Viewpoint Let's talk about Elitism, and what it actually is...

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M.J. Saulnier

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So in RP, often whenever an individual or group of individuals strive to further their art and adopt a standard for it as they go, that standard ends up getting them labeled as elitist. It creates this illusion that they look down on, judge, or mistreat those who's styles or tastes they deem as inferior. That they will not work with people of different skill or style levels. That they are arrogant, pompous, disconnected, and feel as though they sit above and therefor should not directly interact with them. But I don't believe a desire for personal growth or excellence in a given project, or one's own style, and elitism are mutually exclusive. I'm not one for absolutes, but I firmly disagree that it's always about classism, or the actual division of mind and heart you see with actual elitism.

If I'm doing a para project with set standards, I'm only accepting for, and plan to enforce, those standards. That doesn't mean I won't later join a sandbox with players of varying levels of skill and style. It just means people are different. They have different tastes. Sometimes when veterans take the grievances they've been bottling up for years upon years to venting threads, people get the wrong impression about the intent due to the nature of the content.


So I open the floor for conversation, debate, discussion. Should we all strive for better, simply because we intend to do it long-term, as a part of a community? Or is this selfless way of thinking simply antiquated in today's utilitarian, PUBG RP climate?
 
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I don’t think that it’s just a set of standards that get you called elitist. I always set expected standards in my rps. Those standards aren’t always the same. Hell im in 10 rn, none are the same. Some value post times per week over length some value post length over time, some have a strict set for both, while one is a Phoenix that keeps getting revived and miraculously living for a bit before going dormant again.

Having standards doesn’t make you elitist imo. It’s really how you talk to peeps I think. I’ve been called elitist before just for sharing how I come up w my characters, and I’ve never once said it’s the best or only way to do it. It’s funny in hindsight but also sad because somewhere along the line I musta made someone uncomfortable w my tone. Like anyone who knows me can tell you I come off aggressively at time hell I’ve been in anger management since I was like five. It’s really about purposely working on your tone.

Standards really aren’t markers. I won’t do one liners in rps I run cause they straight don’t fit my gm style. Doesn’t mean I don’t do oneliners as a side story or in a filler rp (again not saying it’s lesser but I like to sit down and write a page at a time. For me to willingly do a one liner rp means it’s def not my only rp at the time)
 
I’ve been called elitist before just for sharing how I come up w my characters, and I’ve never once said it’s the best or only way to do it. It’s funny in hindsight but also sad because somewhere along the line I musta made someone uncomfortable w my tone. Like anyone who knows me can tell you I come off aggressively at time hell I’ve been in anger management since I was like five. It’s really about purposely working on your tone.

You don't even have to be aggressive about it. Any time you make someone feel inferior about their behavior, they will lash out to try and make you look like the problem. It's human nature. But if someone is working with you, you probably can't call them elitist. Elitists won't work with subpar equipment or support packages. Elitists don't mingle directly with the common dregs. So if they were elitist, that'd mean you were counted among the elite as well... You know what I mean? So their argument always seems folly.
 
Elitism's definition is very easy to find online.

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But for anyone who has a doubt, there is good elitism and bad elitism if only because of it's definition, for example: A Professional Olympics sports participant might be considered sports elite because of their talent, dedication and so forth that got them there.

The bad form of Elitism: Said Professional Olympics player thinks everyone below him who did not make it to the Olympics, should quit and never play again.

Idea Idea is right however, having standards does not make you an elitist by nature. Everyone is welcome on RpNation to create a RP and set the standards they want as long as it does not infringe on our site rules. You can read about RP Creator rights here: Roleplay Rights

But, I think you already knew all of this, so I fail to see the point of another one of these threads. Just searching for your name on the site and the word fandom together leads to a lot of negative energy.

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But my favorite explanation of toxic elitism is as follows: X is inferior because Y said so and wants Z to agree.

My question is, if it doesn't detract from your fun, or impact your space where you can set your own standards and rules, who cares?. It's fine to set standards for your own work and what you engage in, but why demean those who are not affiliated with you in any way?
 
Idea?

