Advice/Help I'm Facing A Writing Dilemma

[ChrisReaper]

Ok so I'm facing a bit of a dilemma and I thought of seeing what fellow writers would have to say on this subject. I developed an RP idea that stemmed from my love of Lovecraft. The RP itself didn't get very far, but the idea was so good that I decided to expand it. I've written various other screenplays before for both film and television and I decide to flesh out my idea into a pilot for a possible television show that I plan to shop around to various networks. The basic premise deals with the universe of Lovecraft's Cthulhu mythos. There is a prophecy contained within the Necronomicon that foretells the coming of ten "Blood Prophets" that will usher in the return of the Old Ones. These Blood Prophets are all heinous mass murderers and serial killers. The prophets are split up into two distinct groups, the Heralds ( who will not be active characters, simply used as a plot device) and the Harbingers. Now here's my problem, for the first group I had always planned to use real life historical serial killers such as John Wayne Gacy and Jeffrey Dahmer. I am halfway done my screenplay and I have begun to re think my choice regarding this particular plot device. As fellow writers and those of horror in particular, do you think the decision to use real life mass murderers would be insensitive to the families of the victims and I should just invent whole new fictional characters for my Heralds? Or do you think it really matters in the context of the actual story? Your input is greatly appreciated.

 

[Crayons]

I absolutely think that you should use fictional characters rather than real life mass murderers.

 

[Crenando]

If you do use historical killers, choose ones from a point in time like the 1800's, where people have since propped up the legends of them, like Jack the Ripper or Sweeney Todd.
The Seventies is way too modern for that kind of thing, and shifting the blame of killing dozens of people from them to fictional eldritch horrors is something I'd advise against.

 

[ChrisReaper]

If you do use historical killers, choose ones from a point in time like the 1800's, where people have since propped up the legends of them, like Jack the Ripper or Sweeney Todd.
The Seventies is way too modern for that kind of thing, and shifting the blame of killing dozens of people from them to fictional eldritch horrors is something I'd advise against.

Not likely, the earliest I plan to back is maybe the 1940's. I think more recent serial killers will have more of an impact than ones who are relegated to legend and myth status. Killers like Bundy and Gacy have more of tangibility to them since they are more recent. Makes it more frightening in my opinion.

 

[Crayons]

Not likely, the earliest I plan to back is maybe the 1940's. I think more recent serial killers will have more of an impact than ones who are relegated to legend and myth status. Killers like Bundy and Gacy have more of tangibility to them since they are more recent. Makes it more frightening in my opinion.

I guarantee no studio will pick that show up. It's just not appropriate. You could maybe make a self published comic or ebook about it, but it would come over as extremely tasteless at the minimum.

 

[ChrisReaper]

I guarantee no studio will pick that show up. It's just not appropriate. You could maybe make a self published comic or ebook about it, but it would come over as extremely tasteless at the minimum.

You can't guarantee anything as something like this is not without precedent. Many programs and movies reference real criminals and killers all the time. Dexter, The Following, American Psycho and American Horror Story are just a few that have referenced real life mass murders on a regular basis and have been hugely successful.

 

[cadence]

To make my point short, I think it is absolutely insensitive for you to include real life serial killers and criminals in your story. You'd be far better off making up your own characters, possibly even having them INSPIRED by real serial killers if you absolutely want that, but including real serial killers is so incredibly insensitive I can't even TELL YOU how bothered it makes me that you're even considering it. The families and loved ones of many of these victims are still around to this day. Imagine having experienced the real horrors of a serial killer firsthand or having someone you love go through it and then see someone using those real experiences as a source of entertainment? And to justify those very real events with eldritch beings and try and make excuses for serial killers -- fictional or not? That's crazy, man.

Many programs and movies reference real criminals and killers all the time. Dexter, The Following, American Psycho and American Horror Story are just a few that have referenced real life mass murders on a regular basis and have been hugely successful.

There is a HUGE difference in referencing serial killers and criminals and having serial killers primary characters in your work. Aside from documentaries and other works that do not attempt to romanticize these killers at all, you will NEVER see one of these killers making an appearance as a real character in any sort of fiction. If you were to make this into a television show or an ebook or anything else, I agree completely that it will come off as incredibly insensitive and tasteless. Don't do it.

