Other She's looking for inspiration (regarding group rps)

Blink

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So, I think I've fallen into an apathetic funk again. I've always butted heads with the predominating mentality of game-mastering purported by... group roleplay culture overall, really. But I was discussing ideas with a friend yesterday and discovered a void in terms of the games I participate in, or consider participating in.

My friend's method of game-mastering involves a foremost consideration of universal ideas and messages; he's very much in-tune with what each one of his "NPCs" — otherwise, the characters that hold dominance over the player-driven cast — means on that thematic level. In his case, exploring relationships between groups A and B is his main priority while insinuating social commentary regarding how quickly we as humans come to exemplify bigotry, the latter which is done through the typical mechanics, background info, etc. In my case, since I'm also developing a roleplay of my own on a different site (which is half of why I don't just whip up something here), I want to focus on exploring themes of initiative in terms of honest self-expression — having the balls to come out from behind a mask — and artistic integrity versus the demands of market appeal. These ideas will be introduced by my characters, a panel of pretentious performance judges and the host of their broadcast talent show, and accentuated by story events concerning the degradation of their favored art form in the public eye, such which the show is intended to rectify. This is the other reason why I'm not being the change I want to see — I can't stretch myself that far; I have a lot of ambition rested on this idea —, that and I feel I've bitterly caged myself into overlooking examples of meaningful roleplays that are right under my nose.

"Meaningful" to me is indicative of a game master's willingness to take a literary approach, to explore and evaluate themes and ideas, and to apply mechanics self-expressively rather than out of necessity. "Meaningful" and "detailed" or "intricate" aren't synonymous in my opinion. A faux-Harry Potter anime fantasy high school roleplay could be meaningful simply by addressing the ingenious escapism of the subject matter similarly to J. K. Rowling's original novels. (Each book started out in the real world for a reason!)

Authors can craft every element of a story to induce a narrative, many of which game masters don't have access to, including a leading cast. However, I think the latter can work with what they do have to give the impression that everything is intentional. It gives the players more to reflect on; it gives more worth to the actual writing.

In my experience, there's a lot of talk of world-building pretty much everywhere and mechanics in terms of player incentives are catching on in places, as they rightfully should. But as important and fun as a substantial setting and game elements are in a lot of instances, that's not enough on its own to motivate me as a writer. Anyone can "lore"; not everyone can engage with that lore, y'know? And lore can be inspired by events but that doesn't make for an "inspired" roleplay overall if there's not a purpose to why X is Y other than, "It makes sense in literal context for there to be five kingdoms."

So to address my "bitterness" and "apathy," I wanted to make a thread here to express — hopefully effectively through all those words — what I want to see and maybe get some recommendations, like what roleplays taking those strides that have I impassively passed off. And since I already indulged with my friend and I's ideas, what themes would you like to see explored in roleplays? If you could apply some universal concepts to any games you're running or participating in now, whether they capitalize on them mechanically or not, what would they be?

My only intention is for this to become a more constructive discussion thread than a flood of isolated, self-indulgent responses. If you disagree with taking a literary approach to roleplaying, it'd be on me to disrespect that (don't let anyone tell you your opinion doesn't matter), and any rebuttal should address my overarching argument as it stands rather than enter a separate diatribe, I suppose to make the "shadow version" of my paragraphs above.

And I apologize for condescending, but I do want to retrieve something from this thread. It helps to write my perspective out, at least.
 
Universal concepts?

Player Agency above all. As a GM I have things go on in my world, and it's up to the players to get help, stop things, or get out of the way of them. Basically the opposite of the railroad -- let the story go where it wants.

I would like to see more race, gender, and privilege explored in RPs. The RP I am running now is heavily entrenched in ideas of racism and distrust, and I hunger for strong female characters and NPCs to find a place in the game. Humans are crazy enough about race, but when you add that element to sci-fi or fantasy things can really get interesting!

Hope my two cents is welcome here... hope you find what you want! :D

-Beck
 
I've always viewed group role play as an exercise in entertainment, and as such I'd argue that a story doesn't have to be breaking new literary grounds to be of value to those involved. Each to their own in that regard.

