Video Games Stormcloaks V.S. Imperials

[Shog]

I'm probably beating a dead horse and I'm sure this has been done on this site before, but I want to hear your opinion: Why did you join the side you did for the Civil War quest line in The Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim? Please do not reply if your response is something along the lines of "Stormcloaks sound better" or "I am loyal to the Imperials after playing Oblivion" or "Because I like them." I've searched around on the internet looking for peoples opinions, but all forms of logic quickly break down into "Because the Imperials like sucking Thalmor c*ck" or "Anyone who joins the Stormcloaks must have a negative IQ." If you do not have a real (preferably lore based) reason for your choice, please do not reply. Similarly I want this to be a place where both sides can discuss their choice openly, so please do us all a favor and leave if you came here with the intention of convincing other people you're right. There is a fine line between persuasion and just stating your reasoning, but there is still a line.

If you made it this far: Congratulations! You can probably add intelligent input into this discussion! To start off, let me get this out of the way: I support the Imperials. I believe that Skyrim will benefit in the long run from their victory over the Stormcloaks. I'm also going to clear up a common misconception about the imperials: They do not like the Altmeri Dominion. In the end, the Dominion is the enemy of both sides. The Imperials and Thalmor are sort of working together, but the Imperials are not happy about it. The only reason they are is because they lost the Great War. I often hear Stormcloaks and Stormcloak supporters say the Imperials should be ashamed of their compliance to the White Gold Concordant, but that would be a great blemish on their honor. A true Nord knows when they're defeated and will honor that, yet they expect the Imperials to blemish their honor and disregard the Concordant?

The argument we've all seen is how the Imperials are actively trying to repress the Nords by banning the worship of Talos. That must be taken at face value, right? It's not like the Imperials altered the entire religion practiced through the Empire to adapt to nordic beliefs when Skyrim joined the Empire. Oh wait, they did. The Imperials are one of the most open minded races (generally) in all of Tamriel and do not care who you worship. The Altmeri Dominion, on the other hand, do. They believe in elven superiority and added the ban of Talos worship into the White Gold Concordant to piss off the Nords and create instability in Skyrim. The Stormcloaks played right into their hands.

Speaking of Thalmor manipulation, they even manipulated Ulfric. In Thalmor Dossier: Ulfric Stormcloak, it was explained how they made him think he overheard valuable information during his interrogation and let him escape. From there they used the Markarth Incident (caused by Ulfric) to further enforce the ban of Talos worship. Further on it made note of how they wanted Ulfric to stay alive. It sounds as though, had Alduin not appeared, the Thalmor would have made a move to free Ulfric at the beginning of the game. If Ulfric lives, then the Imperials have the edge in the War which the Thalmor does not want because that means Skyrim remains under Imperial control and out of their reach.

It looks as though I'm being favortistic (as to be expected), so let's look at something not so great the Empire did in regards to the Altmeri Dominion. They abandoned Hammerfell and kicked them out of the Empire sometime after Cyrodiil fell and the Dominion was working on taking Hammerfell. What good empire would abandon such a large portion of their people in such a time of need? One with foresight. With Cyrodiil fallen, they would need to order all Empire soldiers to stop fighting the Dominion. Not only did they allow Hammerfell to keep fighting, but they also fired all soldiers and officers stationed in Hammerfell (that didn't want to come back to Cyrodiil). This allowed all of their soldiers to keep fighting for what they believed in without violating the terms of the Concordant.

Lastly, I'm going to bring this back to some faults of the Stormcloaks. Mainly their racism. If you don't believe that the Nords are racist, then please get past that mental block.

Spoiler: Racism Examples

Rolff: "You come here where you're not wanted, you eat our food, you pollute our city with your stink and you refuse to help the Stormcloaks."
Suvaris: "But we haven't taken a side because it's not our fight."
Angrenor: "Hey, maybe the reason these gray-skins don't help in the war is because they're Imperial spies!"
Suvaris: "Imperial spies? You can't be serious!"
Rolff: "Maybe we'll pay you a visit tonight, little spy. We got ways of finding out what you really are."
"Go back to Morrowind, Dark Elf maggots! You're not welcome here!"
"Get out of our city, gray-skins! This is Nord land!"
"We don't want your kind here, dark elves!"
"This place reeks of gray-skin filth!"
"You like living in this filthy slum, dark elves? Maybe you should go back to Morrowind, where you belong!"
Then there's the Argonian dock workers. Did you know that their employer pays them 8 septims per day? If minimum wage was a thing, that would certainly be below. When you talk to Torbjorn Shatter-Shield, their employer, he starts by saying "Those boots aren't worth the septims I do pay them. I'm not giving them coin I could give to good, Nord workers."
Khajiits aren't allowed in cities because of prejudice.