If you need to include real, already feared people that exist in real life to make your story scary/scarier... You're doing something wrong. You can come up with your own fictional serial killer and still have a scary story for people to enjoy without being insensitive to those actually effected.

 

[Crenando]

Not likely, the earliest I plan to back is maybe the 1940's. I think more recent serial killers will have more of an impact than ones who are relegated to legend and myth status. Killers like Bundy and Gacy have more of tangibility to them since they are more recent. Makes it more frightening in my opinion.

That tangibility has the downside of knowing what these people were like and why they did what they did, short of maybe someone like Zodiac. Most people at least have a gist of what these figures were like.
I think the best course of action is to make original fictional killers and have a character mention them in the same breath as a few contemporary murderers.
Using legendary killers also draws a connect line between the penny dreadfuls and dime novels to the pulps that the works of Lovecraft and his peers were printed in, to the modern mass market paperback, if you want to be hip and use intertextuality.

 

[ChrisReaper]

To make my point short, I think it is absolutely insensitive for you to include real life serial killers and criminals in your story. You'd be far better off making up your own characters, possibly even having them INSPIRED by real serial killers if you absolutely want that, but including real serial killers is so incredibly insensitive I can't even TELL YOU how bothered it makes me that you're even considering it. The families and loved ones of many of these victims are still around to this day. Imagine having experienced the real horrors of a serial killer firsthand or having someone you love go through it and then see someone using those real experiences as a source of entertainment? And to justify those very real events with eldritch beings and try and make excuses for serial killers -- fictional or not? That's crazy, man.


There is a HUGE difference in referencing serial killers and criminals and having serial killers primary characters in your work. Aside from documentaries and other works that do not attempt to romanticize these killers at all, you will NEVER see one of these killers making an appearance as a real character in any sort of fiction. If you were to make this into a television show or an ebook or anything else, I agree completely that it will come off as incredibly insensitive and tasteless. Don't do it.

If you need to include real, already feared people that exist in real life to make your story scary/scarier... You're doing something wrong. You can come up with your own fictional serial killer and still have a scary story for people to enjoy without being insensitive to those actually effected.

Calm down dude, first off, I wasn't thinking about making these people actual active characters in the story. The Heralds are PAST criminals that are very much dead. as I said before they are simply a plot device. The Harbingers in my story are the active characters and are living breathing people...and yes, all of them are fictional mass murderers that I have invented. Secondly, many of the programs that I mentioned do far more than just reference said killers. A few examples, in American Psycho, Patrick Bateman actively makes a joke about Ted Bundy's crimes and laughs at how many people he killed. A second example would be the Dexter villain, The Ice Truck Killer who muses how he idolized people like the BTK Killer and John Wayne Gacy, saying that they inspired his own fictional crimes within the series...and I needn't tell you how hugely successful that show was.

 

[ChrisReaper]

That tangibility has the downside of knowing what these people were like and why they did what they did, short of maybe someone like Zodiac. Most people at least have a gist of what these figures were like.
I think the best course of action is to make original fictional killers and have a character mention them in the same breath as a few contemporary murderers.
Using legendary killers also draws a connect line between the penny dreadfuls and dime novels to the pulps that the works of Lovecraft and his peers were printed in, to the modern mass market paperback, if you want to be hip and use intertextuality.

That's a good point and an idea I have knocked around. I haven't yet decided what I'm going to do, but the notion of adding that amount of realism really gives the story an added historical weight. Not to mention that these characters are simply a plot device and very much NPC's within the actual plotline.

 

[smolfluffball]

Can I just note that you didn't mention that the Heralds in your story are past criminals? Unless I totally missed it, but I don't think I did. You should have said that in your idea and then people might be more understanding!

 

[zippy]

You're ignoring advice people are giving you. As they clarified that is REFERENCING, not having them as active CHARACTERS. It seems that you're being more defensive rather than listening to what people are saying. I agree that it is very distasteful and that I would shy away from using these murderers as people in your story, especially doing so in a way that runs the risk of elevating these people onto a platform they don't deserve to be on.

