Fantasy [Title TBD] - Origins and Magic System Brainstorm

[Pandaskel]

Ok, so I’d like to start working on how the magic works/what it’s made of, etc. and the origins of the world. Do we live in a multiverse? Did goddesses pull us out of the ocean? Discuss!

For magic, I have this idea about it being “energy”. Like, the same way we manipulate light and heat to our will, we manipulate this energy. And the same way that light and heat can totally transform things, magic has powerful and unexpected manifestations

 

[Pandaskel]

Gravitational Force Dark lord steel Sprite Pepsi LoneWolf General_warNpeace Morzone Astralworks

 

[Morzone]

Well, generally I believe that the origin of the world and the base workings of magic should stem from the same thing.

Its important that we establish now how much modern day society knows about the workings of magic. I don't mean anything specific, but as an example in Harry potter there's quite a lot of magic that is unknown or unexplored, and the origin of magic/exact workings of magic are mostly a mystery. On the other hand, if anyone here has read the Eragon series, the workings of magic is pretty firmly established through the use of language, as well as a series of other rules governing the use of magic. Little differences in proper grammar actually make a major difference and can cause unintended consequences.

While we, as the developers, should generally understand more of the workings of magic than the people in the story, what the characters do actually know helps us to filter out what magic systems are better for creating the desired world as well as how much detail we need to go into.

 

[Gravitational Force]

In terms of a multiverse, I'd prefer to keep it to just a few realms at most, like The Magicians.

I'd like magic to be more easily done than in The Magicians, but not as easy as in Harry Potter. So you could have magic, but they wouldn't have an entire world around it.

 

[Pandaskel]

Well, generally I believe that the origin of the world and the base workings of magic should stem from the same thing.

Its important that we establish now how much modern day society knows about the workings of magic. I don't mean anything specific, but as an example in Harry potter there's quite a lot of magic that is unknown or unexplored, and the origin of magic/exact workings of magic are mostly a mystery. On the other hand, if anyone here has read the Eragon series, the workings of magic is pretty firmly established through the use of language, as well as a series of other rules governing the use of magic. Little differences in proper grammar actually make a major difference and can cause unintended consequences.

While we, as the developers, should generally understand more of the workings of magic than the people in the story, what the characters do actually know helps us to filter out what magic systems are better for creating the desired world as well as how much detail we need to go into.

I would disagree, actually. Deciding how much of society knows about magic sounds like it’s near the bottom of the to-do list, not the top. As the omniscient narrators, we can (and, arguably, should) know more than the denizens of our world do about the world itself. So why should their level of knowledge affect any of our creation process? Are we going to just not make certain parts of the world because people don’t know about that part?

 

[Pandaskel]

In terms of a multiverse, I'd prefer to keep it to just a few realms at most, like The Magicians.

I'd like magic to be more easily done than in The Magicians, but not as easy as in Harry Potter. So you could have magic, but they wouldn't have an entire world around it.

I agree, though your last sentence and second to last don’t make much sense together so could you explain a bit more?

 

[Gravitational Force]

I agree, though your last sentence and second to last don’t make much sense together so could you explain a bit more?

Like it wouldn't require so many rituals and ingredients but it wouldn't be the kind of thing where any kid could do it. So it'd be more of a subculture than an entire community.

 

[Sprite Pepsi]

So are we going with a hard or a soft magic system?

 

[LadyOfStars]

What do we all think about the way magic works in Once Upon A Time? Are there any rules in that universe you guys think would be good to implement here?

 

[Pandaskel]

So are we going with a hard or a soft magic system?

Please elaborate?

What do we all think about the way magic works in Once Upon A Time? Are there any rules in that universe you guys think would be good to implement here?

Never seen it but you’re welcome to draw inspiration! I’m definitely gonna make a list of ideas I’m getting from other franchises

 

[LadyOfStars]

Never seen it but you’re welcome to draw inspiration! I’m definitely gonna make a list of ideas I’m getting from other franchises

Never seen it?! Alright lol.

I do agree with the idea that the source of magic should be a natural energy of sorts that can be manipulated for various outcomes. That’s how I’ve always seen magic.

 

[Morzone]

Hard magic and soft magic systems. (I suppose this is more what I was getting at when I was talking about how much people know. If people don't really know much about magic, its a soft system. If its well known it's going to be well studied and the rules will be very clear, meaning it's a hard system.)
Here are some good videos explaining it.
part 1
part 2

I very much prefer Hard magic systems by the way : )

 

[Pandaskel]

Hard magic and soft magic systems. (I suppose this is more what I was getting at when I was talking about how much people know. If people don't really know much about magic, its a soft system. If its well known it's going to be well studied and the rules will be very clear, meaning it's a hard system.)
Here are some good videos explaining it.
part 1
part 2

I very much prefer Hard magic systems by the way : )

Sounds self explanatory. I prefer hard magic systems, too, now that I know what the terms mean, but since I don’t think I’ve even seen many soft magic systems, I’m gonna think about it some more before we make any hard decisions!

Please everyone, give input on this particular subject: hard or soft magic system?

 

[Pandaskel]

Never seen it?! Alright lol.

Now I’m insecure

 

[LadyOfStars]

Now I’m insecure

Don’t be! You’re lucky to have missed out on the slow crash and burn lol.