It's true that this is most strongly felt in Windhelm (where all of my examples came from) and focused mainly on the Dark Elves and Argonians, but why would they stop there? After all, "Skyrim belongs to the Nords." Plus, Windhelm is the center for all Stormcloak activity and if the Stormcloaks win then that will be the cornerstone for all Nord behavior. I'm not saying the other races aren't racist either (again, high elf), but Nord (especially Stormclaok racism) will bite them in the back. If the Empire is pushed out of Skyrim then the Altmeri Dominion will waste no time invading Skyrim, who's people are tired, divided, and short of man power. They won't stand a chance against the force that successfully invaded the Imperial City. They might stand a chance if they had any allies, but they want all other races out of Skyrim and treat them like trash, so no one is going to come to their aid. If Skyrim is for the Nords, they they can defend it by themselves.

I personally believe that no side is "right" in the Civil War (and it's designed to be so), but I believe siding with the Empire will help in the long run to take down the Altmeri Dominion. Please, share your opinion on the matter and poke hols in my argument. I'm hear for a good debate, after all.

 

[Windsock]

Skyrim is for the nords.

Make Skyrim Great Again!

 

[Shog]

Skyrim is for the nords.

Make Skyrim Great Again!

I made this thread in hopes of having a real discussion on the subject. I would have honestly preferred "Because I like them" over that response. If I was looking for any reasoning that could be explained in a sentence or two I would have scoured YouTube comments. In case I wasn't perfectly clear with my first paragraph in my first post or anything previously said in this one: This is the exact opposite of the comments I want. If you were trying to be humerus then good attempt (I guess), but please take it to a thread where those kinds of comments at least fit in.

(Sorry I sound like an ass hole, but I did not write 6 paragraphs (7 if you include the last one) to get a response made of 9 words that can't even be construed as a viable argument.)

 

[Samuel James Aran]

I joined the Imperials because of one of the lines I heard. In the game several soldiers told my character that the Empire needed Skyrim's help when it rises up against the Aldmari Dominion. Skyrim is home to natural-born warriors that showed great bravery when the great war happened and Cyrodil admits they lasted as long as they did because of Skyrim's noble warriors. I honestly agree with all my heart in those thoughts. The Empire needs Skyrim, more then ever!

 

[M.J. Saulnier]

The Septim Empire is all about power, and they gamble with thousands of lives like chess pieces while playing their games. Like the Third Empire before them, they are a ragged house of warmongers and corrupted souls on personal missions of grandeur. Nothing more than an imitation, a husk of the glory of Alessia. There's a self-centered sense of righteousness about Cyrodiil... You know? "Accept our ways and be ruled by us, so we don't have to kill more of you." They practice a brand of racism that's more modern. "We'll rule you, tell you how to live, what to believe, our soldiers will loom over your towns and cities, and you'll basically work for us, empowering and enriching our territory, resources, and numbers.

What do you think will happen when everyone is defeated and Cyrodiil rules Tamriel? Aldmari Dominion aside, because this is old news, "Imperials" were the slaves of elves since before recorded history. The Dominion are the ultimate antagonist, either way. Yet Cyrodiill wants to charge around Tamriel, sword in one hand, dick in the other. If I come over to your house and start pushing people, breaking stuff, and causing arguments, hurting people, it doesn't matter if I have a genuinely good reason behind my selfish, rude motives; I handled it wrong. I crossed lines, I was an aggressive dick about it. Fact is, they are the aggressor. You have Cyrodillic forces, in Skyrim causing drama. Nords just want to be left alone. It's not really about them belonging there anymore than westerners belong in North America when you want to get dirty and technical like that, it's believed Nords migrated to Tamriel from Atmora to the far north. Fact is, Cyrodiil is the militaristic, expansionist empire who is constantly invading regions and cultures, trying to establish and assimilate. They are The Borg with a Greek Tragedy twist. I don't support them, at all. They are #1 problem right now, because Aldmeri forces aren't actively trying to take over the world, spilling trillions of gallons of Tamriel blood.