I think you meant BriiAngelic BriiAngelic . But I guess they both have anime girls as their avatars.


Negativity doesn't equate to elitist, if that's what you're suggesting, The Dark Wizard The Dark Wizard .

Yeah, I have not had my morning coffee yet. I meant BriiAngelic BriiAngelic . My point was that you are the Olympic Sports Professional blanket casting everything you've deemed as inferior, not worthy of existing, or as in your own words, cancer.

The very nature of the question proposed in your thread is a trap or Begging the Question:

Should we all strive for better, simply because we intend to do it long-term, as a part of a community? Or is this selfless way of thinking simply antiquated in today's utilitarian, PUBG RP climate?

You begin the question by already painting one side of the argument with bias by designating it as "selfless", and by virtue, the other side not. Choosing anything but the answer you want, which in of itself is completely flawed in its structure. I don't see a debate or a healthy discussion forming but rather arguments where someone will have the need to defend themselves and their way of RPing.

Negativity doesn't equate to elitist,

Negativity, does not equate to toxic elitism, no. Negativity ithat you spread, and try to instill in others, or shame others for being on the opposite side, is. Not liking and not participating in/hosting Fandom RPs is not elitism. Telling others that their form of RP is cancer, most definitely is.

If I'm doing a para project with set standards, I'm only accepting for, and plan to enforce, those standards. That doesn't mean I won't later join a sandbox with players of varying levels of skill and style. It just means people are different.

Perhaps your premise would have more weight if you provided examples of situations where you did X and someone(s) assumed that you wouldn't participate or make a different kind of RP.
mistreat those who's styles or tastes they deem as inferior

The only people I've seen called elitist on this site in the past 12 years are people who do explicitly this.
But I don't believe a desire for personal growth or excellence in a given project, or one's own style, and elitism are mutually exclusive

One of the few things, I agree with you on, which, I'm confused as to why it's here. No one has said or is saying that a desire for personal growth/excellence in a given project (which I assume for context, given the site that we are on is writing/roleplaying) is exclusive with elitism. Not even sure why this is here in this post, for the argument that you are trying to make. Everyone loves someone who is trying to get better at their chosen skill/hobby/passion. The issue stems when a person decides to make everyone else inferior.

Sometimes when veterans take the grievances they've been bottling up for years upon years to venting threads, people get the wrong impression about the intent due to the nature of the content.

Examples, please.
 
Yeah, it's definitely not about the standards. As I see it, elitism is thinking your standards make you better than people who choose to approach the hobby in a different way. So what if some people don't wish to improve their writing? That's their prerogative. We all have different reasons for roleplaying-- some enjoy crafting a narrative, some value the character interactions, some want to self-insert. No one reason is inherently better or worse, and there is no one way to 'improve' anyway since there is no 'right' way to roleplay.

And, besides, roleplaying won't help you much when finding your 'professional' writing voice. As someone who actually works with language professionally, I can tell you that 'serious' writing (be it short stories, poems, etc. etc.) has very little to do with what we're doing here. The format is completely different. What I'm trying to say is that this is a hobby and, as much as I love it, I'm not going to take it that seriously.
 
My question is, if it doesn't detract from your fun, or impact your space where you can set your own standards and rules, who cares?. It's fine to set standards for your own work and what you engage in, but why demean those who are not affiliated with you in any way?

Frankly? Because an RP community should be a bastion for literary standard and education, not literary ignorance. Because it does detract from fun. Because like any hobby, there should be standards. Because to you this is a fun, [ultimately] meaningless (I'm talking on the chart of your cosmic relevance) hobby. But to others it's not. To some people Rp carries the threat of triggers, because this isn't just some creative pass time they get to belittle when they want to feel important in discussion threads. It's a form of therapy for them (not advocating this). To some, even, it means something different. It goes beyond a hobby, into a passion. For some people writing became a new path, away from crime, prison or the graveyard. For some people what we do became a reason to live, and a way to express emotions and experiences we've grasped in a healthy fashion.

Because like in any hobby, there still has to be principles, in order to establish true respect and unity among a community, to protect order.