 

[ChrisReaper]

Can I just note that you didn't mention that the Heralds in your story are past criminals? Unless I totally missed it, but I don't think I did. You should have said that in your idea and then people might be more understanding!

Trying not to give to much of the plot away, but fair enough.

 

[ChrisReaper]

You're ignoring advice people are giving you. As they clarified that is REFERENCING, not having them as active CHARACTERS. It seems that you're being more defensive rather than listening to what people are saying. I agree that it is very distasteful and that I would shy away from using these murderers as people in your story, especially doing so in a way that runs the risk of elevating these people onto a platform they don't deserve to be on.

I'm not ignoring anything, just stating the facts. Plus these people are acting as if I've already made the decision as to what I'm going to do with these characters. So whose the one getting defensive again?

 

[smolfluffball]

Trying not to give to much of the plot away, but fair enough.

I understand not wanting to give too much of the plot away, completely. But if people don't have all of the information, they're going to not know where you're really coming from and then you'll end up dealing with a lot of negativity. I also agree that using serial killers as ACTIVE characters is insensitive, and I do agree that you should try to come up with your own (or even pull inspiration from those you've mentioned). I don't think anyone is really trying to attack you - you asked for advice, and we're giving it.

 

[cadence]

What's the point of asking for an opinion if you're going to shut down all of them? Every single person who has replied in this thread has been very against the idea of using real serial killers in your work of fiction. Particularly a work that justifies them and uses them as a tool for entertainment. Even if they aren't active characters, using them as a plot device is still incredibly insensitive and rude. It diminishes real experiences and is ultimately glorified fanfiction. Not your actual work, perhaps, but anything using real serial killers for anything other than what they've actually done/ have had happen to them is.

Also, Bateman making a joke about Ted Bundy and referencing his crimes is still REFERENCING a real serial killer. Therefore, Ted Bundy was never an actual character in American Psycho. You plan on actually using these killers as CHARACTERS, regardless of whether or not they're alive or dead, active or inactive. It's not like Bateman and Ted Bundy cracked a cold one together and laughed about his number of victims. The Ice Truck Killer idolizing real life serial killers is, again, just referencing them. It's one thing to have mentions of these serial killers in your work for something they actually did. It's different to write something based on real accounts and to reference something that is true. Your problem is that you want to directly mention them for things that NEVER happened. In the end, Ted Bundy and all other serial killers in the world chose to kill on their own without any help from eldritch beings. To defend their actions with fiction is what's insensitive to the victims.

Everyone here is telling you it's offensive and insensitive and you're ignoring them all. Take it as a sign!

 

[ChrisReaper]

I understand not wanting to give too much of the plot away, completely. But if people don't have all of the information, they're going to not know where you're really coming from and then you'll end up dealing with a lot of negativity. I also agree that using serial killers as ACTIVE characters is insensitive, and I do agree that you should try to come up with your own (or even pull inspiration from those you've mentioned). I don't think anyone is really trying to attack you - you asked for advice, and we're giving it.

I never claimed anyone was trying to attack me and I understand why this would be a hot button issue amongst people. I didn't expect anything less. But I wasn't being defensive, again just stating facts.

 

[zippy]

Also, Bateman making a joke about Ted Bundy and referencing his crimes is still REFERENCING a real serial killer. Therefore, Ted Bundy was never an actual character in American Psycho. You plan on actually using these killers as CHARACTERS, regardless of whether or not they're alive or dead, active or inactive. It's not like Bateman and Ted Bundy cracked a cold one together and laughed about his number of victims. The Ice Truck Killer idolizing real life serial killers is, again, just referencing them. It's one thing to have mentions of these serial killers in your work for something they actually did. It's different to write something based on real accounts and to reference something that is true. Your problem is that you want to directly mention them for things that NEVER happened. In the end, Ted Bundy and all other serial killers in the world chose to kill on their own without any help from eldritch beings. To defend their actions with fiction is what's insensitive to the victims.

Thanks for this clarification! I realized after my post that I was a bit vague but this is the point I was trying to get across by emphasizing referencing vs the idea posed in the original thread.

