Dice Rifts Adventure OOC

[Silanon]

The problem isn't them being higher, the problem is the degree of them being higher, that anything that threathens or challenges you could instantly kill me.

I completely agree, Mirgris - your survivability is an issue. It's fine to a certain degree since the automatons and Eron will happily try to take most of the damage, but that won't always work, and then you're potentially in trouble. I see that, no worries - still, thanks for throwing the numbers together, helps to see the math! What I meant to say: My own rolls where average, too (no high rolls), it's mostly the additional stats of the TW crazy plus martial arts and physical skills that got me up there, and maxing PP as my most important attribute, where you're intelligence-focused for good reasons. The technowizard doesn't get the additional attibutes if I recall correctly, and can't pick up all the skills because there's other stuff you want to use, too. That's where the gap comes from. You get advantages in other areas for it, of course, the utility alone is something else. But it leaves you vulnerable. That's all I meant to say, I think.

It is, but it's nothing we can't handle. It's much better than (pardon my saying it) having to deal with Character Alignment issues. Remember those? I'd much rather have these (mathematical balance-based) issue. This is just a matter of fine tuning. =)

Don't remind me of those... good thing we're past that. I very much prefer half a page of discussion with a definitive answer in the end (18? 24? 30?) over those problems. Numbers are just a few quick adjustments, alignments can't just be fixed like that.

 

[Mirgris]

I don't it's quite that bad a situation. As with my first assessment (my first post when you asked what we thought), I think your character isn't in serious danger unless he's caught alone or the victim of some seriously-bad dice rolls. Plus, Sherwood's already on this so fixes are in the works. Those are good things. =)

I also think it's something of a mistake to compare a brand-new Character to one that's been around (especially in the hands of a veteran Palladium PC and GM). Your Character will "git gud" as time goes on, no doubt. Sherwood isn't shy when it comes to treasure, but nor is he a Monty Hauler. =)

Well, I edited in the math, using a d20 If the chance to hit Silanon is 20%, the chance to hit me is 75%.

That's a pretty massive difference, given an opponent that needed to roll a 16 or better, would be considered low threat anyway.

So lets say 13 or better for a mook, thats a 35% chance to hit silanon and the same enemy has a 90% chance to hit me

That is probably to much of a discrepancy, granted I think they have the best dodge chance, so that may be a little unfair of a comparison.

But needless to say +4 dodge wasn't really acceptable while at the same time having the lowest MDC in the party.

Uh, I think that depends! If you craft, say, 6 P.P.E. batteries (just to throw a useful item out there), then why not include your own Character in getting what he makes? Ours is a Good-aligned party and I can imagine us saying something to that effect in-game. =)

Because I don't care about combat besides being relatively useful, making thematic cool shit for others, is more interesting. I don't need more/better gear. (Well not after the PM one sent, we will see what Sherwood says)

I completely agree, Mirgris - your survivability is an issue. It's fine to a certain degree since the automatons and Eron will happily try to take most of the damage, but that won't always work, and then you're potentially in trouble. I see that, no worries - still, thanks for throwing the numbers together, helps to see the math! What I meant to say: My own rolls where average, too (no high rolls), it's mostly the additional stats of the TW crazy plus martial arts and physical skills that got me up there, and maxing PP as my most important attribute, where you're intelligence-focused for good reasons. The technowizard doesn't get the additional attibutes if I recall correctly, and can't pick up all the skills because there's other stuff you want to use, too. That's where the gap comes from. You get advantages in other areas for it, of course, the utility alone is something else. But it leaves you vulnerable. That's all I meant to say, I think.

Yeah I put together a stealth item that boosts my dodge and attack while hidden, it has several counters, and gives a +5 to dodge, and strike, which should be enough with my knives, and better martial arts style.

While I could be close to your guys level, it will cost me quite a bit of PPE, and is limited and counter-able, so while I can be relevant It's clear I'm not the expert you guys are.

I think that is a good compromise and should make everyone happy.

 

[Purr]

I dunno. From what I've seen from rifts so far, BDSM would probably fit in without anybody noticing much difference. It already has everything and the kitchen sink.

Oh, haven't you heard, D.? You CAN play the Kitchen Sink! It's a new Racial Character Class, kind of like a Dungeons & Dragons Killer Mimic, except it only dwells in kitchens and junkyards! Just kidding. Wouldn't that be something? =)

But needless to say +4 dodge wasn't really acceptable while at the same time having the lowest MDC in the party.

