Experiences The exact opposite of Mary Sue.

[M.J. Saulnier]

Mary Sue is a female character that has an impossible range of skills, talents, capabilities, and the aforementioned lack of flaws or weaknesses. But it's tricky, because some actually have one major, cheesy weakness such as anxiety, or a fear of drowning. This is often used to distract from the overall omnipotence of the build.


But Mary Sues are far more rare than their male counterparts, the Gary Stu. The Garys are the real issue. Males simply cannot resist building well-rounded, versatile idols who they then proceed to pad to death, making sure they are prepared for whatever may come their way.


Sues and Stus suck, and they grow tiresome in long-term arrangements, but I've learned to work with/around/through them.

EDIT: One of the biggest examples of a Sue/Stu character is The Doctor from Doctor Who. He/She has a wealth of wisdom and intelligence, and they adapt to situations instantaneously. They always rise above, outwit, and defeat their opponents with relative ease.

Some role players try to Sue/Stu builds that aren't even Sue'ish. They just always rise above, always figure it out, always win.

 

[Crenando]

Mary Sue is overused to the point of losing its meaning.
Is it a perfect character? A character who's really good at something? A character that doesn't lose? A character you don't happen to like? Any combination of those?

 

[M.J. Saulnier]

Mary Sue is overused to the point of losing its meaning.
Is it a perfect character? A character who's really good at something? A character that doesn't lose? A character you don't happen to like? Any combination of those?

There's actually clear definitions if you look for them.

It is sort of a perfect character. The slick hotshot who always says, does, and feels exactly the right things, at exactly the right times. Has knowledge, skills, and resources beyond any and all rational logic, and can adapt to virtually any situation the universe is capable of presenting before them. They'll never once stumble, waver or falter. They will not only win, but look and sound perfect doing it.

There are very much degrees of severity, and again, some people overplay characters that aren't Sue'ish on paper.

 

[Crenando]

There's actually clear definitions if you look for them.

It is sort of a perfect character. The slick hotshot who always says, does, and feels exactly the right things, at exactly the right times. Has knowledge, skills, and resources beyond any and all rational logic, and can adapt to virtually any situation the universe is capable of presenting before them. They'll never once stumble, waver or falter. They will not only win, but look and sound perfect doing it.

There are very much degrees of severity, and again, some people overplay characters that aren't Sue'ish on paper.

It did at one point, but I've heard it be used for all the definitions I mentioned. Even if there's a clear-cut definition, people don't actually use it properly so it doesn't matter.
For instance, I remember one of those youtubers that explains comic storylines for people who can't be bothered to actually read them said 'a Mary Sue is a character that is better at things than someone could realistically be' and cited Batman as an example, using the term neutrally.

That's more why I asked what it meant than actually not knowing the definition.

 

[M.J. Saulnier]

Even if there's a clear-cut definition, people don't actually use it properly so it doesn't matter.

 

[Crenando]

I feel that.

 

[Kazami42]

It did at one point, but I've heard it be used for all the definitions I mentioned. Even if there's a clear-cut definition, people don't actually use it properly so it doesn't matter.
For instance, I remember one of those youtubers that explains comic storylines for people who can't be bothered to actually read them said 'a Mary Sue is a character that is better at things than someone could realistically be' and cited Batman as an example, using the term neutrally.

That's more why I asked what it meant than actually not knowing the definition.

As Dap642 once said in a stickman game, fam:
"This, this irks me."

Though the intent is understood, the phrasing turns me skeletal.

 

[Crayons]

For instance, I remember one of those youtubers that explains comic storylines for people who can't be bothered to actually read them said 'a Mary Sue is a character that is better at things than someone could realistically be' and cited Batman as an example, using the term neutrally.

Jeez, someone wanted to explain Mary Sue with a comic book example and they chose Batman? Instead of Superman?! XDDDD

 

[Crenando]

Jeez, someone wanted to explain Mary Sue with a comic book example and they chose Batman? Instead of Superman?! XDDDD

He chose Batman because he got the definition of it completely wrong. I think he might've said 'too good at something for the setting', but what does that mean in a comic book world?

Tying it back to the point, in the hands of a good writer, I'd say Superman is a character that demonstrates that you don't have to give a character a million flaws to try and make them interesting.

 

[M.J. Saulnier]

Jeez, someone wanted to explain Mary Sue with a comic book example and they chose Batman? Instead of Superman?! XDDDD

Both Batman and Superman are technically Gary Stus.

Batman is actually worse when you take a closer look. Aside from Kal's yellow sun powers, he really isn't very capable. He was always a mediocre journalist due to his bias toward the job of Superman. He's just an average farm boy from Kansas.

Then you have Bruce. Born into a tech empire and inherited billions from his family. After the gruesome slaying of both parents in cold blood, Bruce becomes a vigilante and despite having no 'real' superpowers (Bruce has a superhuman intellect) keeps pace with the entire Justice League. He holds a bare minimum of a black belt in hundreds of martial arts, has a plethora of high tech gadgets and toys he deploys using his mastery of stealth, tactical combat and superhuman powers of deduction.

He is undefeated in Marvel Crossovers, and even took down The Hulk in one issue.


Bruce has a Stu build, and he's usually written as a Stu. All of this is what makes him the best pound for pound super hero of all time. He's not only one of the OG's, but one of the most compelling characters in comics at the core level.

 

[Delinquent]

He's just an average farm boy from Kansa

I'll admit that I haven't read Superman comics in a really long time, but isn't he ridiculously smart?

 

[Crenando]

I'll admit that I haven't read Superman comics in a really long time, but isn't he ridiculously smart?

That sort of depends on the writer and when the comic was made, but in terms of attitude, he is just an average dude from Kansas.