I chose Stormcloak as the lesser of 2 primitive, arrogant, infantile militias ruled by deluded assholes with a god complex.

All that aside, at the start of the game, yet again, I'm a prisoner of Cyrodill. I'm starting to see a pattern here, lol. N0 really, first 5 minutes of play time, Tullius is ranting about 'the Empire putting people down' and good men's heads are being cut the fuck off, and I just picture old footage of Hitler's feverish rants. They want you to join the Stormcloaks, lol.

Samuel James Aran Is invading, killing most of Skyrim's noble warriors, fathers, mothers, brothers, uncles, sons, really going to help in the fight against the High Elf threat when it comes? Let's say you still get 40% of Skryim (being very generous) after all deaths & career-ending injuries, all the animosity it will take generations to wash clean, you've taken 60% away from yourself. The Nords will fight to the last woman and child, so no, I really don't think it's the right move to invade. But Imperials aren't written as the wisest, or the most logical of all the cultures. They rank among the bottom bracket for intellect and wisdom when it really comes down to it, because of stuff like this. They see everything through an asinine lense.

 

[daesung]

I'm not really sure why I like the Stromcloaks.
I mean, they left no man behind when I was to be executed by the Imperials.
Plus, the Imperials have no place in Skyrim. Skyrim is for the nords.
That's besides my point.
I'm going to be completely honest,
I really don't have a side to pick.

 

[RoyalPhoenix32]

In my opinion, I say both sides need to stop acting like children over a damned toy and see the bigger picture. The Dominion needs to taught a lesson but given the facts that NOT ALL altmer are Thalmor, and not all nords are racist. Tulius wanted to put a show on so he can stall.

 

[M.J. Saulnier]

Plus, the Imperials have no place in Skyrim. Skyrim is for the nords.

Skyrim was for the Snow Elves, until the Atmorans came from the north and colonized the first human settlements on Tamriel, so yes, they do belong there more than Cyrodiil does, lol.

SKyrim provides a key strategic position, and Cyrodiil is willing to tear Skyrim apart to obtain it. It's a central location with a rough terrain and many mountainous regions to provide geostrategical advantages in taking over the rest of Tamriel, that's why the Aldmari have a presence and clear investment in the province as well.

What most don't realize is that this war is a civil war, not a war with Cyrodiil. The Empire is orchestrating a civil war within Skyrim, because some back the rebels, while some back the Empire. So this is worst possible scenario for Skyrim. This war has divided it's very people, it's families, communities. No matter what side wins, Skyrim loses. It's Nord vs Nord out there just as much as Nord vs Imperial.

 

[daesung]

M.J. Saulnier
I know it's a civil war. They practically say that a trillion times theoughout the main storyline.
And yeah, you're right.

 

[Collidias Rex]

Stormcloaks are full of righteous rage (or, so they see it) whereas the Empire seems to be fighting for less emotional reasons - at least, that's the impression I get from the majority of soldiers. I choose the Stormcloaks because it's great fun to adopt the mantle of an angry skyrim citizen and wrench the power back from pretentious holier-than-thou assholes in shiny uniforms.

So it really boils down to:

"SKYRIM BELONGS TO THE NODS!"

... because that kind of character feels really good to play.

 

[Shog]

M.J. Saulnier
You have some valid points, but some of what you said is straight up wrong. Mainly "...because Aldmeri forces aren't actively trying to take over the world..." Yes, they are. The Aldmeri Dominion is so invested in their Elven superiority that they do want to take over all of Tamriel. Why do you think they began slowly taking territory from the Empire before eventually raging war upon Cyrodiil, the heart of the Empre? Second, you paint the Imperials as savage conquerors. The truth is, they looked for ways to create mutually beneficial pacts with other provinces. In the great words of Yarl Balgruuf when asked why side with the Empire: "Mutual advantage! Any fool can see that. For centuries we have benefited from the Empire's protection, and prosperous trade with the south. In exchange, the people of Cyrodiil sleep peacefully, knowing their norther border is guarded by the fiercest warriors in all of Tamriel." The research I've done on the beginning of the Empire is remarkably unspecific, but it did mention that the Empire brought upon a time of peace as well as political, economical, and cultural growth throughout all of Tamriel. I doubt the proud Elves, stubborn and warlike Nords, or solitary Argonians would stand for being forced into the empire.