Yes! Precisely my point when you initially asked what we thought. As a non-combat character, your doctor is terrific! In the field? Well, maybe he could make an item that would let him temporarily gain Piloting Skills and he could pilot one of these mechanical beasts the Were-jaguar clan are holding? I mean, stick anybody in a suit of power armor or a mech and watch their survivability jump up a few notches, right? =)

While I could be close to your guys level, it will cost me quite a bit of PPE, and is limited and counter-able, so while I can be relevant It's clear I'm not the expert you guys are.

I think that is a good compromise and should make everyone happy.

Isn't your Character starting off at the same level as ours? Sherwood doesn't normally hold people back when they start (Sherwood and I have known each other for quite some time and we know how each other thinks).

As for being an expert, I'm sure you have expertise that I don't have (just speaking for myself). For example, one thing that was noticed when you first applied into this game was that you have been part of RP Nation for some 4 years or so, but have few posts for someone whose been here since 2016 (if I'm not mistaken)? I'm guessing you play 1-on-1s with others in Conversation or you've taken some long breaks? If that's the case, I've never played 1-on-1s on RP Nation and so you'd know more about that than me. My point - just about everyone knows something worthwhile. =)

 

[Purr]

(I am off for now. Stay safe and have fun!) =)

 

[Silanon]

Have a good night!

That is probably to much of a discrepancy, granted I think they have the best dodge chance, so that may be a little unfair of a comparison.

As you said, the crazy is all about dodging, so it's not the best comparison - but it's something to think about nonetheless. Keep in mind that I'll gladly throw myself at whatever can smash you too easily, and so will others. Best way to help with those numbers will be teamwork, and I think we'll have that covered. Plus, we're bringing enough threats that either run at them or need to be dealt with (boom gun for the win...) that they'll have a hard time actually targeting the technowizard, I feel. We'll see - I certainly like the idea of someone who's creating awesome stuff!

 

[Mirgris]

sn't your Character starting off at the same level as ours? Sherwood doesn't normally hold people back when they start (Sherwood and I have known each other for quite some time and we know how each other thinks).

As for being an expert, I'm sure you have expertise that I don't have (just speaking for myself). For example, one thing that was noticed when you first applied into this game was that you have been part of RP Nation for some 4 years or so, but have few posts for someone whose been here since 2016 (if I'm not mistaken)? I'm guessing you play 1-on-1s with others in Conversation or you've taken some long breaks? If that's the case, I've never played 1-on-1s on RP Nation and so you'd know more about that than me. My point - just about everyone knows something worthwhile. =)

I was being metaphorical.

I want to be strong enough to be relevant in combat, but weak enough that I don't outshine the combat specialists, and it's clear that I'm not the same threat level you guys are.

To do so I made an item that situationaly (stealth based) boosts me to your guys rough combat level, but costs a fair amount of PPE every turn, combined with the cost of my knives and gun, I can sort of fight on everyone elses threat level, but it's clear that it's limited and costing me.

I feel that should make everyone happy, I'm not instantly going to die, but I'm also not stealing spot light, and it's clear that I am weaker in that I am on a timer and can be countered the way "I have big numbers" normally can't.

Also I've been Rping on other sites and working on putting together something worth publishing, I check in here every so often but I tend to be kind of picky with games.

As you said, the crazy is all about dodging, so it's not the best comparison - but it's something to think about nonetheless. Keep in mind that I'll gladly throw myself at whatever can smash you too easily, and so will others. Best way to help with those numbers will be teamwork, and I think we'll have that covered. Plus, we're bringing enough threats that either run at them or need to be dealt with (boom gun for the win...) that they'll have a hard time actually targeting the technowizard, I feel. We'll see - I certainly like the idea of someone who's creating awesome stuff!

Yeah, I think with my currently submmited gear list, I'll be okay.

I mostly don't want to be bored and useless in combat, so I think it handles that well.

As for making gear, yeah I figured everyone would appreciate a crafter on demand.

The technowizard doesn't get the additional attibutes if I recall correctly, and can't pick up all the skills because there's other stuff you want to use, too. That's where the gap comes from. You get advantages in other areas for it, of course, the utility alone is something else. But it leaves you vulnerable. That's all I meant to say, I think.

You kind of hit the nail on the head here and let me illustrate why.

General Repair & Maintenance
Basic Mechanics

Mechanical Engineer
Electrical Engineer

Electricity Generation

Vehicle Armorer
Weapons Engineer

Robot Mechanics
Robot Electronics

Jury Rig

These are all different skills.
Look at the amount of fucking overlap.

The first two seem pointless, if I own the third and fourth (I do) but from the descriptions they aren't. The first one has a special rule that allows me to repair 1d6 of armor after every combat
I'm a mechanical and electrical engineer I need a repair skill to repair armor in the field? I can't repair things because I'm an engineer.