When running an RP, I think it's important to recognise that while you can touch on certain themes included in the story, there is no guarantee that other players are going to enjoy it and therefore keep on engaging. Giving characters the freedom to do what they want - to RP - within a setting is essential, with the GM's role in my eyes being to steer the overall narrative rather than dictate it. Allow people to explore a theme on their own terms rather than shoving it in their faces and that tends to keep people interested.

In my experience an easy way to kill an RP is to become preoccupied with political grandstanding, be that about identity politics or whatever else is hot this season. Introduce a theme as a built in part of the setting, but don't be afraid to let it go if the characters don't delve into it. I guess your alternative is to be very clear about what you're aiming for when recruiting people, but the more preachy RPs have in my experience had trouble getting off the ground.

Just my two cents.
 
When running an RP, I think it's important to recognise that while you can touch on certain themes included in the story, there is no guarantee that other players are going to enjoy it and therefore keep on engaging. Giving characters the freedom to do what they want - to RP - within a setting is essential, with the GM's role in my eyes being to steer the overall narrative rather than dictate it. Allow people to explore a theme on their own terms rather than shoving it in their faces and that tends to keep people interested.

In my experience an easy way to kill an RP is to become preoccupied with political grandstanding, be that about identity politics or whatever else is hot this season. Introduce a theme as a built in part of the setting, but don't be afraid to let it go if the characters don't delve into it. I guess your alternative is to be very clear about what you're aiming for when recruiting people, but the more preachy RPs have in my experience had trouble getting off the ground.
Here's my main concern with this response: how can an open-ended idea be "preachy" in any context? The examples I gave in my first post aren't definitive; at most, they're versus statements that inquire debate. A theme doesn't make a definitive statement. I feel you've consumed my argument without proper understanding of what a universal idea entails, and that's given you this impression that concepts are limited. If you were asked, "What are your thoughts on gay marriage?" would you feel limited in terms of response? Perhaps the nature of your environment would pressure a positive or negative response, but if you existed in a void where outside influence was null and the question came from some ambivalent, omnipresent source, I doubt you would feel restraint. It's just a question.

That's essentially what a theme is: an inquiry, a prompt, never a statement. Parenthood, power, the influence of media: these are all themes as well, and they're meant to be explored. Frankly, your mention of "grandstanding" roleplays forcing morals on players is irrelevant here.

I don't want to throw dictionary definitions or anything at you, but I feel your perspective comes from a misunderstanding of what a "theme" truly is. It's not inherently political, it's literary.
Player Agency above all. As a GM I have things go on in my world, and it's up to the players to get help, stop things, or get out of the way of them. Basically the opposite of the railroad -- let the story go where it wants.

I would like to see more race, gender, and privilege explored in RPs. The RP I am running now is heavily entrenched in ideas of racism and distrust, and I hunger for strong female characters and NPCs to find a place in the game. Humans are crazy enough about race, but when you add that element to sci-fi or fantasy things can really get interesting!
Ironically, you seem passionate about certain themes cropping up, but then you give the impression that your roleplays are fully open-world and you don't want to get in the way of "player agency." ...this isn't this "themes are restrictive" idea cropping up again, isn't it? Honestly, it's misinformed.

Anyway, if you want to see ideas appear in your game, why not coax them to? My idea of applying themes was through any story-telling devices at a game master's disposal. If you have any characters crucial to the player cast, they can be subjects of that discrimination you referenced; they can be deliverers of that discrimination; they can be impassive towards the chaos occurring around them despite being a position where their word could be salient in shifting the situation. You can have a system where characters of a certain race have different arbitrary "cons" or are restricted from certain areas for under-explained reasons. Both of these could be tied directly into the setting, and I'm sure it would say much more to players that prejudice prevails in this universe if, rather than it being told to them, they were shown it and felt a firsthand impact.