Now don't get me wrong, there was some bloody battles between the Empire and other provinces to force upon submission. The most notable being Tiber Septim, also known as Talos Stormcrown (ironic how many Stormcloaks fight in the name of Talos, despite him being a former Emperor of their enemies). They aren't people with hearts of gold, fighting to keep Skyrim in the empire because they believe it's right. No, they are definitely still protecting their own interests, but it just so happens that they are also helping protect Skyrim in the process. I've said it before and I'll say it again: Skyrim won't stand a chance if they leave the Empire under Stormcloak command. You've probably heard a guard say it a time or two, and they are most certainly correct: The Empire is keeping the Aldmeri Dominion out of Skyrim. Because Skyrim is part of the Empire the Dominion can't take it for their own like they want. If they leave the Empire, however, I'd give it a couple of months before they are invaded by the Dominion and at that point there is no hope of them winning that war.

Speaking of invaders: The Imperials are not invaders. In the first sentence of your last paragraph in your first post you asked if invading Skyrim and killing the Rebels is really going to help when the Dominion comes. Considering Skyrim is part of the empire, they are not invading. They even had open relations for well over an Era. To answer that question, look no further than the end of my last paragraph. Going to your second post, the Empire is not willing to tear Skyrim apart to obtain it because it is already part of the Empire. The split is mostly among the Nords, truth be told. It's mostly between those who are angry and are going to fight off of those base emotions and those who have the foresight to see the benefits of remaining with the Empire.

In the end, Stormcloaks are just angry. No one can really blame them for that. At base level it even appears as though the Empire abandoned them by falling to the Aldmeri Dominion's demands and banning the worship of Talos. When it comes right down to it, however, you cannot ban a religion. People will practice what they want no mater what you do. Even Queen Elisif still had strong ties and loyalties to Talos, as shown when she asks you to take an amulet of Talso to her husbands tomb as a "secret" way of preying to Talos to keep her husband safe in the afterlife. I know it is not the strong suit of most Nords, but they just need to be patient. Further weakening the Empire will only delay the war against the Dominion.

I was hoping I'd see less "Skyrim is for the Nords," but I see now that I need to address this this topic directly. This mindset will bite them in the but eventually. I've touched on this subject in my first post, so I will not cover that again. What I will say is to compare this to a real world scenario. It's easy to detach these types of situation because they take place in a fantasy world, but many of the principles are still the same. Imagine if Australia's government decided that "Australia is for Australians" and kicked out anyone who was an Australian by blood and birth. That would not go over well. Well established governments that are already intertwined with other governments cannot decided to just close their borders like that. I know that isn't the perfect analogy nor is that a perfect representation of that saying, but to those of you say I'm not even close, I say to you "Wake up and smell the blood in the air." Just listen to (or look up) Argonian and Dunmer dialogue in Windhelm.

I'm not saying the Empire is perfect (far from), but it's better than the alternative. I also realize now how much of a die hard Imperial I sound like, so let me clarify something for everyone: I do not like choosing either side. I play as an Argonian who doesn't care about Nord politics. I avoid the war quest line until I've done all of the factional quests to their fullest extent and all main quests in each hold and only when I feel utterly starved for a well connected set of quests will I begin this quest line.

 

[Windsock]

I just figure that, since it's primarily a Nordic myth, he's trained by a bunch of Nordic monks, and its quite likely the pc popping up when alduin (a Nordic doomsday legend) does, it can't be a coincidence.

What sort of prophecy goes "nord, nord, nord, imperial"? It'd be funny, but doomsday prophecies aren't meant to be funny.

Skyrim is for the nords.

 

[Shog]

I just figure that, since it's primarily a Nordic myth, he's trained by a bunch of Nordic monks, and its quite likely the pc popping up when alduin (a Nordic doomsday legend) does, it can't be a coincidence.

What sort of prophecy goes "nord, nord, nord, imperial"? It'd be funny, but doomsday prophecies aren't meant to be funny.

Skyrim is for the nords.

