Other How can we fix roleplay commitment issues

[Tove]

It is one of those things that comes with the roleplay territory, you'll have some wins and you'll have losses. I try to go into any roleplay thinking it will be long lasting because if I focus on worrying about whether or not it will fail I won't have any fun writing. I mean I don't want it to, but sometimes it just happens. Can't really do anything except move on.

 

[Windsock]

"How can we fix roleplay commitment issues?"

Don't leave roleplays.

 

[average ketchup bottle]

If the RP seems to be dying, try adding more interesting things such as events. If your story is about a war or something, have a major battle or other event to keep people interested and participating. That'll keep the RP alive for longer and seem interesting. But don't make events happen too often, it'll eventually feel normal and that means the events will not feel exciting if they're always happening, allowing for the RP to die. Also, don't make the events drag on forever. Make them end at a certain point.

 

[Devious Dilbert]

The problem remains, though, that those elements don´t exist on their own. For a player in an RPG to interact with them, they just have to play the game, they don´t even really have to try. In writing, on the other hand, information only exists as much as you craft it. Given players can´t read the world´s designer´s mind, that means that a pre-existing need to go through the process of "studying" the world via exposition IC or OOC is kind of necessary for them to be able to interact with the RP in the way they would a game. So, ultimately, I think my point stands. But I do think those ideas of a more interactive and rewarding world are interesting.

Still, experience counter-points it for me. I am a man of order- I don´t like to leave things to chance or allow chaos in my threads if I can help it, for anything which could threaten the RP´s ability to function. I systematized several things, created various mechanics for my RPs. Profession systems where money was taken more realistically, leveling, working magic systems, mechanics that balanced power levels or assured people could fill different roles without too much overlapping, etc... Maybe I just did it all wrong, but my experience with this sort of thing says people hate constricting their options in any manner. That people rarely bother to really read through the systems or even everything the GM specifically puts in all caps and pratically shouts "THIS IS IMPORTANT!!!" . Among other things. So while I can see your point and I do think it makes some more sense now, allow me to flip the tables here and say, this doesn´t seem pratical. Because in pratice, applying this is rejected by the masses.

I'm kind of confused as to what you're saying here. What isn't practical exactly? A strict system/structure? Or the appliance of engaging qualities in an rp? Because I didn't mean that you had to have a strict/structure. I was arguing for at least encouragement of interaction. Those were just examples of what interactions were and that their classifications are a lot broader than many people think

Anyway, I'm not one to judge whether you did it wrong or not because I wasn't there, but I can see the issue that people may not even want to read the instructions on very strict or advanced systems or structures when you have your rp set up very particularly.
I think the issue can be summed up with how passionate the players you have are about rp'ing with that amount of detail. The majority of players may not take the time to do as such, but other players will be, especially the players who actually like structure and whatnot. With effective advertising, you can find those who are interested and invested enough. In fact, I appreciate structure within an rp. There are the disciplined players that you seek that will stick around for your rp. And it's those players that you should make crystal clear you are seeking. That doesn't mean that you still won't get a few players who drop out though here and there, unfortunately. But I find out of those players who are willing to invest, it is usually due to personal matters.
One of the main rp's I'm in has a whole wiki article typed up for it. It's actually the one that I tagged you in too. And all the players in there were more than happy to take in the lore and participate. So, it can be achieved.

This applies even more where the other person can´t even affect you to begin with, such as the case with RPs. The most the GM can do is threaten to make you quit the roleplay, but seriously, who wants to be in a roleplay where you purposely do things you know will get you banned? This isn´t to say, though, that the GM has no responsability to make things into a good experience. But this has an important limit. No GM should ever go out of their project entirely for the sake of appeasing the players. If I want to make a certain fandom, I will not do a different fandom that I don´t like just because my players want to do a different one. GMing is not easy work and I shouldn´t have to waste my time GMing an RP that is not the RP I set out to create. The GM is there to make their RP- not the RP of "the voters".

Oh, definitely. In no way did I ever say that a GM has to go out of their way to create something that doesn't fit in with the aesthetic/lore/system of their rp and that was never my point at all. You can still stay within your own bounds and come up with whatever it is that you think would encourage interaction and inspire your players. Overall, of course, it is the GM'S rp. Not the players', but the GM's. But that is exactly why I believe the gm should be the one responsible for the success or failure of their rp.

