Experiences MxM vs. FxF

[Shy2Infinity]

Yeah, my pairings tend to switch up for the most part I've done m/m, f/f (rarely), m/f, nb/m, nb/f. I don't ever really feel satisfied if I'm not doing something different. I've done more gay ships over time

 

[Raymond_of_Clubs]

Hey, thank you for this thread! I actually have some strong opinions about this.

Okay, so right off the bat, I'm a non-binary bisexual, and I do tend to play MxM significantly more often than FxF. I am yet to write an MxF story, which, due to years of awful toxic representation is a tough task... but that's a topic for another thread.

I believe women are often underrepresented or misrepresented in media, and historically have been done a great disservice. From timeless genre-forming classics such as Lord of the Rings and Star Wars, to long-running franchises like Star Trek (which is getting much better but still has a history of womanizing and sexism), to even the media that is directed at women, with the main characters being female (Divergent, Hunger Games) or the main themes abusing every traditionally "girly" interests (basically every romcom ever). Comic books have been dominated by male characters for ages (current DCU has exactly one(1) female character and it drives me so mad). Oh, and anime, with the biggest hits being 99% male-centered shounen. And these are just the examples that I remembered (or am into, tbh).

Now, I want to make two things clear:
1. These franchises aren't inherently bad just because there aren't many women in them (and if there are, they're poorly written).
2. I'm not saying that these fandoms are male-dominated. An argument can be made that women were the original trekkies, but that's my little pet peeve that I'll rant about some other time.

Now, most historically successful (and, regrettably, currently popular) female characters fall into one of the two categories:
1) Side-lined supporting cast, where a woman's role can be defined in a one word, like "mother" or "lover" of the main character, who is a male.
2) A little better but still sad instance of being reduced to the rule of cool, where the writers so desperately need to justify their badass creation having boobs (gasp!), that they forgive to give her a personality.

There are, of course, many wonderful female characters who are well-written and amazing, but there isn't enough of them to fix the stereotypes engraved into our brain by hundreds of years of men justifying their inability to portraying a woman by casually getting himself rid of any need to do so.

Anyway.

Writers happen to mold their characters after the people they like, and the primary source of inspiration for modern-day nerds is reading and other media. But pray tell, do we always read about well-written women? Or do we still enjoy timeless classics despite them perpetuating the stereotypes we then bring into our writing?

I often post search threads, but I can never bring myself to do an interest check for an FxF couple. Every time I hesitantly do post something, I either end up unhappy with my own female character, or inevitably underwhelmed by my partner's, which isn't their fault, but an inevitable product of our upbringing, media influence and social order.

I don't believe sexual attraction plays a part in making MxM dynamics more popular, because I resent the thought of creative writing as a supplement for satisfying real-life sexual needs. Also because in platonic relationships the popularity is essentially the same, with MxM being the leading choice among writers.

TL,DR: people don't like to write female characters because for centuries people didn't know how to, and now they can't figure it out either. The non-binary part of the planet is in an even sadder position, but nevermind that.

Thank you for coming to my TED talk.

 

[nerdy tangents]

Raymond_of_Clubs that is an interesting take on the issue. My only counterpart is ;

1. People will just say they write characters based on their sexuality. Usually in the form of saying they are “uncomfortable” portraying characters outside their sexuality. So it isn’t so much that we are linking roleplays to satisfying real world sexual needs. If anything we are linking it to the lie about gender norms.

2. I don’t think people are afraid to write women. Like by far the overwhelming majority of romantic based roleplays (and even platonic roleplays for that matter) have people who default to female characters. In romantic pairings this is usually “I play the female in MF romance.” In platonic it’s “I am most comfortable playing females.”

So if anything I think the fact that FF isn’t the second most popular romantic pairing really does point to a sexuality based reaction. Because these are people who will play the female in a MF pairing but won’t play a female in a FF pairing.

 

[Raymond_of_Clubs]

nerdy tangents

I see your point! I do have to counter though.