But anyway, please do not think I am intending to be rude. I definitely understand the appeal of your idea and do think that there are very valid reasons that you'd be drawn to the idea. However, the issue does stem from the insensitive nature of using real people who had an awful effect on the lives of other real people.

Often times with serial killers, the killer rises to infamy while the victims go unheard of and the families suffer. In the modern climate, this is in the back of many people's minds constantly. I can't remember the title of it, but there was a movie that came out fairly recently that turned a real woman's murder into a scary, ghost story. It received HORRID backlash and I have no reason to believe the same wouldn't happen to your screenplay.

 

[ChrisReaper]

What's the point of asking for an opinion if you're going to shut down all of them? Every single person who has replied in this thread has been very against the idea of using real serial killers in your work of fiction. Particularly a work that justifies them and uses them as a tool for entertainment. Even if they aren't active characters, using them as a plot device is still incredibly insensitive and rude. It diminishes real experiences and is ultimately glorified fanfiction. Not your actual work, perhaps, but anything using real serial killers for anything other than what they've actually done/ have had happen to them is.

Also, Bateman making a joke about Ted Bundy and referencing his crimes is still REFERENCING a real serial killer. Therefore, Ted Bundy was never an actual character in American Psycho. You plan on actually using these killers as CHARACTERS, regardless of whether or not they're alive or dead, active or inactive. It's not like Bateman and Ted Bundy cracked a cold one together and laughed about his number of victims. The Ice Truck Killer idolizing real life serial killers is, again, just referencing them. It's one thing to have mentions of these serial killers in your work for something they actually did. It's different to write something based on real accounts and to reference something that is true. Your problem is that you want to directly mention them for things that NEVER happened. In the end, Ted Bundy and all other serial killers in the world chose to kill on their own without any help from eldritch beings. To defend their actions with fiction is what's insensitive to the victims.

Everyone here is telling you it's offensive and insensitive and you're ignoring them all. Take it as a sign!

I'm not ignoring anyone dude, your the one whose getting all bent out of shape over this, not me. Again did you even read my last reply? First off, the characters are not being praised for their crimes, they are being used as instruments and avatars for the Old Ones, because they represent true and primal evil, an evil that might be present in all of us. That's what makes them so frightening in the first place. Secondly, I will again say that the Heralds are not active characters, they are dead criminals who will stay dead, whether I decide to use fictional or historical killers. I think your issue lies with using serial killers at all, fictional or otherwise.

 

[ChrisReaper]

Thanks for this clarification! I realized after my post that I was a bit vague but this is the point I was trying to get across by emphasizing referencing vs the idea posed in the original thread.

But anyway, please do not think I am intending to be rude. I definitely understand the appeal of your idea and do think that there are very valid reasons that you'd be drawn to the idea. However, the issue does stem from the insensitive nature of using real people who had an awful effect on the lives of other real people.

Often times with serial killers, the killer rises to infamy while the victims go unheard of and the families suffer. In the modern climate, this is in the back of many people's minds constantly. I can't remember the title of it, but there was a movie that came out fairly recently that turned a real woman's murder into a scary, ghost story. It received HORRID backlash and I have no reason to believe the same wouldn't happen to your screenplay.

I think you quoted the wrong person dude, lol. I think that was the guy that was getting the most bent out of shape over all this and making assumptions about my story. But if this was directed at me, than I understand what your saying and completely understand. I am leaning in making my Heralds, fictional characters, but again, I haven't made a full decision.

 

[cadence]

I'm not bent out of shape over anything. You asked for people's opinions and I am giving you mind. I have no problem with using fictional serial killers at all. I'm a huge fan of Dexter and The Prodigal Son and other shows that are very serial-killer-centric. My issue lies with the fact that you're considering something that would be insensitive to people are, to this day, effected by the actions of these serial killers. As Zippy said, I can see the appeal of your story and can even understand where you're coming from, but also believe your story would receive horrible back-lash if you were to publish it. It puts these killers on a platform they don't deserve to be on, acts as an attempt to justify their actions regardless of whether or not it's fiction, and uses real stories and victims as a source of entertainment.