Fuck it okay I guess.

Electrical generation?
I have both mechanical and electrical engineering, as well as 3 different computer skills (Operation, programming and repair) but I can't make a wind turbine or install solar panels without yet another skill.

Weapon Engineer?
I already had Vehicle armorer, which lets me completely rebuild armor from the ground up, move compartments like the engine and completely redesign the vehicle, but mounting a gun is a new skill.

Whatever I took both.

Now I have electrical engineering, mechanical engineering, Vehicle armorer , ground vehicle maintenance and Weapons Engineer and 3 different fucking computer skills, but I can't work on drones or robots without spending yet more skills. Including drone vehicles

Then jury rig, is a skill to let me make something quickly, instead of something I can just do with me more than 20 mechanics based skills.

Also keep in mind, car mechanics was also another separate skill I needed.
And some of those skills required things like advanced math (which I did not get for free)


There is just massive layers and layers of weird redundancies and exceptions and skills that cost other skills, and skills that do nearly nothing but I might need.

So when every said "Just spend 4 on assassin and then about a dozen on physical skills to get into decent shape stat wise" I'm sure you can see why my response was

"Fuck I can cut like 3 maybe, if I really try"

(I'm probably going to trade my chemistry skills for robotics, because honestly robotics seems more relevant than the odds I'll specific need chemistry)

 

[Sherwood]

Wow. Lots of posts to sort through here. Let me see if I can't give some clarity of the main points.

It is in the book that a rolled attribute can hit 30 right out the gate if you max your die rolls on every step. You get an 18 on your first 3d6, then add another d6. If that one is a '6' also, then you add another d6 to be able to hit that magic 30.

With my ruling of a free maxed roll, that is entirely fine with me to take it on a attribute to hit that. Silanon I must apologize that I missed your attribute selection at only an 18. Despite being a awesome guy, I do on occasion miss stuff. If you have selected PP as your go to stat, it should be a 30.


Next, looking over the TW Crazy, I don't see that it has a Auto Dodge. I may have been thinking of the Juicer, which does have the Auto Dodge, so I'll have to take one of Eron's actions for your dodge.


A Techno-Wizard will never be a powerful front line fighter, but the items that Mirgris is starting out with will make him able to hold his own as a support fighter.

I'm sure I missed some stuff, but as it comes up, I'll try to address it.

 

[Purr]

So when every said "Just spend 4 on assassin and then about a dozen on physical skills to get into decent shape stat wise" I'm sure you can see why my response was

If I may offer a minor correction? I'm recommending you take Hand to Hand: Commando because it gives Automatic Dodge (for 3 Skills, I believe, or 2 if you already have Hand to Hand: Basic). Hand to Hand: Assassin doesn't.

That's pretty thoughtful for you to think that way and create a character like this, Mirgris. =)

With my ruling of a free maxed roll, that is entirely fine with me to take it on a attribute to hit that. @Silanon I must apologize that I missed your attribute selection at only an 18. Despite being a awesome guy, I do on occasion miss stuff. If you have selected PP as your go to stat, it should be a 30.

Thanks for clearing all this up, bud!

 

[Silanon]

Good thing I don't have auto-dodge with that bonus... Will adjust it later, thanks for clearing things up!

 

[Mirgris]

If I may offer a minor correction? I'm recommending you take Hand to Hand: Commando because it gives Automatic Dodge (for 3 Skills, I believe, or 2 if you already have Hand to Hand: Basic). Hand to Hand: Assassin doesn't.

That's pretty thoughtful for you to think that way and create a character like this, Mirgris. =)



Thanks for clearing all this up, bud!

Whats weird is the box apparently misprinted and quoted commando as expert and says it doesn't have a dodge but then in the per level things says it does.

Spoiler: Directly from book

So now I'm a bit annoyed at not having taken commando, but assassin gives more attacks, and more damage and eventually some gun bonuses. So unless you guys are hiding a gun martial art, I'll be keeping assassin for now. Even though that's a lot of dodge bonuses.

I'll see about taking boxing, having 7 attacks per round should be enough to manage not having auto dodge.


Also Items, including devices are done, I'll add in some more lore and details tonight and edit skills a bit and be done.

 

[Purr]

Mirgris Sherwood Except that I asked Sherwood about this over a year ago in one of the many games we've shared. "Does Hand to Hand: Commando provide Automatic Dodge at 1st level?" To which he replied that it did (so I kept it). Why would I think that it did? Simple.

Take a look at the table you posted (Rifts Ultimate Edition, Page 349). What does it say upon reaching 5th level advancement? "+2 to automatic dodge and all foot strikes." Confusing, isn't it?