Common sense still applies of course. Lacking in respect, making tyrannical pointless rules, being dick, those are all things a GM shouldn´t do. But the GM should be allowed to craft their own thing, or try at least. And one more thing: If the GM is a dick, the player has the option to quit. If the RP they are trying to make is just not something that can work, the players can quit. The GM fucks up, they get fucked up. But if even a couple players quit prematurely, the whole thing could fall apart for EVERYONE. Regardless of who is in the wrong, the GM always gets hurt by players leaving, unless they have such a basis to begin with that it doesn´t matter. But that is pretty much a pretty successful RP already, which is not the topic of discussion here.

Yeah, sadly, it is always the GM that gets fucked over in the end when things like this happen, but that doesn't mean that the GM is void of the responsibility just because we sympathize with them.

Why is the burden almost entirely on the player?
*Because they are the ones who can decide to leave or stay

*Because it´s hardly ever possible to appease everyone, and it´s rarely recommendable that the GM ruins the experience and roleplay for themselves for the sake of demagogy

*Because leaving has a disproportional impact on the player versus everyone else, especially the GM. The player can jump around in any number of roleplays, but the GM has a limited pool of options to begin with, making the punishment be rather overboard compared to the crime of not appeasing the player´s every want.

*Because when players make the meta- the player´s choice in what to participate in and for how long define what many GMs will attempt. By leaving prematurely and for the wrong reasons, the players may end up destroying the very thing they are looking for in the roleplay landscape. Of course, it´s not one person alone- but a mentality defined by this attitude can.

1. Putting the blame of the players for leaving your rp doesn't sound right to me. Firstly, because players leave for different reasons (not counting any personal reasons for leaving like time-management, familial issues, job, etc). If a player is not happy/and or realized that they are not interested in the rp, or unhappy/not okay with the gm because of the gm being a dick/just or being inadequate, then it is perfectly fine in my opinion to leave. And you seemed to agree to that too.

2. Well, I've already said the gm doesn't have to ruin their rp experience. But here, it sounds like you're blaming the players simply for being different, and I just can't agree to that.
I don't think that it should be anyone's fault for the GM not being able to please every player. Obviously, that's just not possible. And I agree with you there. In the case that the GM simply can't please everybody, those players who are not amused will quit. It's just that simple and I don't think there should necessarily be a blame on anyone here if the GM has been doing a good job at whatever they're doing. It just seems unfair to blame a player for being uninterested. If you ignore the fun component completely, it becomes just a matter of disinterest. And blaming somebody for what they like and what engages them is a bit irrational.

3. Again, I don't think that the GM is void of the responsibility just because we sympathize with them. But I do agree that the players have a lot of power in the life or death of an rp.
However, in reality, most players don't have the disciplined mindset of yours to stick around for rp's. Regardless of whether you think people should take on this mindset, most players don't. And I'm just gonna be honest you, they likely won't. And so people still leave when unsatisfied with the rp, which is just a natural response. Is it the player's fault for being uninterested? No. Is it the GM's fault for not engaging the player enough to keep the around? Maybe. It all depends.

4. Okay, I can see this. And this supports that creativity thing you said a while back. But this is the only reason of yours that I can rationally agree with. But even then, I still cannot bring the blame on the players because people like different things. And if people really like and enjoy the overplayed idea of a short-lived cliche high school romance rp over an innovative dark and gritty mystery rp, who are we to tell them that they are wrong in their preferences? People like what they are familiar with.
While it is sad that many GM's have to watch their rp's slowly choke out and die because of nobody giving them chances (And I've seen some beautiful ideas, actually. They just never gained enough interest) It again seems unfair to blame players for preferring what they are familiar with because they know that they will enjoy it. I get it though. More chances should be given. However, this is just the reality (although I don't necessarily like it either). Most people don't want to take a risk and spend valuable time on something new that they potentially will not like/enjoy when they can stick with what they are comfortable with. It's basic psychology. Though, it sucks, yeah.



I can really see now what you said earlier- of you pursuing how things should be, and me just doing my best to work with what we have now.
I forgot who it was, but somebody said earlier that people will just always be dropping out for whatever reason and that it is simply inevitable. Maybe so. Actually, yeah, probably.
But we can work with our understandings of what makes rp's alluring and try to keep the number of dropouts low. Like I said earlier, to me it just seems more productive than to wish that people were more committed. Why not try to cultivate commitment from your players actively instead of passively when you can? I refuse to believe that this problem can't, at the very least, be mitigated. And so, that is where I stand.

