Video Games Stormcloaks V.S. Imperials

[Amicus]

Personally, I didn't side with either my first time. I was playing as a wood elf who came to Skyrim from Valenwood because- consistent with the lore- her family had been purged by the Dominion. She saw that the Empire was being puppeted by the Dominion and was hoping to curb that from within the Imperial ranks in Skyrim. She was more than happy to join the empire and fight alongside humans to undermine the overarching goal of the Dominion, but once she arrived in Skyrim she saw it wasn't so black and white. Mind you she was young and didn't fully understand the relationship between the Dominion and the Empire at the time. She wanted to undermine the Dominion by joining the Empire, but she didn't agree with the fact that the Empire was arresting people for practicing their beliefs and following their traditions. It was too similar to what she had encountered with the High Elves. She looked to the Stormcloaks in the hopes that the rebellion would be a clean cut answer, but all she found was racist attitudes and people who didn't see the bigger picture of their actions. So instead, she assisted in brokering the peace talks in hopes that the Empire would lose power but still be able to keep the Stormcloaks in check, and the people of Skyrim could practice their beliefs but still have to co-exist with other races. It was boring as all hell, but in line with my character.

In my own opinion, however, I hate the gray morality of the Stormcloaks vs Imperials story arc. You either pick the problematic imperialists who are useful in the sense that many societies in Tamriel have become co-dependent on the empire or the problematic rebels who have a not-so-subtle tinge of racism in their core message but deserve freedom. If I had to choose I would have to pick the empire. They provide stability and resources to areas in need and benefit more people than would be helped by a coup on behalf of the Stormcloaks. My mentality is that, if there is any rebellion that massively affronts the Empire and causes such significant shifts in the political/government structures of the continent it should not start with the Stormcloaks. I know, I know, the whole if not me, who? If not now, when? mentality is compelling, but altogether doesn't consider the larger implications of the Stormcloaks winning against the Empire. If the first major rebellion against the Empire is chock full of nationalist and racist undertones that kind of mentality would definitely spread to others trying to free themselves from the grasp of the Empire (like a "follow the leader" chain of events). That's just my opinion, though! The great thing about video games is people get to approach them from so many different perspectives and take things away from them or notice things I may have never considered!

This was brief, but now I have to go read about the African presence in Iran for class :')

Thanks for the engaging question! It's a discussion that never really gets old, I think.

Best,

Amicus

 

[Shog]

M.J. Saulnier
I've talked myself into and out of responding more times than I want to admit, so I'm just going to get it over with. First off, if you honestly cannot find a single reason as to why joining the Stormcloaks can be bad in this page alone then why are you debating this at all? I came with an open mind hoping to find others like that, but if you cannot accept any points made by the opposition then please just don't. I also want to make it clear that a "classic" reasoning is just as valid, if not more so, than the others. Rebellions are often viewed as people fighting to overthrow a corrupt government, but they do often cause needless death and destruction to achieve their goals, causing socioeconomic instability in the process and then maintain power through fear afterwords. Obviously this isn't a perfect representation of the Stormcloak Rebellion, but it still caused far more damage than if they decided to be patient and actually help in the upcoming war with the Dominion. Say what you want about Ulfirc's fight with the high king of Skyrim, but can we really say the use of the Thuum is honorable or "the nord way?" Especially when a traditional nord dual results in the loser being banished instead of killed. Plus the simple irony here is that Ulfric did this in an attempt to grab power, which is approximately half of the reason you dislike the Empire. So the leader of the Stormcloaks is allowed to grab power for personal gain, but the Empire isn't allowed to do that for the benefit of their entire country. That makes perfect sense. Again, there is their racism (I will direct you to my first post for that one). Now if you are asking me to argue with the basic ideals your typical Stormcloak soldier fights for then I will not. A person has the right to fight for what they believe in. I still stand by my belief that their anger is misled and if they stopped to look at their situation then the brighter ones would at least see the flaw in fighting the Empire (at that given time. Once the Dominion is dealt with then all bets are off).

As for the general assimilation into the Empire, it's not like they are trying to rework their entire culture to mold them to the Cyrodiilic mindset. If that was true then the worship of Talos would have never been tolerated, the nords would have been forced to stop worshiping their gods, stopped their belief in Sovernguard, and their entire government system with Jarls and Thanes would have been disbanded, to give a few examples. Still you persist that the Empire should be abandoned for their methods of obtaining power, but no one holds grudges for that long. The Empire formed 4,184 years ago and most conquests appear to have occurred in the first era. To give you some perspective, that's like being angry about something happening back when the bronze age began in China. I also discovered that about the same time Skyrim led a series of conquests across Morrowind and High Rock to assimilate them into Skyrim territory. Sound familiar? Perhaps we should start punishing the people of Skyrim for doing that all those years ago. The only difference between that and the Empire is that the Empire successfully unified several provinces in a mutually beneficial manner during their time. So the Nords are not "pissed off about the principal and approach." They are pissed off about having to suffer for a war that didn't take place on their own land. That's a fair reason to be mad, but they aren't upset about being part of the Empire because of how they joined. If they were then they would have left long before now. You only enforce this idea in your earlier post by pointing out that Nords will fight to the last man for what they believe in. All provinces have a long history of "bad mojo," but that shouldn't be a factor in making these decisions. Yes one should consider the past to guess what actions people will take in the future, but the future is all that really matters. Especially in this position.

 

[M.J. Saulnier]

In the beginning of your rant, you described Cyrodill to a T. Like perfectly, except for the rebellion thing.

You are equally bias toward The Empire, having said other's opinions "only strengthened your own." So I think I am more than done here.

 

[welian]

I usually join the Legion because I think Nords are lame.