As far as the systems being soft or hard, when you talk about people knowing, are we including the whole world or just those capable of magic?

I for one think that the magic works is better when it’s separated from the mundane world. Although the opposite has its advantages too.

 

[Morzone]

Now I’m insecure

Don't worry I haven't seen it either! By the way, it may be a good idea to put a poll up at the top of the thread for the hard/soft magic system thing.

Personally, I like hard systems because it helps to eliminate squabbles over people using magic in an OP way. It makes magic a means, rather than an end, so you're driven to think creatively. There can be some soft elements in there, but that usually is based on perspective as I enjoy magic systems that are nuanced and widespread enough that it'd be next to impossible to master every aspect.

Edit: I don't think we've decided on whether the world is split between magic-people and non-magic, or if everyone can use magic. Both a soft magic and a hard magic system would be able to work in either situation though.

 

[Sprite Pepsi]

Please elaborate?

To quote wikipedia "Hard magic systems follow specific rules, the magic is controlled and explained to the reader cohesively and scientifically, and can be used for building interesting worlds that revolve around the magic system. Soft magic systems do not have clearly defined rules or limitations and are used to create a sense of wonder to the reader."

 

[Dark lord steel]

In warhammer they have the idea that eight winds of magic flow across the world from the domain of the dark gods (basically hell) and that some people (but not all) can tap into them. We could maybe do something like that?

 

[Table]

So, gotta drop some of my opinions here.

I'm personally fine on whether we will be using Hard Magic System or Soft Magic System. Hard Magic System can make a battle a lot more exciting, but I feel like an overly rigid magic system would limit the individuality/personality of our characters, and it would lost a lot of its magical feeling. On the other hand, while Soft Magic opens up a lot of room for creativity, if unregulated it can come off as some sort of 'deus ex machina system' where anyone can simply pull some bullshit power at any given time to win a conflict.

That being said, it should be noted that no magic system is either purely hard or soft. A magic system can be well defined while still giving room for creativity without making it feels like an asspull. It's just a matter of ruling the magic.

Also, this might just me being an avid Little Witch Academia fan, but I really like the magic system in LWA. There's some limitation on what the characters can do with magic, but not to the point that it lost its 'magic'-ness.

 

[Pandaskel]

So, gotta drop some of my opinions here.

I'm personally fine on whether we will be using Hard Magic System or Soft Magic System. Hard Magic System can make a battle a lot more exciting, but I feel like an overly rigid magic system would limit the individuality/personality of our characters, and it would lost a lot of its magical feeling. On the other hand, while Soft Magic opens up a lot of room for creativity, if unregulated it can come off as some sort of 'deus ex machina system' where anyone can simply pull some bullshit power at any given time to win a conflict.

That being said, it should be noted that no magic system is either purely hard or soft. A magic system can be well defined while still giving room for creativity without making it feels like an asspull. It's just a matter of ruling the magic.

Also, this might just me being an avid Little Witch Academia fan, but I really like the magic system in LWA. There's some limitation on what the characters can do with magic, but not to the point that it lost its 'magic'-ness.

Such good points about the hard vs soft issue, thank you!!


Ok, so what I'm thinking is a 60% hard-40% soft system, where people pretty much have it worked out but there's still a fair amount of mystery and unknown factors.

I'm not sure about the magic-mundane split. Most urban fantasy franchises make sure the mundane is separated from the magic, but a few pieces like the film Bright keep them together. My issue with this from a logical standpoint is that Bright's world-building sucked. If magic and fantasy creatures were around the whole time, that would have an effect on the way history played out. They didn't implement that at all.

So if we have magic fully implemented with no separation, we have to take into account how that would affect the way human history and development plays out - technology, social structure, everything. And I think that could be a fun challenge, honestly, to re-imagine the world we know. It's much easier to make like HP and The Magicians and keep them separate, and that has its fun as well (I love a giant well-kept secret).

 

[Gravitational Force]

I liked how The Magicians did it: magic was there, but Magicians were selfish and so kept it a secret as much as possible. So any events it did influence could have happened like they did in real life.

 

[Sprite Pepsi]

.

Ok, so what I'm thinking is a 60% hard-40% soft system, where people pretty much have it worked out but there's still a fair amount of mystery and unknown factors.

I might be on board with this idea, but it depends on what sort of unknown factors make up that 40%.

In warhammer they have the idea that eight winds of magic flow across the world from the domain of the dark gods (basically hell) and that some people (but not all) can tap into them. We could maybe do something like that?

I'm not very well-versed in Warhammer lore, but based on the wiki article I skimmed through it sounds like an interesting magic system so I'd be totally up for using a similar one.

 

[Pandaskel]

So it seems we've got a few ideas on the "Source of all Magic". The same way that the sun is the main source of light and heat for our solar system, maybe there's a main source of all magic, that being a god or an object or a place or whatever. Discuss!

 

[Gravitational Force]

I like how The Magicians did it with magic just flowing into the world, but I'd take out the part where the gods can just shut it off.

 

[Pandaskel]

I like how The Magicians did it with magic just flowing into the world, but I'd take out the part where the gods can just shut it off.

Well it comes from the gods. So yeah, if magic comes from a god, they can shut it off. Are you saying you just liked the cool little water flowing imagery?