I don't want to play the pronoun game. Who is "he?" The only real Nordic monks would be the Grey Beards. If your talking about Talos, then no. Talos was a Dragonborn Emperor who the Nords believe ascended to Godhood. I also can't decipher "pc popping up" and the "context" around it.

 

[M.J. Saulnier]

Shog

There is no culture more expansionist than Cyrodiil. It's evident going back before the Septim era. I mean read a book, or examine a plot in the games, Cyrodiil is usually got it's pecker stuck somewhere it doesn't belong, and yes, certain parties will support them, but that doesn't mean their presence is doing no harm and should be.

What's the alternative? We should have Septims waging actual wars with everyone in additon to Thalmor, because the Thalmor exist?

Also you are wrong. I said actively* trying. If you know your lore at all, it's more then safe to say Cyrodiil has been more active on the military front, just in the Septim era, than Aldmari Dominion has been. The Dominion are that much smarter, that much more patient, tactical and logical about it. They aren't grinding their numbers down on inferior races, killing most of their good slaves... Actively* as in, balls deep in Skyrim, had invaded Morrowind. They are always the unwanted thorn in someone's side. The "We must rule EVERYTHING, because we are destined to. We make everything the best it can be, whether it knows it yet or not! " mentality is the thing about the empire I can't stand. A bit of peace for an era at the cost of a destroyed nation, and countless lives, is no peace at all. War in ancient times was nothing like today folks... Maybe if Emperors were more tolerant of cultures and spiritual practices, you could be more plucky about it.

Yes, Thalmor are the worst, yes they want the world too, but every time you turn around in the games, the Thalmor don't have cities in foreign lands, and people aren't lamenting about their presence, and crying because the High Elves destroyed their culture and religion.

Also, Argonians have been going at it with slavers and resisting slavery since forever, so that's arguable. Argonians are massively misunderstood, and I really hope we get a game set in Black Marsh soon to fix that. Not to suggest you don't understand Argonians, just taking advantage of an opportunity to bring it up. I find Argonians are massively undervalued in the ES community. I know tons of people use them, I know they are renowned for making excellent thief builds, but have you spoken to Argonian players? Most I know don't really know anything about them. They picked them for a thief build, water breathing, resistances, or they though they looked cool. They are 1 of my favorite races in ES due to how intelligent and unique they are. On average the Argonian is capable, but passive. They just want to be left alone for the most part.

 

[Shog]

M.J. Saulnier
The Septim era, in my experience, is just about as far back as people usually care about. Now my lore knowledge is by no means perfect and is very specialized in Argonians, but I still know my fair share. For example, the reason we don't see Thalmor settlements everywhere is because they did not even rise to power until after the Oblivion Crisis. Well, more accurately they rose to power in the Summerset Isles during the crisis, but they did not start expanding until after the crisis was over. That leaves a total of one game to demonstrate their power, and it does not happen because it takes place in Skyrim. The Dominion has taken power and authority in Valenwood and Elsweyr and are attempting to do the same in Hammerfell. They cannot do the same in Skyrim because it is part of the Empire.

The Empire, I believe, is more open minded than you give them credit for. Yes they want to claim as much land under the Empire as possible, but that isn't as big as often portrayed. They gave up the entire province of Hammerfell to let them continue fighting the Dominion without breaking the Concordant. They modified their entire religion to be more conducive to the Nords. They really don't care what your customs are so long as you remain part of and due your duty to the Empire. The only reason people aren't complaining about High Elves destroying their culture is because their method of domination is genious, to a point. They did not demand the Empire to be disbanded when the Concordant was written so that when they demand changes the Empire has to enforce, they see it as the Empire destroying their way of life. If the Empire cared about the worship of Talos then they would have tried to ban it long ago.

Say what about the subjectiveness of the word "peace," but I don't know any one that would consider close to 1/4 of modern history void of major inter-racial conflicts peace regardless of how it was achieved. In all honesty, saying it's not peace because there was a war beforehand is a fairly faulty view. By that logic there was no peace after World War 2 because people died to achieve it. I'm not saying there weren't still conflicts after the war, but most everyone experienced what could easily be considered peace.