 

[Idea]

I'm kind of confused as to what you're saying here. What isn't practical exactly? A strict system/structure? Or the appliance of engaging qualities in an rp? Because I didn't mean that you had to have a strict/structure. I was arguing for at least encouragement of interaction. Those were just examples of what interactions were and that their classifications are a lot broader than many people think

Anyway, I'm not one to judge whether you did it wrong or not because I wasn't there, but I can see the issue that people may not even want to read the instructions on very strict or advanced systems or structures when you have your rp set up very particularly.
I think the issue can be summed up with how passionate the players you have are about rp'ing with that amount of detail. The majority of players may not take the time to do as such, but other players will be, especially the players who actually like structure and whatnot. With effective advertising, you can find those who are interested and invested enough. In fact, I appreciate structure within an rp. There are the disciplined players that you seek that will stick around for your rp. And it's those players that you should make crystal clear you are seeking. That doesn't mean that you still won't get a few players who drop out though here and there, unfortunately. But I find out of those players who are willing to invest, it is usually due to personal matters.
One of the main rp's I'm in has a whole wiki article typed up for it. It's actually the one that I tagged you in too. And all the players in there were more than happy to take in the lore and participate. So, it can be achieved.

I was saying that encouraging interaction via the kind of things a game can offer isn´t pratical in forum roleplaying either, by my experience.

Also, I didn´t say these things cannot be achieved. I realize the discussion is kind of going in a big tangent right now, to the point where we are both confused, but to answer your look into my RP there, yeah I know they didn´t take the time to look into the things. In spite of the fact that I make a point to explain even in search threads that I make things complex and very detailed. And said warning right there is the counterpoint to your "good advertising and finding the right people" thing. I don´t have pyschic powers and I imagine most of humanity doesn´t either. I don´t know the internal being and personality of the people who state they are interested. I expect only one thing of said people: that they ARE in fact interested in what I described in my search thread. As a GM of a non-fandom RP, my options are limited by what I am given to work with. I HAVE to rely on luck and my RPers to be given the chance to show how great and fun what I have to offer them is. Yet how can anyone do that if their complaints start at something that they knew was gonna be a thing when they signed up for the RP? In short, since a successful RP is defined by what people remain in it, and how many, and how long, it´s the players who define whether the RP lives or dies. And since the GM has no magical ability that tells who will invest or not, and due to the mentality I´ve complained about over this discussion they can´t even trust players to be loyal to the GM, to the RPs or to their own word, I´m sorry to say, but a lot of why that RP has such committed players is just dumb luck and personal pre-existing connections. The commitment potential was there before the RP´s idea even existed.

Oh, definitely. In no way did I ever say that a GM has to go out of their way to create something that doesn't fit in with the aesthetic/lore/system of their rp and that was never my point at all. You can still stay within your own bounds and come up with whatever it is that you think would encourage interaction and inspire your players. Overall, of course, it is the GM'S rp. Not the players', but the GM's. But that is exactly why I believe the gm should be the one responsible for the success or failure of their rp.

Yet that´s what it often takes to satisfy the players. If the GM is to ignore who the players are as people in the attempt to satisfy them, they might as well not be doing it at all. On the other hand, should the GM recognize that players have different individual needs and tastes, which may not align with said GM´s own perspective, the only way they can act in such a way as to satisfy the players is to reconstruct some fundamental aspect about the roleplay or some part of the narrative- both of which are actions which force the GM into the situation I previously described of GMing an RP that isn´t what you wanted. Beyond the common sense of being competent (making functional rules, actually having some semblance of a plot in mind, not being a tyrannical dick...) there is no situation where the GM should prioritize appealing over crafting the RP that they set out and proposed to create.

And while, yes, it SHOULD be the GM to be responsible for the RP´s success and failure, the fact is that with a mentality where you give up from being bored- something which in reality the GM has little control over, since they can neither truly always appeal to your tastes, nor control your IRL situation which factors in quite a bit- puts the real control into the player´s hands. A good RP isn´t necessarily a successful one, a good GM isn´t necessarily one you like. That may seem strange and off-putting but it´s reality. One can only imagine how many people put their hearts and souls into making wonderful RPs, how many people try to be as nice and diplomatic as they could, how many RPs were litteral one ups over several now successful ones, and all of those now just sharing one thing: the RPs in question are dead. For one reason or another, they died. And what marked their deaths? The players leaving. This is what marks success or death in RPs, players being present. Yes, the GM should be the one responsible for it, but the way success and death are defined for RPs does not make that possible unless what GMs say or do is the sole factor in whether a player stays or goes. That, unfortunately, is pratically the opposite of reality.