1. I'm not sure if you're referring to sexuality, gender, or both here. I have seen people saying they are uncomfortable with a certain pairing and/or a certain gender, which is understandable and (imo) not necessarily linked to the writer's own gender or sexuality.

2. I suppose it depends on the writer. There are people out there who still use one-liners with asterisks just for the sex, and I feel like we shouldn't really count that? If we only consider people who are in it for the literature/plot/characterization/etc, even with romance being a large part of it, I do believe people feel less confident writing women.

As for "people who will play a woman for an MxF, but not an FxF"... well, again, we all know what a dream straight couple looks like. Sapphics, however, are full of mystery XDDD

I'm not denying that for some people sexuality is the reason. I just think there's a much bigger underlying problem, 'tis all.

 

[nerdy tangents]

Raymond_of_Clubs based on my personal experience as a detailed 1x1 roleplayer who predominately does slow burn romance ,

You are reaching hard my friend. I can count on one hand the amount of people who are “uncomfortable” writing women and they are all men.

So the idea that “oh people who do really literary romance are all afraid to write women” is mind boggling to me. Because I have just never seen that be a thing in all my years as a detailed roleplayer. Not once have I ran into someone who was like “I don’t know how to write women” and it didnt turn out that they were a cisman who just didn’t want to write outside his gender.

(Which is fine to be honest, but like they rarely did MM either so their preference for men isn’t really relevant to the MM vs. FF debate)

In people who do MM, one overwhelmingly they were women, and two not a one of them had trouble writing women.

2. So I genuinely do think part of why MM is popular in FANDOM is lack of well written female characters, I do not agree that this translate to people being unable to write female characters. If anything those characters are usually based on the lived experience of the female writers.

3. As for sexuality I suppose we can simply agree to disagree on that part.

 

[Raymond_of_Clubs]

nerdy tangents

I'm not surprised female writers dominate the MxM niche because they dominate pretty much all of the RPs on this site regardless of the character dynamic. They literally dominate RPing in general, at least on this site.

I've met plenty of women who couldn't write women. I guess with a number of people as huge as this role-playing pool, speaking from experience barely accounts for anything at all.

And sure, I'm not surprised men can't write women. Their only guide is other media. On the other hand, women, also essentially guided by the same sources, don't have trouble writing men half as often. Which kind of proves my point.

And explains why FxF is the least popular dynamic. If at least one partner is struggling writing women, it just won't happen.

 

[Merciless Medic]

I'm just going to add my two cents here.

I am female and straighter than an iron bar, yet I absolutely love m/m and f/f. While it's weirder for me to write f/f, I can still do it. I am more comfortable writing out m/f because that is my sexuality and that is what I have more experience in. However, I do like m/m and f/f because it takes me back to all those manga I read that had those aspects. When it comes down to my own character and a canon character, that is because I enjoy that canon character and would love to be their date or have them in real life (so yes, it is a "sexual need" if that's what you want to equate it to). Because I'm straight (and this is for me personally) and female, I tend to go down that route more often. I like to break gender norms too, which is why I like doing m/f more. Breaking gender norms for m/m and f/f is much harder for me because I want to default to gender norms myself (especially when I don't have the gumption to write differently made characters that aren't based on stereotypes, and that goes for m/f too but not as often).

For m/m, I enjoy it more than f/f because I am not in anyway attracted to women (I can see the appeal) and I can equate my attraction to men and put that on a male character I play as. Plus, yaoi is, I believe, more popular than yuri but that's neither here nor there.

For my husband, he can write women incredibly well. Especially evil ones, since his mind can think about that stuff better than most people should. He prefers m/f, but he can enjoy playing both male and female. It's not that women aren't well-written (to me, that is), but it's the cliches that get me or the lack of substance and expansion on the idea/cliche that birthed them. I hate making shy female characters because I see it all the time and I'm not shy anymore. I hate making passive-aggressive female characters, yet I still do so because I am also passive-aggressive to some extent and I used to be that way for most of my life.