I do see the benefits of those sprawling sandboxes that just give players free romping ground, and although this just be my experience from a site currently overexposed to them, but they don't really say anything. At least, in my opinion, they can't. They can only just... exist. When I see a roleplay with "backbone" — a common end objective; means of clear plot progression —, I know what I'm getting into is one packaged story, not multiple ones shoved under the same name. I'd even say, at that point, it's more restricting, tying players down to a roleplay as a base that isn't even collaborative. Just let them write their own novellas.

I think in concept it might sound limiting to make characters "follow," but in practice it's so much easier to write for! That's really what it comes down to! When you give me a blank slate and tell me to "write," I'm not going to have fun! I definitely can't speak for everyone who dedicates themselves to open-world roleplays, but I know that it should never be a debate of "fun and freedom" versus "restrictive detail." Referencing the "anime fantasy high school" roleplays once more, they're inherently going to be "trope-y" with their tournament arcs and all, but they can still be profound, as in they have a purpose for existing and the separate writers' means of writing coalesce into a sound conclusion with equally-sound leadership. It's indulgent fun, but it's also meaningful.

I... maybe went off — probably got up on a soapbox somewhere — but hopefully someone can scrounge some discussion material out of it all. Again, I'm pretty invested in this hobby because of how it's helped keep my passion for writing alive in the face of obstinate demotivation. Honestly, this could all just come from me wanting to find a roleplay I can read and feel some sense of accomplishment, like a good book.

I should express too that I'm not looking for overarching "solutions" to "bad roleplays." A roleplay that "isn't meaningful" obviously can only be interpreted as "unmeaningful" which has its own negative connotations, but I'm not giving "what not to dos," and I'm not expecting any in response. I see improvement as obtainable only by establishing standards first and striving to achieve them second. Beating someone down for their work is only effective on an emotional level; it doesn't spawn any preferred change. I think discussion threads regarding roleplays oftentimes devolve into this, plausibly because of the nature of the community, plausibly because of over-generalization of individual players culminating in overwrought expectations of what a "good roleplay" is and always has to be. As I see it, a roleplay can have certain rules; it can have certain standards of which to measure players and their sign-ups; it can have doc pages chock full of lore. But if a game master can't answer the question, "Why am I creating this thing in the first place?", without saying "Because this is what a 'good roleplay' looks like," or just, "I don't know, I guess it seemed cool," then, what the fuck. How much do you even care, and why expect anyone else to care just as much if not more?
 
Here's my main concern with this response: how can an open-ended idea be "preachy" in any context? The examples I gave in my first post aren't definitive; at most, they're versus statements that inquire debate. A theme doesn't make a definitive statement.

From what I can gather you're looking to view RP as a form of social commentary. You'd be surprised at how poorly I've seen this approached in the past. Just as railroading can be a problem with general narrative, GMs sometimes push the characters to respond to whatever theme they're setting in a predefined way while allowing little flexibility. An example might be pushing characters within a setting to campaign against slavery when the other players are more interested in other features of the world, that's what I mean by "preachy". It happens a lot with charged topics because the GM usually has some attachment to the issue, which invariably turns it into a shit show the moment someone doesn't agree.

I feel you've consumed my argument without proper understanding of what a universal idea entails, and that's given you this impression that concepts are limited. If you were asked, "What are your thoughts on gay marriage?" would you feel limited in terms of response? Perhaps the nature of your environment would pressure a positive or negative response, but if you existed in a void where outside influence was null and the question came from some ambivalent, omnipresent source, I doubt you would feel restraint. It's just a question.

That's essentially what a theme is: an inquiry, a prompt, never a statement. Parenthood, power, the influence of media: these are all themes as well, and they're meant to be explored. Frankly, your mention of "grandstanding" roleplays forcing morals on players is irrelevant here.

I don't want to throw dictionary definitions or anything at you, but I feel your perspective comes from a misunderstanding of what a "theme" truly is. It's not inherently political, it's literary.

I'm not particularly interested in arguing semantics here. A theme doesn't have to be political, but certainly can be. It's those more political themes that tend to be difficult to get anything productive from, and to that end I was somewhat addressing Beckoncall's comments.