 

[Kazami42]

That sort of depends on the writer and when the comic was made, but in terms of attitude, he is just an average dude from Kansas.

And then you have Russian Superman with a mind control fetish, and grimdark batman. I believe the title was red tails. They even have a Superman clone designed to fight superman, and a giant deathbot that shrinks and obliterates an entire city.

There's even the wall[™.] And no, they're not like Bollywood or turkish ripoffs with b-grade name change, literally the OGs but if they were Russian. There's even superwoman, and a bunch of green lantern ripoffs.

Apparently, their backgrounds are more diverse than once previously thought. But as a baseline, yes. Good thoughted average Kansas boi with a invulnerability to getting shot and squished. Unless the rounds or object in question is constructed or originates from kyptonite. Though, not immune to psychological warfare.

 

[Phantom Thief of Hearts]

Lads, we need to learn to stop using Mary Sue as the go to criticism of a character. Like what Crenando said it is used so much that it's now simply a buzzword.

Also if you want to see a real Mary Sue that would make the original that the term derive from blush... I present to you a "Good Catholic Girl"

 

[Phantom Thief of Hearts]

EDIT: One of the biggest examples of a Sue/Stu character is The Doctor from Doctor Who. He/She has a wealth of wisdom and intelligence, and they adapt to situations instantaneously. They always rise above, outwit, and defeat their opponents with relative ease.

Some role players try to Sue/Stu builds that aren't even Sue'ish. They just always rise above, always figure it out, always win.

Dude, either you clearly don't know what a "Sue" is or you've exclusively seen the bad episodes of the Revival Series of Doctor Who. Also you kinda contradicted yourself in this whole thing.

Bruce has a Stu build, and he's usually written as a Stu. All of this is what makes him the best pound for pound super hero of all time. He's not only one of the OG's, but one of the most compelling characters in comics at the core level.

Judge Dredd won that fight though... Also Batman, himself, in your signature said had his fight with Captain America had gone on longer Cap would have beaten him.

And then you have Russian Superman with a mind control fetish, and grimdark batman. I believe the title was red tails.

It's called Superman: Red Son

 

[Thawne]

Tbh, calling Batman a Gary Stu is a pretty bad take. Dude doesn’t always win his fights, he’s outclassed in a lot of different areas by other DC characters (Knightfall, is my first reference), and he definitely struggled to get to where he is to be Batman.

 

[Phantom Thief of Hearts]

Tbh, calling Batman a Gary Stu is a pretty bad take. Dude doesn’t always win his fights, he’s outclassed in a lot of different areas by other DC characters (Knightfall, is my first reference), and he definitely struggled to get to where he is to be Batman.

Remember in "The Long Halloween" were Batman didn't solve the Holiday Murders?

 

[Crow]

Speaking of, anyone remember this saga? It's pretty heated but it's pretty much 'Batman is Mary Sue' vs 'Batman isn't Mary Sue'.

 

[Phantom Thief of Hearts]

Speaking of, anyone remember this saga? It's pretty heated but it's pretty much 'Batman is Mary Sue' vs 'Batman isn't Mary Sue'.

Imagine taking Tom "Incel" Preston seriously.

 

[salty_ moustachio]

Speaking of, anyone remember this saga? It's pretty heated but it's pretty much 'Batman is Mary Sue' vs 'Batman isn't Mary Sue'.

Wouldn't this make Batman a Gary Stu? Haha. But he is annoyingly perfect for someone with literally no superpowers. I recently was watching the Justice League movie and Superman throws Batman around like a rag doll and he's only got a few scratches. It's like dude, no amount of gym work will make you invincible to a Superman attack. But alas superhumans can't even hurt Batman cause reasons.

 

[Phantom Thief of Hearts]

Wouldn't this make Batman a Gary Stu? Haha. But he is annoyingly perfect for someone with literally no superpowers. I recently was watching the Justice League movie and Superman throws Batman around like a rag doll and he's only got a few scratches. It's like dude, no amount of gym work will make you invincible to a Superman attack. But alas superhumans can't even hurt Batman cause reasons.

Don't use a movie that most DCEU fans find to be terrible as a point of reference. 'Cause honestly it shows how poor the development of the film was and that's a no-brainer.

 

[Crayons]

Personally I think Batman is less of a Mary Sue because he has flaws. A lot of flaws. He's obsessive and unhinged, sometimes moreso than the villains he takes on (depending what bit of Batman you're reading but Arkham Asylum is pretty good for acknowledging his psychological weaknesses), and those flaws come from within his psyche. Whereas Superman is just super nice, and capital G Good, gets along with everyone, has all the superpowers, is basically invulnerable, and only has one tacked-on stupid weakness that isn't part of his character: Kryptonite.

 

[Phantom Thief of Hearts]

Personally I think Batman is less of a Mary Sue because he has flaws. A lot of flaws. He's obsessive and unhinged, sometimes moreso than the villains he takes on (depending what bit of Batman you're reading but Arkham Asylum is pretty good for acknowledging his psychological weaknesses), and those flaws come from within his psyche.

Actually you're forgetting that Batman's biggest flaw is that he's paranoid as fuck. In the Comic arc "Batman: Hush" he broke up with Catwoman after a short relationship over the fact she said "Hush" once.

 

[Crayons]

Actually you're forgetting that Batman's biggest flaw is that he's paranoid as fuck. In the Comic arc "Batman: Hush" he broke up with Catwoman after a short relationship over the fact she said "Hush" once.

No, I'm not, I said he had a bucketload of psychological flaws. Paranoia surely counts as part of that.

 

[Phantom Thief of Hearts]

No, I'm not, I said he had a bucketload of psychological flaws. Paranoia surely counts as part of that.

I did say it's his biggest flaw. Also the fact that on a technicality all of his villains are technically his fault.