I have met other people, males, who can write females incredibly well, as well (they are on a Discord server I'm on). It's not that men can't write females or are scared to, it's that they don't know how to subvert the female tropes that sneak their way in. They can very easily understand a female if given the time and place like we can, and if they want to make their female character well-liked and realistic, they'll put their time and energy into that character. I'm more or less thinking some of yall may have had a bad experience with them. XD

I don't use examples like Katniss or what-have-you. I use examples like Legally Blonde. She's incredibly intelligent and breaks the mold of a "dumb blonde" but she can be a little dense. Still, she isn't stupid and she was able to fight back against her ex who dumped her for someone else, and become a lawyer when she didn't want to be one at first because she was only in a law school to be with her ex. I like those characters. While I can't stand watching her sometimes, she's an amazing female character. She's a stereotype of a rich, sometimes entitled woman, but she's got the intelligence and awareness to change herself and better herself for the long run.

Women don't have to be buff like men are in comics and all that (that's just toxic masculinity and I follow more with the mold of Aragorn from Lord of the Rings anyway since he's the appropriate amount of masculinity I like in any pairing of characters), but we can have women who find strengths in unconventional ways and use it to become a boss or get "buff" to beat some butt (which that is wish fulfillment but that's neither here nor there). I also see it in media from between 1990s to 2010s. Nowadays, I don't see a whole lot of that, or the plot and characters are incredibly stretched or stupid.

I went on a whole other tangent lol XD

Anyway, yes, media doesn't exactly help, but stereotypes sell, sadly. Granted, if a man has a woman they can learn from, like a friend they can ask questions (or look up highly relatable memes), then they can understand women in a basic level like how women understand men. I know that men talk way differently, are more to the point, and the stuff they don't say are said on their faces, who people (usually other men) can pick up almost immediately with context clues. My husband knows that women are more emotional in their responses (most of the time) and they tend to use words to cover/mask up what they are actually feeling ("I'm fine") or they use silver linings to get through to what they mean, especially if they are passive-aggressive and not to the point (like I am not).

Anyway, to wrap it up: I don't RP f/f mainly because out of the other two, I don't have experience with it and I'm straight. I don't have the same attraction to them and would more or less see them platonically or in a platonic setting. It's incredibly difficult for me to see them (and much less RP them) in any other setting than platonic, even though I know lesbians exist. Simply because I'm a straight female. I enjoy m/m more because I can put my own attractions onto a male character and play them out. In fact, I like playing male characters a lot more than female characters in a romantic setting so I'm mainly playing m/m or m/f anyway (but that's mainly because I have to or I want to use a character who needs a date. Otherwise, I'll default to female).

 

[nerdy tangents]

Raymond_of_Clubs

edit. I actually think I figured out what about your argument was ringing false for me. It wasn’t the character construction it was the underlying thesis that women are so poorly served in the media it makes it hard to write female characters in roleplays.

I think that might just be a reflection of the media you are consuming itself. As I grew up consuming predominately female led media. The rare media I consumed that was predominately male dominated didn’t really have poorly written female characters.

My clearest memory from growing up is Gambit and Rogue from XMen. I will die on the hill of that ship. I suppose it’s possible people paired Gambit up with other people (honestly knowing what I know of fandom they sure as heck did) but I don’t think anyone disliked the Rogue Gambit ship because she was poorly written or a bad character.

Another example is Harry Potter. I was a massive Ginny hater growing up but more because I resented JKR shoe-horning that romance in last minute. I was totally fine with Harry/Cho. I think I read a lot of Drarry, but more because that was kinda what was available in terms of fanfic.

Put whenever I roleplayed Harry Potter I just made horrible French stereotypes who were 100% all girls. I don’t think I made a single male HP OC until I started doing 1x1s and my partners just requested I play the male.

And yeah I played a male a lot at that time but more because someone had to and it didn’t bother me to do so. Not because I couldn’t write women (well okay the French stereotypes were super cringey but I didn’t realize that at the time.)