If we're rock climbers, about to scale an open face, are you going up with the guy who doesn't use harness equipment, because he's in it for the adrenaline, and he's never slipped on an open face - and also has to lead because he hates being behind the line - and again - he swears that line of coke he did on the way over won't cause him to slip, jeopardizing the lives of everyone on the line beneath him?

I'm not going up with him if it detracts from the fun.
 
All I hear is "Me, me, me" on this subject, in any thread it attempts to surface in.

"If it doesn't poke my bubble, who cares if it lives or dies?"
"It doesn't reach my bubble, so it doesn't bother me."
"If it doesn't pop your own bubble, why does it even matter?"


The root problem couldn't be more clear. You don't care what it means to anyone but yourself. I am cursed with the knowledge that this little waste of words per minute has the potential to mean a lot to people, depending on the RP in question.
 
See I come from Gaia where they have a whole level actually called elite on that site. It is usually just used to mean “I write this many words per post” though not necessarily as a way of tearing other people down.

So I agree with others, it’s less your requirements and how you convey them.

I might not want to write 1000 words per post* but it doesn’t bother me if you ask for them. What does bother me is if you act like anyone who doesn’t write 1000 words is somehow a lesser role player.

(* 1000 + was the word length for elite on my other site)
 
People are vastly different in how that approach Roleplaying. What detracts from the fun for one person is a part of the fun for another. That's why personally I tend to get involved in all types of rp from chat to long form to dice games. It's a novel experience each time I find someone with a new set of priorities, and for me that is what tends to interest me most. For others, I know they've set their priorities long ago and are more rigid in what types of Roleplay they actually enjoy. As someone who is fairly flexible, I've joined in on all sorts of different games with different expectations. My overall experiences lead me to believe one very important thing: If you don't like a roleplay, don't engage with it. There's bound to be someone out there who does things more your style if you have a preference for it, and trying to fit in a player who doesn't conform to a way of playing is just going to drag down the experience for the other players in a roleplay.

If you like to type out long, in depth responses, that detracts from the experiences of those who like things to be fast and straightforward. Likewise, those who don't give in depth responses will irk those who want more to work with. If you aren't adaptable, you aren't going to be able to engage in every roleplay out there. But that's okay, because you'll be able to find someone with more similar interests to you if you look in the right places.

Elitism as an attitude is something which can exist regardless of actual content. Maybe your posts aren't long enough. Maybe they're too long. Maybe you don't respond fast enough. Maybe you pad your posts out in a way that doesn't engage the other players. Maybe you didn't put enough thought into the content of your post. Maybe you put in too much. Maybe your post isn't formatted in an appealing way. Maybe you have main character syndrome. Maybe you don't reveal enough about your character. Maybe you play a loner character that doesn't get involved enough. Maybe your character is too involved and butts in where they're not wanted. Maybe you don't meet the expectations that were explicitly laid out when you join the game. Maybe you don't meet the expectations that were never explained to you.

I've seen all those things I mentioned and more be the basis for an elitist attitude. On one hand, it's a personal preference. On the other, it's putting people down when you could simply say "our play styles don't match up, you'd probably have more fun elsewhere". In the end, I think what makes a community strongest is the diversity. And in order to encourage that, I think it's important to recognize that one's personal standards can not apply to everyone.
 
All I hear is "Me, me, me" on this subject, in any thread it attempts to surface in.

"If it doesn't poke my bubble, who cares if it lives or dies?"
"It doesn't reach my bubble, so it doesn't bother me."
"If it doesn't pop your own bubble, why does it even matter?"


The root problem couldn't be more clear. You don't care what it means to anyone but yourself. I am cursed with the knowledge that this little waste of words per minute has the potential to mean a lot to people, depending on the RP in question.

Yes, because that is the healthy approach. In my bubble, I can dictate what my standards are. Others are free to do the same with their bubbles. Presumably, it means something to them, too, otherwise they wouldn't be doing it. Or do they not count because their standards are different?

I really fail to see what the problem is here.
 
I get the feeling that this thread was made because somebody recently called, implied, or you believed that they had implied you were an elitist. Like you just wanted to vent and now it has kinda backfired on you.