See, the problem with Palladium rules is that its been around for 25+ years (O.K., closer to 40) and not all of the rules are clear. This has forced Game Masters like Sherwood, Psychie, and myself to make House Rules when things aren't clear. For example. That Boxing Skill you're thinking of taking? According to Combat Rules in Palladium, it only adds to melee attacks, not ranged. (palladiumbooks.com/combat-rules, #30 "Does the boxing skill add an attack at all times or just during melee that doesn't involve missile weapons?"). But they never said that back when Sherwood and I were playing so we've always added it.

Another example: Sherwood and I have been adding Physical Prowess bonuses to Ranged attacks for well over a decade. But what did we learn semi-recently when Rifts Ultimate Edition was released? "A Character's P.P. Bonuses (sic) do NOT count when shooting a gun." (Rifts Ultimate Edition, page 361 under Penalties.) Well, once again, they sure as heck didn't say that back when we were discovering Palladium, so we both add P.P. bonuses because it makes sense to us.

In the matter of Hand to Hand: Commando, this particular Skill has been up for interpretation for around for 15+ years. See one example written back in 2004 on their forums. Each Game Master has had to take yet another Palladium rule and make a decision on how it best fits her or his campaign, mine included. I'm sure they have a ruling about it now, but (speaking only for myself) I'm sticking to what I'm comfortable with.

But when in doubt, I honestly believe you can't go wrong asking the person who is running the game. So... Hey Sherwood? Does Hand to Hand: Commando provide Automatic Dodge at 1st level?

 

[Sherwood]

But when in doubt, I honestly believe you can't go wrong asking the person who is running the game. So... Hey Sherwood? Does Hand to Hand: Commando provide Automatic Dodge at 1st level?

Yes, you get the auto dodge at 1st level with Commando training.

 

[Psychie]

I need the auto dodge for my automations. They are about to get pounded in this upcoming match.

 

[Sherwood]

That would be a bit extreme, especially with how big and lumbering they are. You'll just have to survive without it.

 

[Psychie]

A girl can dream, can't she?

 

[Sherwood]

lol Keep on dreaming, my friend. It never hurts to do that.

 

[Purr]

First off...

Yes, you get the auto dodge at 1st level with Commando training.

Thanks, Sherwood! =)

I need the auto dodge for my automations. They are about to get pounded in this upcoming match.

That's O.K., Psychie ! I found a solution just for you! See, my Fox Spirit, Snowfall, practices Tai Chi Ch'uan, and see, he can teach your automatons how to be graceful and smooth and aware of their Chi and surroundings so that they can have Automatic Dodge too! They'll look just like this!

Spoiler: Tai Chi!

"Tai Chi with Helen Liang"

There's just ooooooone teensy little drawback.

The automatons brains aren't that big, are they? So... Let me do some basic math here. Per Ninjas & Superspies, the time it takes to learn Tai Chi Ch'uan (page 104) is... 15 years. And say, that's for an average person with an average I.Q., right? Say, I.Q. of 10? Your Automatons each have an I.Q. Attribute of about 0.001 so... they'll be able to have Automatic Dodge via Tai Chi training in about...

...15,000 years!

Um, give or take 100. You know. Water breaks and all.

Whaddya say, Sherwood ? Think it'll work?! Huh? Huh?! 8D

 

[Psychie]

I don't know who's worse; Dannigan or Sherwood!

 

[Purr]

Ha ha ha ha! 8D

 

[Sherwood]

I am offended.

I must up my game so that I am the most obnoxious person, the most sarcastic person, on this site!

 

[Psychie]

Don't you dare! You are bad enough as it is!

 

[Mirgris]

I need the auto dodge for my automations. They are about to get pounded in this upcoming match.

Actually I've been mentally working on a device that would be perfect for that. If you don't mind I'll use this as an example for everyone of building an item.


1. Determine the Form of the Device.
Armor modification

2. Determine the Functions of the Device:
It will cast Armor Ithan every round it is active giving a force-field that automatically replenishes some in combat
So lets say we trade some stats of the spell, making it last only 1/4th for times 4 total MDC spread out over the spell.

3. Determine How Many Spell Chains Will Be Necessary
This time just 1 Armor of Ithan it's just tweaking the spell to not give all the armor upfront but rather to keep giving it over the duration of the spell.
We could add fire or elemental reistance if we wanted by adding those spells to the spell chain, but since we are making three lets try to keep it cheap.