While you accuse me of misunderstanding your argument, I admit that I don't really see much of an argument here. What you've written is verbose in the extreme but from what I can gather your idea of "meaningful" RP requires some sort of almost philosophical work around a topic or theme. My point is that in my view becoming preoccupied with having an intellectual motive is often detrimental to others' enjoyment.
 
AndR01D AndR01D
"Verbose in the extreme," he says. A fantastic roast from someone who can't tell the difference between poor conveyance of an idea and an idea in itself.

Again, "universal idea" is a literary concept. This is explained well here in something I found after a ten-second search.

Beckoncall's exemplified ideas were politically-charged, but not all themes are; that's the gist of it.

If you've had poor experience with people lacking subtly with their writing in the past, I'm sure there's a point of potential discussion there, but I don't think it belongs in this thread; that's more about proper literary conveyance. The purpose of this thread is to discuss how themes can be used as a tool of guidance for game-mastering to create engaging roleplays. If you believe that's detrimental to the enjoyment of others, or even just yourself, we'll leave it at that.
 
"Blink said:

Honestly, this could all just come from me wanting to find a roleplay I can read and feel some sense of accomplishment, like a good book."

If you want to see what I think is a good example of a sandbox roleplay, check out "Lost Continent: Flight from Muurdaan." -- It's 28 pages IC and 78 OOC already and that's not counting PMs. I really think it's an example where plot being evident but focus and propulsion being secondary to player agency actually works. I'm quite proud of it. :D
 
I like to keep impartial so I won't recommend any roleplays that have what you're looking for. Take a look through the different roleplay-thread genres --> https://www.rpnation.com/categories/roleplays.5/

I don't know how you should even start looking as it's extremely difficult sorting through all of that, but I have tips and stereotypical advice to make it easier. What you speak of in this topic is pretty intensive and detailed stuff, so "simple" and "casual" RPs won't have it.

1) It's easy to check the start date of RPs. Compare when it started to where it is now. Also take a look at the "In Character Thread" post number. If the RP hasn't been open long, but has a boat-ton of In Character Thread posts, it's likely not detailed or has this conceptual depth you're looking for. There's just no way. Set-up and linkages like that by the GM take time. Throw in players who do that too? Close to zero chance you'll see a high # of posts in a short amount of time.

2) Take a look at there lore. If you find an RP who's "Open time" to "In Character Reply ratio" looks good, look at the lore. If it's thin, the GM likely has no idea what they're going to do with the RP. Likely they are looking for the player to drive things/pitch in ideas/direct the course of the RP themselves. This is not a bad thing - it likely won't have what you're looking for in this topic. Fill-In-As-You-Go RPs can attempt to have a significant theme, but it will likely come out looking choppy and disjointed when you take a step back.

2.1) If you see an extreme amount of lore, THAT is the RP you're looking for to find this coherent thematic meaning. Best place to search. And there are RPs like that out there. Not many, as it's a time/energy-eater for a GM, but there are a few. However, there is a caveat. I agree with something AndR01D said. What you speak of in the topic sounds really nice, something I'd like to roleplay in myself, but theory & idea =/= reality. The reality is an RP like that is unwieldy. Seriously so. Some may disagree with me (but I don't see how). Creating it is the easy part. Writing it down and organizing it is the easy part. The actual practice of running an RP like it is what'll tear things apart. The GM has to be really organized, literary-ly adaptable, and reasonably fast in replying to both questions and In-Character posts. This is not something you can leave to players. It's like the person who wants to be a millionaire, run a successful business and have a great marriage with superstar kids...it sounds nice, but that's really hard when you actually try it, lol.

Though I definitely see what you mean overall. If you think you can do it, go for it. If you find an RP like that, support it. Two themes I have a fascination for are "What Are Your Limits?" and "Who Are You Really?"

The former exploring how truly monstrous adversity either pushes a person forward to unparalleled heights, or breaks them to lowest depths. The latter exploring what a person does when faced with choices they can't go back from. The struggle between who you really are vs. what you perceive/want to be. Nothing else would intrigue me as much as those two. Maaaaybe people of different backgrounds learning about each other/banding together to combat a threat that harms them all. I've always been a sucker for across-the-lines friendships.
 

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