Using some tabletop gaming terminology, what the GM gets is the choice. When making a move, should you take the chance to reroll the dice before you even know how they will end up, either way either losing it all or having mediocre gains? Or should you decide to stake the best move, perhaps even the winning move, on just a single roll?
Should we GMs craft our RPs to appeal in such a way that we can maybe earn that arbitrary game of affection that is the common player, and end up with an RP that lives up only to something far below our goal as GMs, or should we bet everything into making the best possible RP we can, and hope that the worth of what we are making will be communicated to the players?
A bit of an issue to the side, but it is something I thought worth pointing out.

Yeah, sadly, it is always the GM that gets fucked over in the end when things like this happen, but that doesn't mean that the GM is void of the responsibility just because we sympathize with them.

The Gm does have responsability. But when compared to the HUGE weight of the player´s decisions, not to mention that those decisions take priority over the GM´s decisions (if I decide a rule for my RP, that rule existing doesn´t enforce itself, and unless you decide to stay on my RP and give me a chance, nothing I do will be able to swing you back), the clairty is that the burden is ultimately mostly on the players.

1. Putting the blame of the players for leaving your rp doesn't sound right to me. Firstly, because players leave for different reasons (not counting any personal reasons for leaving like time-management, familial issues, job, etc). If a player is not happy/and or realized that they are not interested in the rp, or unhappy/not okay with the gm because of the gm being a dick/just or being inadequate, then it is perfectly fine in my opinion to leave. And you seemed to agree to that too.

2. Well, I've already said the gm doesn't have to ruin their rp experience. But here, it sounds like you're blaming the players simply for being different, and I just can't agree to that. I don't think that it should be anyone's fault for the GM not being able to please every player. Obviously, that's just not possible. And I agree with you there. In the case that the GM simply can't please everybody, those players who are not amused will quit. It's just that simple and I don't think there should necessarily be a blame on anyone here if the GM has been doing a good job at whatever they're doing. It just seems unfair to blame a player for being uninterested. If you ignore the fun component completely, it becomes just a matter of disinterest. And blaming somebody for what they like and what engages them is a bit irrational.

3. Again, I don't think that the GM is void of the responsibility just because we sympathize with them. But I do agree that the players have a lot of power in the life or death of an rp.
However, in reality, most players don't have the disciplined mindset of yours to stick around for rp's. Regardless of whether you think people should take on this mindset, most players don't. And I'm just gonna be honest you, they likely won't. And so people still leave when unsatisfied with the rp, which is just a natural response. Is it the player's fault for being uninterested? No. Is it the GM's fault for not engaging the player enough to keep the around? Maybe. It all depends.

4. Okay, I can see this. And this supports that creativity thing you said a while back. But this is the only reason of yours that I can rationally agree with. But even then, I still cannot bring the blame on the players because people like different things. And if people really like and enjoy the overplayed idea of a short-lived cliche high school romance rp over an innovative dark and gritty mystery rp, who are we to tell them that they are wrong in their preferences? People like what they are familiar with.

1. First, what you said has nothing to do with what I said there. Nomatter who is responsible or not, you still decide whether to leave. That doesn´t change, it´s just a fact. Secondly, yeah something genuily not being interesting or the GM being a real piece of crap are good reasons to quit. Yet, there are also WORLDs of difference between something not appeasing your every need and being exciting all the time, and something not being appealing most of the time, or even more amazing at key times. The matter in question here is the difference between waiting in line to see a spaceshuttle take off and another is sitting in a bench staring at bread crumbles. I can see the latter being appealing to some, and you´re defintely not gonna enjoy being in the line, but the spaceshuttle is an incredible unique experience, while the latter is frankly something gets old quickly. The people working on the spaceshuttle have no responsibility to make waiting in line exciting, because waiting in line is not supposed to be exciting. It can be, if you´re distracted by something other than the line, such as hanging out with a group of friends, but that is something you brought with you, it wasn´t part of what the people in the line could do. If you decide to not go the spaceshuttle launch because you get bored with lines, it´s your own lack of effort and dedication to what you set out to do that made you leave, your own decision.
And you know what else? Unlike the spaceshuttle, the RP will DIE because of that decision.

2. I´ve explained the matter better previously in most post, but to answer what you said here directly, I am not blaming players for something they can´t control like not feeling interested. I am, however, pointing out that it´s the players who cause the most crucial impact, and the players who can choose whether THE PLAYERS stay or go. Investment in a written medium , especially when you yourself are writting it, is an active conscious decision, not a feeling.