I'm not sure what you're saying is arguable about my statement about Argonians. The only thing I said about them exclusively is that they're solitary, which you only confirmed in your last sentence. Other than that the only other time I even mentioned them in any argumentative form was in relation to their dialogue in Windhelm. Don't get me wrong: I love the Argonains and most of my lore knowledge is centered around them. I don't even care about the builds made around the race. I have never spoken with an Argonian main and known it before. Also, you can explore Black Marsh in ESO. While not centered around it, it has revealed more about the Argonian ways to more people.

Though our debate it has become more and more clear that we share many viewpoints. Our outlook from these is just different. I know my arguments make me look like an Empire lover, but I'm not. I do not like the Empire and agree that a major change in how the provinces relate to each other is needed. A great example of why is how the Nords got shafted because the Empire lost a war that didn't take place in Skyrim at all. The same could be said for just about any race in the Empire. The Redguards of Hammerfell basically got kicked out of the Empire after the Great War (so they could continue fighting, but losing that connection is still a devastating loss). I just believe that the Aldmeri Dominion is a greater threat that needs to be taken care of first, mostly because "The Dominion are that much smarter, that much more patient, tactical and logical about it." I will also restate that if the Stormcloaks win, then the Dominion is free to march into Skyrim and take it for their own. That is not only bad for Skyrim, but also means they will have a harder time revolting against the Dominion when the time comes, having been under their control. I personally believe that if the Stormcloaks lose that the Dominion will be taken down faster. After all of that, then it would be an appropriate time for other Provinces to leave the Empire. Enough people will be pissed at them to do so and the Empire will have suffered from more war than any other Province that they won't have much of a choice.

Just a side note regarding my last post: I was wrong in my saying Black Marsh is still part of the Empire. I'm not sure when, but they left the Empire and have even claimed land in Morrowind.

 

[Windsock]

I don't want to play the pronoun game. Who is "he?" The only real Nordic monks would be the Grey Beards. If your talking about Talos, then no. Talos was a Dragonborn Emperor who the Nords believe ascended to Godhood. I also can't decipher "pc popping up" and the "context" around it.

I meant 'he' as in the Dragonborn, the person we play as in skyrim? Yeah, that one.

Aside, I just thought since he's prowling around precisely when the world-eater, alduin, is also prowling about skyrim at large, is no coincidence. You can distill the main quest of Skyrim as; "Dragonborn, who doesn't know he's dragonborn yet, goes to the land of the nords for some reason. He gets attacked by Alduin the world-eater, who's a big important figure in nordic myth. He eventually figures out he's dragonborn, which is a big nordic thing, and he goes to train with the greybeards, who are a bunch of nords who help out the dragonborn's type when they come around. He learns more about the power of the thu'um, a nordic thing, and uses it to kick alduin's ass, who retreats to the nordic version of the afterlife to eat nord souls to heal himself and whatnot. Dragonborn hitches a ride to the nordic afterlife and kicks alduin's ass once more with the help of three nordic heroes."

The Dragonborn is destined to do a lot of nordic shit, with the help of other nords at that, since we can safely assume the Dragonborn does the main quest in canon. In my mind, after the main quest is over and he does something about the big civil war in skyrim, it's likely a part of his destiny to continue doing the nord-y thing, which is helping the stormcloaks. Who are nords.

 

[Lunar]

Once a milkdrinker, always a milkdrinker

 

[eowarion]

Kill both sides. Skyrim is now for the Dragonborn.

 

[Atraxaisbae]

Atraxa.

 

[Shog]

I meant 'he' as in the Dragonborn, the person we play as in skyrim? Yeah, that one.

Aside, I just thought since he's prowling around precisely when the world-eater, alduin, is also prowling about skyrim at large, is no coincidence. You can distill the main quest of Skyrim as; "Dragonborn, who doesn't know he's dragonborn yet, goes to the land of the nords for some reason. He gets attacked by Alduin the world-eater, who's a big important figure in nordic myth. He eventually figures out he's dragonborn, which is a big nordic thing, and he goes to train with the greybeards, who are a bunch of nords who help out the dragonborn's type when they come around. He learns more about the power of the thu'um, a nordic thing, and uses it to kick alduin's ass, who retreats to the nordic version of the afterlife to eat nord souls to heal himself and whatnot. Dragonborn hitches a ride to the nordic afterlife and kicks alduin's ass once more with the help of three nordic heroes."

