she still can't forgive herself for all that she's done, despite everyone around her already doing so. (Even Sans...) This makes sense even with the mostly fanon accepted back story that the two have together, more on that later though. The second side, is that some how Chara has PTSD.

Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but last I checked a person gets PTSD after an extremely traumatic experience. Right? Now, I'm not saying that Chara can't have PTSD, she entirely can if the story fits correctly. But with the fanonically accepted backstory she USUALLY has with Sans, and even Frisk half the time, it just doesn't make sense for her to have PTSD. Especcially because the usual plot line for these AUs is that Frisk comes in at some crucial moment, and mercies her, some how saving her soul.

Is that a Traumatic Experience that would warrant PTSD? Usually? No. PTSD is caused from when a soldier goes into battle, or when a person is in a car accident, or when they're nearly shot to death. Those can, and usually do, result in PTSD. What makes more sense in these scenarios, that is with out going even further back into the time line as to WHY Chara's gone genocidal, is for her to be guilt-ridden. Let me get this straight, PTSD does not equal Guilt. Just as Guilt is not a sign of PTSD. They do not correlate what so ever. They're two different things. Can a person have PTSD because of guilt? Oh yes, it is very possible. Under specific circumstances. Would Chara have PTSD after going on a genocidal rage that last for who knows how long, and for who knows how many time loops? No.

Why? Because that's not how PTSD works. We see it all the time in redeemed villains/anti-heroes/dark-heroes. They do some dark and evil thing in their past before they're "Reformed" and because of this, they go from badass evil bad guy, to dark and broody dark hero, or a "I'm not the hero." anti-hero kind of person. Why? Because it's natural for a person to feel guilt over doing 'evil' things. Did you kill this guy you called your friend? Yes. Do you regret it and feel guilty because of that? Yes. Then congratulations, you're a normal bloody person. If Chara was a 'normal' person, who was forced into a genocidal maniac killing spree (for some reason or another...) then at most, she'd feel incredibly guilty, maybe even irredeemably so. Would they have PTSD? No. Again, that's not how it works. Then why is it, that so many AU creators give her PTSD?

My opinion on the matter? Sympathy. It's solely to have the audience feel sympathetic towards her. Now, as I stated before, it's entirely possible for Chara TO have PTSD, if the circumstances allowed it. Hell, if it would make sense in the story FOR her to have PTSD, I'd be more worried if she didn't. But yes, giving a character PTSD seems to be a common "LOOK FEEL SYMPATHETIC FOR THIS CHARACTER!!!" plot point that a lot of young/amateur writers use. Even if it doesn't make sense for a character to have PTSD. Why? Because it's easy. It's the same reason why self-inserts are classified as 'mary sues/gary stus' so quickly. Because it's easy for younger, less experienced writers to write such characters into the story. Just as it's easier to give characters negative traits, like PTSD or a depressing backstory, to make us the readers feel sympathetic for them. Does it work? Usually, if done correctly.

In fact, in the hands of an experienced writer, a 'world builder' so to speak, even the most hate-able characters can become a person's favorite characters. Take Artemis Fowl, from the... Artemis Fowl books. His main backstory is that he's the pampered, genius, and slightly snobby, only son of two very rich people. One of which is the head of a criminal organization that helped them become very rich. That's his backstory in the first book, when he's introduced. Yes, it also says his father is missing, and his mom is manic-depressive (Well, it doesn't say that part about her... but it does pretty much say it.) But lets think of it like this. An unexperienced writer would have stopped there. They'd have given us no more information on Artemis. We'd have no reason to like him. Yet, he's one of the most favoured characters in the series... Why? Because that's not ALL that he is. He has motivations that go beyond what his backstory is. He's also pushed forward BY his backstory.

In most of the AUs I've seen, that give Chara PTSD, it's out of nowhere. One moment she's a slightly mopey, almost 'to-cool-for-school'-esque person, the next she's suddenly filled with PTSD because someone mentioned Asriel or her past. Why? They build her up as this "My past is behind me" confident person, who's already stepping forward to truly redeem herself, the next she's suddenly weak, frail, and cowering in a corner? No yes, PTSD can effect even 'macho men' but it still leaves permanent mental scars on them. They may still seem like 'macho men' but they're constantly showing signs they aren't anymore. And how Chara is usually portrayed to behave as in these AUs, she wouldn't have PTSD.