 

[Jannah]

nerdy tangents

I'm not surprised female writers dominate the MxM niche because they dominate pretty much all of the RPs on this site regardless of the character dynamic. They literally dominate RPing in general, at least on this site.

I've met plenty of women who couldn't write women. I guess with a number of people as huge as this role-playing pool, speaking from experience barely accounts for anything at all.

And sure, I'm not surprised men can't write women. Their only guide is other media. On the other hand, women, also essentially guided by the same sources, don't have trouble writing men half as often. Which kind of proves my point.

And explains why FxF is the least popular dynamic. If at least one partner is struggling writing women, it just won't happen.

This might apply to some people, but I can't really relate since I write both males and females. I do admittedly write males more than I do females, but I think that's more so to do with the fact they're usually the more exciting characters to write in the settings I enjoy. I do a lot of realistic historical RP's and it's not like in the past women could do all the things men could. In court intrigue type plots I do enjoy writing the women, but in most other historical plots I will almost always default to a male character.

Also, when it comes to personal attraction, as an Ace I really have no dog in that fight. I do tend to find women more aesthetically attractive (usually), however, so I do find it easier to write characters who are attracted to women. That means I'm usually writing MxF since not many people around here seem to do FxF.

 

[nerdy tangents]

Jannah yeah I actually started tracking my character distribution a bit ago out of curiosity.

The majority of my saved OCs are female, but when it comes to romantic roleplays I will always write the love interest my partner requests. So if they want a male, I play a male. If they want a female, I play a female. I am still working on nonbinary characters but if requested I would play them as well.

I am aro/ace so I mostly just take other people at their word when they describe what makes them uncomfortable about certain pairings. I think it helps in my case that I view the relationships similarly to friendships + physical affection. There isn’t as much of a focus on what gender your friends are as long as they have shared interests and what not.

Well I should say I wasn’t raised to think you had to have gender specific friendships but I know that isn’t the case for everyone.

 

[Syntra]

Yeah, I'm guessing that most roleplayers are straight women and that's why they gravitate towards mxm ships. I'm queer and I won't write anything but fxf, so I can attest that it's sometimes hard to find partners who will do that with you on here. Nevertheless, I have also had many awesome partners and I just don't agree with the idea that not many people know how to write female characters well. Like, that has not been my experience at all.

 

[nerdy tangents]

Yeah, I'm guessing that most roleplayers are straight women and that's why they gravitate towards mxm ships. I'm a lesbian and I won't write anything but fxf, so I can attest that it's sometimes hard to find partners who will do that with you on here. Nevertheless, I have also had many awesome partners and I just don't agree with the idea that not many people know how to write female characters well. Like, that has not been my experience at all.

Out of curiosity do you find it’s mostly men requesting the FxF?

 

[Syntra]

Out of curiosity do you find it’s mostly men requesting the FxF?

I don't really do request threads anymore because I haven't had much luck with that. It is me who contacts potential partners and I tend to contact other women/non-binary people, for comfort reasons.

 

[Jannah]

Yeah, I'm guessing that most roleplayers are straight women and that's why they gravitate towards mxm ships. I'm a lesbian and I won't write anything but fxf, so I can attest that it's sometimes hard to find partners who will do that with you on here. Nevertheless, I have also had many awesome partners and I just don't agree with the idea that not many people know how to write female characters well. Like, that has not been my experience at all.

Well, I actually prefer writing FxF over MxM for the reasons I mentioned in my previous post so if you ever need partners feel free to hit me up! Maybe we have some common interests. It's worth a try.

 

[Wind]

I agree with most that are said but hopefully no one really brought this up as well that not many straight males also want to play as females usually.

Whereas tons of females are willing and do play as males.
My sister included, haha. Whereas I play female sometimes. We're so backwards.

 

[nerdy tangents]

I agree with most that are said but hopefully no one really brought this up as well that not many straight males also want to play as females usually.