The Dragonborn is destined to do a lot of nordic shit, with the help of other nords at that, since we can safely assume the Dragonborn does the main quest in canon. In my mind, after the main quest is over and he does something about the big civil war in skyrim, it's likely a part of his destiny to continue doing the nord-y thing, which is helping the stormcloaks. Who are nords.

I'm trying to keep an open mind here, but that's a bit of a jump in logic. You are 100% correct that it is no coincidence that the dragonborn appears with the return of Alduin, but the timing of his arrival is independent of the war. His is in Helgen when Alduin shows up (mind you, Alduin was no specifically after you at the time) to stop the execution to keep the war going so more souls enter Sovernguard to further his power. There is no doubt in my mind that Alduin would have immediately targeted you at the beginning of the game had he known who you were.

Regardless, I'm off track. All of this "nordic shit" he's destined to do is because the dragon threat appears in Skyrim and is centered around their culture. After Alduin is dead, you aren't "destined" to do anything. Realistically, you could build your house in Falkreath and live out the rest of your days as a peaceful hunter. Even more realistically, you could leave Skyrim behind and ignore the Civil War all together. Let's say, for just a moment, that you followed Imperial culture through the majority of the main quest. Would you still side with the Stormcloaks? If your answer is no then I would not want to live in Tamriel with you as the Dragonborn because you make these decisions that effect a great number of people on the whim of "this feels right" as opposed to looking at the impacts your decisions cause.

I'm also biased, being an Argonian. I also admit to being to involved with the lore here, but it entertains me. Regardless, M.J. Saulnier satisfied my desire to hear an intelligent argument for the Stormcloaks. It honestly only strengthened my position in my mind, but at least I can stop associating all pro-Stormcloaks as the toxic butts I see most often.

 

[Windsock]

I'm trying to keep an open mind here, but that's a bit of a jump in logic. You are 100% correct that it is no coincidence that the dragonborn appears with the return of Alduin, but the timing of his arrival is independent of the war. His is in Helgen when Alduin shows up (mind you, Alduin was no specifically after you at the time) to stop the execution to keep the war going so more souls enter Sovernguard to further his power. There is no doubt in my mind that Alduin would have immediately targeted you at the beginning of the game had he known who you were.

Regardless, I'm off track. All of this "nordic shit" he's destined to do is because the dragon threat appears in Skyrim and is centered around their culture. After Alduin is dead, you aren't "destined" to do anything. Realistically, you could build your house in Falkreath and live out the rest of your days as a peaceful hunter. Even more realistically, you could leave Skyrim behind and ignore the Civil War all together. Let's say, for just a moment, that you followed Imperial culture through the majority of the main quest. Would you still side with the Stormcloaks? If your answer is no then I would not want to live in Tamriel with you as the Dragonborn because you make these decisions that effect a great number of people on the whim of "this feels right" as opposed to looking at the impacts your decisions cause.

I'm also biased, being an Argonian. I also admit to being to involved with the lore here, but it entertains me. Regardless, M.J. Saulnier satisfied my desire to hear an intelligent argument for the Stormcloaks. It honestly only strengthened my position in my mind, but at least I can stop associating all pro-Stormcloaks as the toxic butts I see most often.

Hey, I'm not toxic! I'm corrosive, get it right.

 

[M.J. Saulnier]

Well Shog when you really step back and examine the larger picture, The Empire is working for Aldmari. The White Gold Concordat was exactly what the Thalmor wanted. They now have time to sit back and watch the ever predictable Cyrodiil weaken all of Tamriel for them, grinding themselves and Skyrim down. Two key regions that, if taken in the wake of the Skyrim Civil War, will ensure Thalmor dominance.

Regardless of all the bells and whistles you tack onto it, Cyrodiil's actions in Skyrim are counterproductive and only serving the Thalmor agenda. "Any fool" can see that. No matter how you personally spin it, we stand a better chance against the High Elves if Skyrim & Cyrodiil are side-by-side, at 100%, not in post-war conditions. BUT, as I said from the very beginning, the Septims are all about power.

 

[Natealie]

My opinion was always that politics can be dealt with after we stop the long dead dragons from destroying the world.

 

[Shog]

Hey, I'm not toxic! I'm corrosive, get it right.