I have never implied that these serial killers would be praised for their actions, so I'm wondering if YOU even read MY reply. I also mentioned that it does not matter to most people whether these serial killers are dead or alive in your story as it would be insensitive regardless, so I'm wondering why you included both of those again and then accused me of not reading your reply when I specifically mentioned both of those things. I don't think it's wrong to reference these people in your story. My problem lies with the fact that you want to fictionalize them and include them where you could just as easily create your own character for.

This will be my last message because I've made my point clear and you're being far too defensive to even reason with. Again, to answer your question, I think it would be insensitive of you to do and would encourage you use fictional characters. To me, it seems like you're really wanting to include these real criminals, but as most everyone else has said, I just don't think it's the wise choice. Good luck with whatever decision you make regardless.

 

[ChrisReaper]

I'm not bent out of shape over anything. You asked for people's opinions and I am giving you mind. I have no problem with using fictional serial killers at all. I'm a huge fan of Dexter and The Prodigal Son and other shows that are very serial-killer-centric. My issue lies with the fact that you're considering something that would be insensitive to people are, to this day, effected by the actions of these serial killers. As Zippy said, I can see the appeal of your story and can even understand where you're coming from, but also believe your story would receive horrible back-lash if you were to publish it. It puts these killers on a platform they don't deserve to be on, acts as an attempt to justify their actions regardless of whether or not it's fiction, and uses real stories and victims as a source of entertainment.

I have never implied that these serial killers would be praised for their actions, so I'm wondering if YOU even read MY reply. I also mentioned that it does not matter to most people whether these serial killers are dead or alive in your story as it would be insensitive regardless, so I'm wondering why you included both of those again and then accused me of not reading your reply when I specifically mentioned both of those things. I don't think it's wrong to reference these people in your story. My problem lies with the fact that you want to fictionalize them and include them where you could just as easily create your own character for.

This will be my last message because I've made my point clear and you're being far too defensive to even reason with. Again, to answer your question, I think it would be insensitive of you to do and would encourage you use fictional characters. To me, it seems like you're really wanting to include these real criminals, but as most everyone else has said, I just don't think it's the wise choice. Good luck with whatever decision you make regardless.

Again your making outlandish assumptions about the story. The Heralds will not be active characters, they will be long dead criminals who will only be referenced. No difference between that and the things they've already done in shows like Dexter and The Following. So I really don't see the point of your argument. You simply assumed that I was making these potential characters living, breathing people in the context of the story, which I was never intending on doing...and again I wasn't being defensive at all, simply correcting your assumptions. Their actions and crimes were never intended to be praised, they are reviled in the story as they are in real life.

 

[Delinquent]

That depends, what excatly do you mean when you say that they'd be plot devices? Would they just be referenced occasionally? Or would they play an actual part in the story?

 

[smolfluffball]

Again your making outlandish assumptions about the story. The Heralds will not be active characters, they will be long dead criminals who will only be referenced. No difference between that and the things they've already done in shows like Dexter and The Following. So I really don't see the point of your argument. You simply assumed that I was making these potential characters living, breathing people in the context of the story, which I was never intending on doing...and again I wasn't being defensive at all, simply correcting your assumptions. Their actions and crimes were never intended to be praised, they are reviled in the story as they are in real life.

I really feel like this is all because you simply didn't mention that the Heralds would be DEAD characters, and would just be referenced. I still feel like if you'd included that in your first post you wouldn't have people getting on you about this. I also have one point of contention with your idea, and that's that, to me, it seems like you are excusing the actions of the real serial killers by pinning the blame on fictional monsters. I personally believe that you can't just excuse real peoples actions by claiming that a monster made them do it. It would be more interesting if you created your own characters and had THOSE characters be manipulated and controlled by the monsters, instead of what you are wanting to do. It could and would probably be seen as insensitive to many people, even those who weren't affected personally by the actions that the serial killers did.

 

[ChrisReaper]

That depends, what excatly do you mean when you say that they'd be plot devices? Would they just be referenced occasionally? Or would they play an actual part in the story?

Well as plot devices, their importance is very significant to the story itself, as they are part of the prophecy. But they will not be active participants in the story itself. So yes, the Heralds are simply a bunch of references as these characters are very much dead.