Whereas tons of females are willing and do play as males.
My sister included, haha. Whereas I play female sometimes. We're so backwards.

I think it’s two separate issues (I’m not straight but I am a woman).

The first issue is that by far the more popular pairing with straight women is MF, and in that pairing someone has to play a male. So it’s more along the lines of just getting assigned a character (typically with the promise of reciprocity).

So I think a desire for fairness and heterosexual roleplays means that women kinda have to be open to playing men. Because there aren’t enough men to fill all the open slots of male love interests.

The other point I think is more tied directly to an individuals sexuality and misunderstanding of what makes the opposite gender tick. A lot of people who stick to their own gender have a fear of “writing the other gender wrong”, which ties into Raymond’s idea that it’s because these people assume that media promoted stereotypes are what makes up individual genders.

In reality anyone who actually writes both genders will tell you there isn’t a “male character type” and a “female character type.” You just write the character you want to write and assign them pronouns.

 

[Syntra]

Well, I actually prefer writing FxF over MxM for the reasons I mentioned in my previous post so if you ever need partners feel free to hit me up! Maybe we have some common interests. It's worth a try.

Hey, why not! Anything you're currently interested in? I've seen you around and I know you mostly do historical rps. Those I'm a little iffy about, mostly because I do too much research at work to research things for roleplays, too, but if you don't mind small inaccuracies and/or non-historical settings, we can try to work something out.

 

[Jannah]

Hey, why not! Anything you're currently interested in? I've seen you around and I know you mostly do historical rps. Those I'm a little iffy about, mostly because I do too much research at work to research things for roleplays, too, but if you don't mind small inaccuracies and/or non-historical settings, we can try to work something out.

I also do modern/urban fantasy type stuff and some sci-fi so maybe there's something along those lines we can figure out if you're uncomfortable with historical?

 

[pawn]

I find this topic to be very interesting because my own preferences in character pairings and my real life attractions don't necessarily line up. I am a queer, non-binary person who is almost-exclusively attracted to women and other enbies, but when it comes to the stories I write mxm tends to be my default. Straight, mxf pairings are a complete no-go for me. They're overdone in every type of media, and I don't wish to tack on to that. I will write fxf and other queer pairings, but it just doesn't always flow as naturally or feel as appealing to me. I believe part of this stems from my own hesitance to write female characters for fear I won't do them justice as the complex, interesting beings they are, as well as gender dysphoria and the complicated relationship I have with femininity. Not to mention internalized misogyny!

Departing from the points that others have already made, I believe it also has to do with my personal comfort, for as much as I love to be thoroughly engrossed in the stories I write, I also like to keep my personal life distinct from my writing. Writing is a form of escapism for me, I don't want to feel like I'm reliving my own life through my characters. I can very much get into writing a story with a mxm pairing, but at the end of the day I don't see myself or my life being mirrored in that relationship. I could be alone in this sentiment, but it's worth considering as another factor to this phenomena.

 

[Coward]

Glad we got past the idea that women writing MxM are just a bunch of degenerates who see gay men as personal sex toys. I don't think this has ever been true as the whole story, and having it as an easy answer feels kind of misogynist in itself in a weird way.

I can tell you how I went from being a woman playing F in MxF to being a woman who'd play any pairing, to being someone who does MxM almost exclusively:

Het RP usually sucks. There, I said it. The rigidity of the gender roles, the insistence on fucked up power dynamics, the docile female characters... terrible. Not all of them, but definitely most. When I played males in MxF I would often end up carrying the plot, because the female lead would be almost inert. Scratch that as an option worth starting.

If I played F in MxF I would attract male partners... and frankly you guys are often extremely creepy and poorly socialised. I do not need you to describe my characters breasts through her shirt or push her against random objects to show dominance. If I wanted to be constantly reminded of sexism I'd set foot in the outside world. Terrible. Not worth starting.