I'm sorry that's the way my message came across. I was not trying to call you toxic. I was mostly refering to any arguement on the subject that can be found on YouTube or the forums I read previously.

Well Shog when you really step back and examine the larger picture, The Empire is working for Aldmari. The White Gold Concordat was exactly what the Thalmor wanted. They now have time to sit back and watch the ever predictable Cyrodiil weaken all of Tamriel for them, grinding themselves and Skyrim down. Two key regions that, if taken in the wake of the Skyrim Civil War, will ensure Thalmor dominance.

Regardless of all the bells and whistles you tack onto it, Cyrodiil's actions in Skyrim are counterproductive and only serving the Thalmor agenda. "Any fool" can see that. No matter how you personally spin it, we stand a better chance against the High Elves if Skyrim & Cyrodiil are side-by-side, at 100%, not in post-war conditions. BUT, as I said from the very beginning, the Septims are all about power.

I agree with you with that 95%. I just don't believe they will be able to become buddy buddy enough to fight off the Thalmor together before it is too late. We all know the Thalmor are trying to enforce their will through the Concordant, but the Empire isn't cluelessly playing along. They are doing everything they can to fight of the Thalmor without breaking the terms of the Concordant and starting a second Great War. Part of this is helping to ensure that Skyrim remains in the Empire and out of Thalmor hands. We shouldn't pretend this is a noble act of protecting Skyrim from the Thalmor as we all know they just want Skyrim and the Nord warriors to fight on their side when the time comes. It just also remains beneficial for Skyrim as well. It will still take at least a few lifetimes before the rift between the Imperials and Nords is mended no matter who wins, but at least this way Skyrim won't be invaded by the Dominion and the Thalmor's reach over Tamriel won't be as strong. Also the Septim dynasty ended. For a couple of emperors now the Mede's have been in control. In the end, this is how I see it: Neither side is good. They are both power hungry and looking for a presence all across Tamriel. The difference is that the Thalmor will enforce a harsher will based on their "eleven superiority" and have the foresight to be a more dangerous opponent. This should make them the primary target. After that, I doubt the Empire would have enough influence just about anywhere to enforce the rule of the Emporer.

At this point we are performing an exercise of futility. I believe we have reached a total stand off where the biggest difference comes from our base outlook on the world and the out come of our actions. As stated earlier, you have satisfied my curiosity. I will continue to read this thread (despite the fact that most people here decided to add irrelevant and overall unhelpful posts here) and not reply. Unless I see something I disagree with too much to ignore or something is posted that is just too conupfusing to leave unclear.

My opinion was always that politics can be dealt with after we stop the long dead dragons from destroying the world.

I agree, but that doesn't really add anything to the discussion here. The dragon crisis is separate from the Civil War (the topic of this thread).

 

[M.J. Saulnier]

I'd like just for once to get solid argument on why the Stormcloaks are bad. I feel the nature of Cyrodiil, Septim or Mede's who crept into the throne in the wake of the Septims, is evident, objectively speaking when you examine available information, although they are not some primordial evil, just power hungry and expansionist. Any "Empire" is by default.

You never get a good reasoning as to why the Stormcloaks are bad, other than the classic 'They are rebels. Ulfric killed the High King." The Nords are defending their land, people, way of life, and dignity, nothing more. Yet they always seem to get a the short end of the stick.

I don't know where anyone is from, specifics aren't relevant, but wherever you're from, picture some strange, foreign presence came to your country with their armies and started taking over territory, jocking for power, converting portions of your country to their side and preparing them to kill more of you. They demand you just give up, surrender, become part of them. They say, "It's for your own good. It's just better this way. We'll kill anyone who resists, and you have to adopt our laws and beliefs, meaning any spiritual practices and religious beliefs you had prior to our invasion, will be outlawed and punishable by imprisonment. This may be hard, but we know best, period. Our presence here and your way of life being slowly assimilated will be worth every last man and woman who dies for it."

Would you not be kinda, I dunno.. pissed off?

The majority of Nords are pissed off about the principal and approach. They would have no problem working with a more reasonable, respectful and humble ally. Jarls all over Skyrim prove that by joining Cyrodiil, of all nations. You think Ulfric wouldn't work with a noble ally if and when the High Elf threat becomes eminent? Maybe no one helped Cyrodiil because they just wanted them out of the way. They have a long history of bad mojo.