 

[M.J. Saulnier]

Shog Main sources of tension between Nords & Imperials in Skyrim:

1. Worship of Thalos

2. "Skyrim is for the Nords!" (AKA, WE DON'T WANT IMPERIALS HERE!!)


Seriously, bud.... Do you pay attention at all?

There isn't a civil war because Skyrim loves being in the Empire, lol. Have you listened to even 1 Nord in-world? Seriously.

 

[Shog]

M.J. Saulnier

I'm not sure why you think this post was necessary. That is not what I was saying in the least. As I said in my last post "They are pissed off about having to suffer for a war that didn't take place on their own land." I am not saying Skyrim loves being in the empire. For someone accusing me of not paying attention you certainly have selective reading. Let me put this another way: The Stormcloaks are angry because Cyrodiil lost the Great War, and now they have to suffer the consequences of their defeat when the war wasn't aimed diectly at them or their people. I have always understood this. It's actually the main reason I don't like the Empire. I have plenty of fuel to use against the Empire. The reason I side with them is because I believe if Skyrim can suck it up for a bit longer then they can deal with the Dominion (the bigger threat) more efficiently. It is also inaccurate when you say "Nords V.S. Imperials." While most Stormcloaks are Nords (not going to say all because at the very least the Dragonborn can join them as any race) and most Empire soldiers are Imperials, there are plenty of Nord soldiers for the Empire as well as a few other races scattered in there.

Well, so much for being more than done here. At this point I will probably ignore your next post. Not because I haven't enjoyed our debate in the past, but because we have gone back and forth so many times that both of our core reasonings are out there and any further arguing would only be attempts to chip away at that reasoning and convince the other person they are completely wrong (what I want to avoid in this thread). If I read your post then I will only be tempted to respond to it, continuing the cycle until we are both at each other's throats. Thank you, and good bye.

 

[DemetrioMachete]

My reasons for joining the Imperials? There are many.

• Despite being an Imperial and generally out of the way of most of it, Nord racism is outright disgusting. You don't even need to look at the Stormcloaks to see that. As any Nord bandit will tell you "Skyrim belongs to the Nords!"
• Ulfric Stormcloak murdered the High King with the Thu'um. I found a few things wrong with this. I think Ulfric's motives are selfish. Deep down I don't think he cares about the well-being of Skyrim. He just wants to be High-King. Also, the Thu'um is MY weapon, asshole. He thinks he is hot shit because he can use Unrelenting Force? Bah!
• I wanted a worthy opponent. Ulfric Stormcloak, being another Thu'um user, was up for the challenge. (He failed.)
• Ulfric is also blind in his selfish motives. He refuses to believe that the Thalmor are the real threat. Their racism is even worse than that of the Nords. Rather than unite with the Empire for some Elf brutality on the level of Dorf Fortress, he instead opposes the Empire like a starved beast, hungering for power. Thats not even getting at Alduin.
• Even as I was about to be executed, the Empire was respectful (except for that one lady. Screw her.) It clicked with me that I should probably not ally with the Stormcloaks.

Hope that tickles your lore fancy.

 

[Zombocalypse]

OP, I apologize in advance if my answer does not fit your standards. But I'll talk anyway.

I haven't gotten that far in the game. The highest level I've reached in the game is only 24. I play at legendary difficulty and prefer to take my time. And also, I love restarting over and over again. I've become very good at the beginning of the game. I know how to hit level 20 with flair because I've done it many times.

My opinion is something coming from someone with a first impression of the lore. And this is what I think...

Ulfric is Vegeta and Tullius is Raditz. Ulfric is a quintessential badboy with the innate instinct to fight. Tullius is a loyal follower of the system who wants to preserve tradition.

Whichever side you pick is the right decision because both sides are pursuing equally noble ends.

I personally prefer Ulfric but I mostly stick with the Empire most of the time, because most of the characters I play are Machiavellian. They choose the practical side, and the Empire oozes victory because they are part of something bigger than Skyrim. As simple as that.

Tullius seems incredibly intellectual while Ulfric is a mere brute. In war, intellect always wins against brute force.

As far as who is right or wrong, I couldn't care less. Both sides have their hearts in the right place. That's all I care about.

In the end, the victorious will be the one with the luxury to justify.



I also want to add that even though I mostly side with the Empire, I like Ulfric better. The man has guts.

 

[Val Quirno]

Its a really hard choice...But I have to say Imperials

 

[M.J. Saulnier]

Leave it to an Imperial to defend the Empire by blaming the High Elves and admit the Nords are "suffering" in the same sentence.


RIP this pompous thread.


Zombocalypse Your observation is indicative of someone who admits they haven't gotten that far, and has topped out at lvl 24. Just saying. Cyrodiil's ends are about as noble as Nazi Germany's were, it's just harder to see when you don't know the lore.

 

[Gui]

It depends on the character in roleplaying as. My main character was Imperial Hunter. At first my character was going to join the stormcloaks from sheer spite for his traumatic capture. As I tried to learn more however I realised that the end game was pointless or rather less stable than that with the imperial forces. I realised this rebellion would not last against the full force of the empire not to mention a hypothesis strike from the aldemrian dominion. My character soon realized that the imperial military is simply trying to keep a balance. The way he reasoned it was the needs of the many outweighed the needs of the few. After that he added the fact that he was an imperial after all and it was his duty to fight in his country's army.

 

[Physiicz]

I hate all sides. Being an Orc I've been oppressed my whole life so still have a little bit of sympathy for the Stormcloaks having their nordic ways compromised by the Imperials and Thalmor. Seeing as there are more Imperials than Stormcloaks I'll have more killing to do on the Stormcloaks side.

In conclusion, I'd pick the Stormcloaks every time.