Probably didn't do yourself any favors with "I am cursed with the knowledge".
 
I get the feeling that this thread was made because somebody recently called, implied, or you believed that they had implied you were an elitist. Like you just wanted to vent and now it has kinda backfired on you.

Funny because I don't feel like it backfired at all, and no, it's not about me being called elitist, lol. My points keep being proven. It's all a metaphor.


Probably didn't do yourself any favors with "I am cursed with the knowledge".

Do you do creative writing at all, or? :P
 
Yes, because that is the healthy approach. In my bubble, I can dictate what my standards are. Others are free to do the same with their bubbles
like a venn diagram ! sometimes those standards/expectations will align between two or more people and thats why they start a rp together in the first place. if my standards/expectations don't align with [someone], they don't bother me in any shape or form bc i won't be associated with them then🤷🏽

i think that's the beauty of rping on this site especially: there's so many people here youre bound to find someone who shares your writing expectations ! and even if someone may not be "good" at writing ("good" is subjective tho) or want to dedicate hours into writing 2k+ word posts but they might still enjoy writing with others anyway

as someone whose first language isnt english and someone who doesnt speak english at home and someone who lives in a country where basic conversational english is the only form of it ever commonly used, writing to improve may not be my primary goal bc unless im working towards becoming an author or pursuing any job associated with literature degrees or on foreign grounds, improving my purple prose is useless for me
 
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as someone whose first language isnt english and someone who doesnt speak english at home and someone who lives in a country where basic conversational english is the only form of it ever commonly used, writing to improve may not be my primary goal bc unless im working towards becoming an author or pursuing any job associated with literature degrees or on foreign grounds, improving my purple prose is useless for me

As long as you're role playing, with other people, alongside their characters and in their stories from time to time, how can it ever be useless? The complete lack of anything resembling empathy or consideration for your fellow RPN user is I think what bothers me most here. We're not collecting Pokemon cards together. A crease on your foiled rare is a crease on MINE too... We are not collecting cards together...
 
As long as you're role playing, with other people, alongside their characters and in their stories from time to time, how can it ever be useless? The complete lack of anything resembling empathy or consideration for your fellow RPN user is I think what bothers me most here. We're not collecting Pokemon cards together. A crease on your foiled rare is a crease on MINE too... We are not collecting stamps together...
for example: if i write one-liners, person b writes one-liners, and you write 2k+ word posts, what person b and i write together--bc our writing expectations are the same--has nothing to do with you.
if youre hosting a grp with a rule that explicitly says only ppl who write 2k+ posts can join then i won't bc i dont write posts that lengthy and our paths wont ever cross bc youll be writing w ppl who match your writing expectations

its that simple
 
You're not getting my point at all. Even though you write alongside other people every day, you say improving the language you RP in would be useless, as if how it makes their experience easier and more fluid, means nothing.

That was my point. The statement, and mentality lacked any empathy or your peers who you work with. This is not a me hobby, despite everyone's tooth and nail efforts to make it so.
 
I gotta say it's fairly easy to avoid what you don't like. It's not quite like people hide their style, plus rpn makes it easy to look into people's styles by linking all their posts together on their profile. I always skim peeps previous rps not to gatekeep or anything but just to get an expectation on who I'm writing with. Like if i see in the past all you do is single paras I know I'm not gonna be seeing 2000+ words from you. There's a good deal of range in writing in most rps I'm in. To me so long as you hit that "Dialogue, thoughts, action" its a good post. it's not like I rp to be quizzed on spelling and grammar anyways I just want that story and lore.
 
You're not getting my point at all. Even though you write alongside other people every day, you say improving the language you RP in would be useless, as if how it makes their experience easier and more fluid, means nothing.

That was my point. The statement, and mentality lacked any empathy or your peers who you work with. This is not a me hobby, despite everyone's tooth and nail efforts to make it so.

I think you are misunderstanding their point. They are not talking about readability they are talking about post length.

I am most comfortable writing a paragraph per post then I am not gonna roleplay with people who expect three paragraphs per post.

That doesn’t mean my one paragraph post is less readable than the three paragraph posts it just means it’s shorter.
 