4. Determine the Required Gems.
A good rule of thumb is that the Primary Spell will require up to the Device Level (the level at which the device creates a spell effect, no higher than the creator's experience level), in half carats, of that particular type of gem, either as one large gem or several small gems used together for the single Primary Spell


Diamond: Armor of Ithan (10), Crushing Fist (12), Fly (15), Fly as the Eagle (25), Impenetrable Wall of Force (600), Invincible Armor (30), Invulnerability (25), Wall of Defense (55), Wards (90). Can also be used to store P.P.E. Cost: 15,000 credits per carat
Cost: 15,000 credits per carat.

15000*2.5= 37500

That's for 5th level version of 50 Armor


5. Determine the Base P.P.E. Construction Cost.
To do this, add together all the P.P.E. costs of the spells involved within this Spell Chain, and multiply the total by the Device Level xl0, and finally divide that total by the number of carats in the Primary Spell's required gem Determine the Base P.P.E. Construction Cost. To do this, add together all the P.P.E. costs of the spells involved within this Spell Chain, and multiply the total by the Device Level xl0, and finally divide that total by the number of carats in the Primary Spell's required gem

I'll be honest the main reason this matters is we could in theory spend a lot more credits to get an extremely low activation cost, and combined with an internal batter (which also costs money) we could make the duration longer.

But lets do that Math 10*50= 500
500/2.5=200


6. Determine the Activation Cost.
Activation Cost = P.P.E Construction Cost/20.
200/20= 10


7. Calculate the Construction Time.
The time needed to create the Techno-Wizard device, in hours, is equal to the P.P.E' Construction Cost, divided by 10, multiplied by the Device Level. Device Construction Time = P.P. E' Construction Cost /10 x Device Level.

200/10= 20
20*5=100 Hours

(Note you guys can lower this by 35% if you have skills relevant to what I'm working on)


8. Construction Cost of the Device.
Construction Cost = P.P.E Construction Cost x 10 x Device Level + the Cost of All Required Gems

200*10=2000
2000*5=10K
10K+37,500= 47.5k Credits

10. P.P.E. Storage.

A Techno-Wizard device can store extra P.P.E. for future Activation Costs if it has an Activation Charge. P.P.E. Storage inflicts a penalty of -1 % to the Device Construction Modifier, per point of P.P.E. the device can store, due to the extra complexity involved, and each P.P.E. point the Techno-Wizard wishes to store adds 1% to the P.P.E. Construction Cost. Moreover, if the device itself is able to store its own P.P.E., the device can be made to function even for a non-psychic/non-mage, if the Techno-Wizard wants it to, at no additional cost

Lets give it 1 charge per: So 10% increase in cost

47.5k Credits *1.1=52,250 Credits

FINISHED




Device: Ablative Force Field
Effect: Every Round the bearer of this Device Gains 40 MDC while it is active.
PPE Activation Cost: 10 PPE
Duration: 5 Rounds
Special: Stores 10 PPE or 1 charge of the effect
Device Level: 5
Construction Time: 100 Hours
Building Cost: 52,250 Credits


This would let your automatons gain 40 MDC per turn every turn while it's on. This isn't enough to really protect them, but the goal was that it will constantly whittle down damage that they take over time, protecting the much bigger pool of MDC they have from being chipped down by large numbers or extended fights.

We could also apply this to our own armors, or something like it.

The exact effect would be up to the GM but something we can do is rebuild to get closer to the effect we want.
(also it may be better, the GM can determine the random outcome favors us as much as it hurts us, or can just be odd or quirky)

So that's an example of building a device and an option that may protect your automatons in bigger gun fights.

 

[Mirgris]

Fuck it in a few days I'll make an excel sheet to do all the math

 

[Psychie]

I like the idea of a regenerative force field on my Automations. The spell can be made even cheaper by not worrying about the PPE battery in it, since each of the Automations have their own built-in PPE supply. Even if it is only 40 MD, every little bit helps!

 

[Mirgris]

I like the idea of a regenerative force field on my Automations. The spell can be made even cheaper by not worrying about the PPE battery in it, since each of the Automations have their own built-in PPE supply. Even if it is only 40 MD, every little bit helps!

Then that knocks it back down to 47.5k Credits each.

Do you/ the team have 150k credits laying around? (Which I realize isn't actually that much)
Also I'm level 7 about to hit 8, so if money isn't an issue we could make a stronger version, a longer lasting one, or both. (my own level caps the power of the spell since the device level is treated as caster level, and device level maxes at my level).

I mean 5 rounds seems fairly long, and we can tweak it, or add other effects like resisting energy damage better, or just upping the MDC by adding a second spell onto the chain like super strength.

Idk how you guys are doing for funds or how much you would want to invest.