At least, to me it doesn't make sense.
What are your guys/gals thoughts on the matter? What sort of justification would you give for Chara having PTSD? Or to be guilt-ridden? Or are you of the group that sees Chara as a sociopathic killer, who only wants to kill?

For me, I can't see Chara as anything else than pure evil, because that is what she was meant to represent in the game, an evil that you can never really get rid of. Maybe as a game developer I am alone in this PoV

 

[LostHaven]

Honestly, I don't feel like Chara is a genocidal maniac. : P

I mean, if you complete the Genocide run twice in a row (I know I have no life), Chara actually tells you to take another route. I think people just don't like her because she screws up the pacifist endings : P she's my favourite Character beside Gaster and Sans

 

[Soulbreeze20]

I think Chara as PTSD, as he was a crazy character when I saw him on videos and such, even though I never played the game.

 

[ZeiruliousMakavar]

I think Chara is someone who misinterpreted the world and viewed it negatively, they believe in what they believe in and good luck changing that. They aren't right to make assumptions but they aren't wrong to misinterpret the world. In AUs I would refer to ask frisk and company for my favourite Chara but everyone can interpret Chara differently and that's whats so good about undertale

For me, I can't see Chara as anything else than pure evil, because that is what she was meant to represent in the game, an evil that you can never really get rid of. Maybe as a game developer I am alone in this PoV

When talking about in the game, it's never explicitly stated WHO Chara is. Yes, she's the first human and is the one who befriended Asriel before he became Flowey. But one thing that is heavily implied is that somehow her soul attached to Frisk's. This doesn't necessarily make Frisk Chara's reincarnation, but it does make the theory that Chara is the narrator of the game more plausible. That is, when ever you look at something in the game, the text that pops up explaining it, is Chara, explaining it to Frisk. It's why they know what everything is.

That could just be someone's rambling and grasping at straws, but it makes sense to me. That is to say, Chara appears in all three of the routes. Pacifist, Genocide, and Neutral. But you only 'meet' Chara in Genocide. It also explains why Chara becomes 'evil' in the Genocide route. Your actions, as the player, corrupted the piece of her soul that attached to Frisk.

Now, don't think I'm saying you're opinion is wrong Ezira . After all, it's your opinion, and I've no right to say that. ill-informed, perhaps. But that's all of our opinions of Chara, Frisk, Sans, and anyone else in Undertale, until Toby Fox outright states which one is a fact.

I think Chara as PTSD, as he was a crazy character when I saw him on videos and such, even though I never played the game.

Being crazy isn't a sign of PTSD, as many people would have you believe. PTSD, or post-traumatic stress disorder, (Once called 'Shell shocked') Is a medical condition that effects peoples psyche, yes but that doesn't mean all crazy people have PTSD. There is many other medical conditions that can lead to psychosis. Not just PTSD.

And as you've said, you've never played the game, so you don't have first hand knowledge of the character. Even videos such as Let's plays of Undertale don't really do it justice, as your opinion will be swayed by who ever is doing the video's opinion. No matter the type of video. That is, weather it's a fan theory, a 'comic dub', or a 'lets play', you're opinion is still effect by the person who made it.

For instance, if I made a fan theory video on Deadpool, giving facts about how he's a misogynistic asshole who hates everyone and their mother, and you knew nothing of the character, you'd be inclined to believe me. Because you're ill-informed of the actual character, beyond my video. Granted, Deadpool is an asshole... but he doesn't hate everyone and their mother. He'd probably rather sleep with their mother from what I've seen.

Either way, my point is that it's better to form your own opinion of a character, then to regurgitate the common opinion. Beyond that, if you re-read my post, you'll see I explain why Chara WOULDN'T have PTSD in most cases, besides the AUs that make her out to be the irredeemable evil, and even then Chara wouldn't have PTSD unless she went through something extremely traumatic. (One could argue dying can be traumatic, but I've never died to my knowledge so I wouldn't know.)