There was a miscommunication and the thread wasn't supposed to be locked, it should be unlocked again.
 
Fable Fable The thread should be crumpled up in a ball and thrown into the fire. It was a metaphor for elitist staff members who behave more like archaic deities than moderators on creative writing boards.

You don't want information on an issue? Don't be the one who acts on it. It's simple. Modding isn't for everyone, it's stressful.
 
For what it's worth, I've never seen people be called elitists just for having certain roleplay standards. It's usually because they're also looking down on people who don't meet said standards, acting like they don't belong in the community, insinuating that people need to 'improve' to be valid in this hobby, etc. If people are constantly being labelled an elitist and they would like it to stop, I feel like they should take a closer look at what they are saying to people?
 
Frankly? Because an RP community should be a bastion for literary standard and education, not literary ignorance.

I'm sorry that you think we are for literary ignorance. We will have to, unfortunately, disagree on what that means, RpNation is not a university or an English degree program, but we do have plenty of authors, professionals, and English Degree seekers who seem to be enjoying the site just fine.

Perhaps, you should take Syntra Syntra 's words to heart and not take it as seriously.

After all the site's primary function since it's inception is to provide a distraction, release from Life's day to day issues and hardships, I.E: provide fun. The fandom roleplayers to the oneliners to the fandom online roleplayers are just as valid here as the users here to write novels professionally, to the users who write essays and short stories for one post. Some people like grammar, some don't mind, everything is okay here as long as RpNation's community guidelines are not infringed upon.

Because like any hobby, there should be standards. Because to you this is a fun, [ultimately] meaningless (I'm talking on the chart of your cosmic relevance) hobby. But to others it's not.

And that is why RP Creators can set the standards that they like and enjoy as long as it does not infringe upon site rules. Just so people don't have to click on the link, I'll quote the relevant parts here:

Roleplay Creator Rights
Roleplay Creators have certain rights over their roleplays created on RpNation or web spaces provided by RpNation. These rights are not necessarily absolute and can be altered or changed depending on a Roleplay Creator's behavior. If a dispute over a roleplay arises, the Roleplay Creator will be held in higher authority than a roleplay's participants by RpNation staff members. All Roleplay Creator's rights are listed below:
  • Roleplay Creators are the authority over their roleplays, not their players.
  • Roleplay Creators are the owners of their roleplays.
  • Roleplay Creators have the right to add their own rules to their roleplay (as long as such rules do not contradict or abridge RpN Site Rules or Policies).
  • Roleplay Creators have the right to determine what content is allowed in their roleplay (as long as such content does not break RpN Site Rules or Policies).
  • Roleplay Creators have the right to remove or reject any player from their roleplay.
  • Roleplay Creators have the right to prohibit or edit any action that occurs within their roleplay.
  • Roleplay Creators have the right to make decisions about their roleplay’s setting or lore and can even declare any content as "non-canon" for their roleplay.
  • Roleplay Creators can moderate and edit any content posted in their roleplay.
  • Roleplay Creators can delete posts within their roleplays.
  • Roleplay Creators have the right to place posting requirements or restrictions onto their roleplay.
  • Roleplay Creators do not have to notify their players of changes to their roleplay.
  • Roleplay Creators have the right to petition to the Staff to have their rules or wishes enforced (if their attempts to resolve issues directly with their players are unsuccessful).

Creators can remove players, reject characters and so forth and essentially curate their space on RpNation. Players have their own rights as a player and for the ownership of their characters to prevent abuse, but for the most part, RP Creator writers are pretty reasonable.


To some people Rp carries the threat of triggers, because this isn't just some creative pass time they get to belittle when they want to feel important in discussion threads.

I know of plenty of users who have triggers and are capable of finding content that is both welcoming and safe to them without enforcing a standard across the entirety of the site.

It goes beyond a hobby, into a passion

Not sure how passion = enforcing/policing the kinds of RPs that happen on the site, or the way people do them.
For some people writing became a new path, away from crime, prison or the graveyard.