I do play FxF but hardly anyone ever asks for it. Also I kind of doubt my ability to give a lesbian partner what she's looking for, it's not my community or scene.

That leaves MxM, who are statistically the best partners and the only ones I usually bother with these days.

So why do I play MxM? Because patriachy, frankly. It sounds like a joke but I seriously think this is the main answer.

Other bonuses, some of which have been noted before:

1. MxM relationships have no built in power dynamic, if you decide to add one it's fresh minted and mostly baggage free. That's nice!
2. Male characters are also fun to write as a change of scenery from my everyday experience.
3. LGBT RPers usually are leftists, so I won't have to deal with any weird fucked up racism etc.
4. MxM players are usually a bit older and more secure in themselves than MxF players.

 

[Jannah]

Glad we got past the idea that women writing MxM are just a bunch of degenerates who see gay men as personal sex toys. I don't think this has ever been true as the whole story, and having it as an easy answer feels kind of misogynist in itself in a weird way.

I can tell you how I went from being a woman playing F in MxF to being a woman who'd play any pairing, to being someone who does MxM almost exclusively:

Het RP usually sucks. There, I said it. The rigidity of the gender roles, the insistence on fucked up power dynamics, the docile female characters... terrible. Not all of them, but definitely most. When I played males in MxF I would often end up carrying the plot, because the female lead would be almost inert. Scratch that as an option worth starting.

If I played F in MxF I would attract male partners... and frankly you guys are often extremely creepy and poorly socialised. I do not need you to describe my characters breasts through her shirt or push her against random objects to show dominance. If I wanted to be constantly reminded of sexism I'd set foot in the outside world. Terrible. Not worth starting.

I do play FxF but hardly anyone ever asks for it. Also I kind of doubt my ability to give a lesbian partner what she's looking for, it's not my community or scene.

That leaves MxM, who are statistically the best partners and the only ones I usually bother with these days.

So why do I play MxM? Because patriachy, frankly. It sounds like a joke but I seriously think this is the main answer.

Other bonuses, some of which have been noted before:

1. MxM relationships have no built in power dynamic, if you decide to add one it's fresh minted and mostly baggage free. That's nice!
2. Male characters are also fun to write as a change of scenery from my everyday experience.
3. LGBT RPers usually are leftists, so I won't have to deal with any weird fucked up racism etc.
4. MxM players are usually a bit older and more secure in themselves than MxF players.

It seems we have had very different experiences. Most of my experiences with MxF have been good and it's almost always what I play in romantic plots. Also, when you say there's no sexism in MxM plots are you were referring to IC or OOC? Just curious since I have done plots, mostly historical plots, where characters (not the players) were racist, sexist, etc.

 

[POOHEAD189]

MxM, FxF, MxF, in my 10 year experience, you just need the right partner and it always works. I think I have only done MxF myself, but I know many people who have done both of the others and they have a grand time.

 

[amenayo]

Personally? I'm of the opinion it comes from the fact women are much more willing to write men than men write women. It may come from misogyny honestly. I have no issue if someone doesn't want to write a woman, don't get me wrong, but it's just a trend I've noticed. As someone who often writes fxf, I also find that it may just be about personal preference as well. Many lesbians or bi women don't want to write fxf with men, which is completely understandable.

 

[POOHEAD189]

I'm not entirely sure the reasoning for it. In my case, I'm a novelist and a small time author, and the first story I ever published was a novelette with a female protagonist with no smut or romance, just a rogue doing a job. But at the same time I don't know if I would want to play her in an RP. I think women might simply be more open to certain things.

 

[Jannah]

MxM, FxF, MxF, in my 10 year experience, you just need the right partner and it always works. I think I have only done MxF myself, but I know many people who have done both of the others and they have a grand time.

Yea, I do FxF if there's the right plot. I'm slowly getting into MxM again too, which I will also do if there's the right plot. Because I'm primarily a historical RPer, though, most of my non-MxF plots will involve forbidden romance. I love the trope, though, haha.