And I'm glad when that is the case. We've been at this for a very long time, and nothing warms my heart when they tell me that this site saved their life, helped them make irreplaceable friends, partners, allowed people to stay in touch while they were deployed overseas. We've had users and staff gets married here, in real life. We've had people start professional writing careers, and so many other things that are numerous to count, that is absolutely beautiful. I myself started the site when I was a teenager out of the need for an outlet to survive domestic violence, so I completely get when you say that the site literally changes people's paths (also please we are not therapists, while RpNation is a great outlet, we can't professionally help you, don't take any advice you see on this site, over the words of a professional), but what I don't get is what this has to do with the standards you mention, and the enforcing of them. People who have used the site as their extra home are normal users farthest from suggesting, what you are suggesting.

For some people what we do became a reason to live, and a way to express emotions and experiences we've grasped in a healthy fashion.

This is fine, see my above statement on top of one. You are describing passion. But you know what is also beautiful about Roleplaying? It takes more than one person. Sharing is part of the fun and experience.

Because like in any hobby, there still has to be principles, in order to establish true respect and unity among a community, to protect order.

Roleplaying is a hobby, yes. RpNation is a place to facilitate said hobby. Said facility has rules and guidelines to foster respect, unity and order when interacting each other. We don't just have Guidelines, we have a whole area called The Handbook! you can find it here: RpNation Handbook

What we will not do is enforce a set "standard" as you call it, across the entire community and curate it in such a way.

If we're rock climbers, about to scale an open face, are you going up with the guy who doesn't use harness equipment, because he's in it for the adrenaline, and he's never slipped on an open face - and also has to lead because he hates being behind the line - and again - he swears that line of coke he did on the way over won't cause him to slip, jeopardizing the lives of everyone on the line beneath him?

I'm not going up with him if it detracts from the fun.

This is an entire fallacy in of itself because you are trying to tell the reader/potential person that is going to reply, that you have to share the "mountain" to begin with. Everyone gets their own Mountain on RpNation, and thats okay :). Some are bigger, some are smaller, some are different colors, shapes and sizes. Everyone gets to climb them, go up them in trolly carts, or around them all together, in any way or form they desire.

"It doesn't reach my bubble so it doesn't bother me."

That is the whole point though. Your bubble, your mountain, your roleplay space. If you can have this, why do you need to worry aobut other people's bubbles, mountains, spaces? If you don't want something in your RP, don't allow it.

Frankly? Because an RP community should be a bastion for literary standard and education, not literary ignorance. Because it does detract from fun.

I think ultimately my reply circles back to this. I think there is something for everyone on RpNation, hence the way things are run where roleplays are essentially the creator's space minus some over arching site rules.

I understand what you are saying about your fun though and it, unfortunately, seems like it might be incompatible with the site's mission of being a distraction from life for a tiny bit? Your fun involves telling other people to have fun, and that doesn't seem to jive well with the point of the site. I mean this genuinely and wholeheartedly as a piece of constructive critism. If RpNation is not for you, why not find another site, or try to make your own? There are forum softwares like xenforo, invision power, and so forth or free ones even. Make your own, do something cool where you feel comfortable, and other people of a like-minded view, can also feel comfortable. Or make a roleplay here with all the restrictions you want, I can't promise that you'll get many partners though.


Fable Fable The thread should be crumpled up in a ball and thrown into the fire. It was a metaphor for elitist staff members who behave more like archaic deities than moderators on creative writing boards.

You don't want information on an issue? Don't be the one who acts on it. It's simple. Modding isn't for everyone, it's stressful.

Oof. Now the thread is a metaphor for elitist staff members?

Is this in relation to roleplays? Because a quick search across the site shows that you've never RPed with a staff member before.

Is this in relation to the way they moderate? If so if you have any issues, you need to report and make an entry in staff contact, or PM me in my inbox, we do take reports of staff abuse very seriously where ever they show up.

Ultimately I'm sure plenty of people think I've wasted my time in replying to you today, but I genuinely wanted to see what you thought, and why you thought it. Either you are a troll or you really do have issues with the different kinds and ways people RP on the site, and ultimately RpNation being a space for everyone, is not for you.
 
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