3 and 4. Never once did I say players being different is a flaw to being players. I said is that it makes it fundamentally impossible to appease everyone and takes the control of whether they do success at it away from the hands of the GM. And while this doesn´t take away any and all responsibility the GM has over their own RP, it does mean GMs don´t have influence into something that, as already stated, pretty much defines whether players stay or leave in the currently popular mindset.
And THAT is the whole point of everything I said, in a way. The problem exists. And no one can control what you feel. We can nug at it with shots in the dark, but that´s all we can do. If we hit a string, it´ll be by sheer luck, not by our merit. So, if the mindset exists and is a problem, what´s preventing it from getting solved?
People just don´t care enough about it to solve it. The choice on whether to commit or not is in the hands of every individual. It doesn´t happen to them, it´s entirely in their hands. You said it yourself, people aren´t all self-disciplined. But not being self-disciplined is a choice and a habit. And the decision not to be, as far as I can tell, is the overplay of this being "just a hoby", as I said in my original post in this thread. It´s an overplay, because even hobbies take commitment if they are truly to be enjoyed. It may be idealistic of me, but the question I ask is which is roleplaying to you: Fishing, gaming, playing with your pet? Or is it getting drunk or high?

While it is sad that many GM's have to watch their rp's slowly choke out and die because of nobody giving them chances (And I've seen some beautiful ideas, actually. They just never gained enough interest) It again seems unfair to blame players for preferring what they are familiar with because they know that they will enjoy it. I get it though. More chances should be given. However, this is just the reality (although I don't necessarily like it either). Most people don't want to take a risk and spend valuable time on something new that they potentially will not like/enjoy when they can stick with what they are comfortable with. It's basic psychology.



I can really see now what you said earlier- of you pursuing how things should be, and me just doing my best to work with what we have now.
I forgot who it was, but somebody said earlier that people will just always be dropping out for whatever reason and that it is simply inevitable. Maybe so. Actually, yeah, probably.
But we can work with our understandings of what makes rp's alluring and try to keep the number of dropouts low. Like I said earlier, to me it just seems more productive than to wish that people were more committed. Why not try to cultivate commitment from your players actively instead of passively when you can? I refuse to believe that this problem can't, at the very least, be mitigated. And so, that is where I stand.

What makes an RP alluring is not always the same. There isn´t an immutable formula, because the second a meta gets established, it means that meta is just dragging it´s feet towards it´s own death, and there is no way to see it´s full scope or what will be coming later.

I know I am not being pragmatic when I come and criticize an established mentality. It´s the way people think, obviously they´re not gonna be giving it up like that. Who knows? Maybe someday, my ideas will be recognized enough to change something. Or maybe not. Most likely not. Yet, the fact is, I do see a problem. The problem is real, even if the solution to it is idealistic. The issue with that, is that the problems that steem from this problem will never really get fixed until this one does. And frankly, seeing how large of an impact this problem actually has, I doubt we can even minimize the dropouts at all without a collective aknowledgement of it.

So, what can I do? Why do I bother talking about it? Where this is the improving my views thing I told you earlier. And there is the fact that it takes an idealistic person to communicate an ideal. Someone has to be around and talk about the issue to raise awareness to it, even if just a little bit. Someone has to go out and act what they believe, talk about it and act towards the promotion of said ideal if it is ever gonna spread out. If the bar is too high for me to reach, maybe I can give the people behind me a piggybag ride. The only way to escape the problematic mentality is to have another mentality to go to.

I´m gonna stop now, since I nearly wrote a poem in that paragraph.

 

[Devious Dilbert]

I was saying that encouraging interaction via the kind of things a game can offer isn´t pratical in forum roleplaying either, by my experience.

Also, I didn´t say these things cannot be achieved. I realize the discussion is kind of going in a big tangent right now, to the point where we are both confused, but to answer your look into my RP there, yeah I know they didn´t take the time to look into the things. In spite of the fact that I make a point to explain even in search threads that I make things complex and very detailed. And said warning right there is the counterpoint to your "good advertising and finding the right people" thing. I don´t have pyschic powers and I imagine most of humanity doesn´t either. I don´t know the internal being and personality of the people who state they are interested. I expect only one thing of said people: that they ARE in fact interested in what I described in my search thread. As a GM of a non-fandom RP, my options are limited by what I am given to work with. I HAVE to rely on luck and my RPers to be given the chance to show how great and fun what I have to offer them is. Yet how can anyone do that if their complaints start at something that they knew was gonna be a thing when they signed up for the RP? In short, since a successful RP is defined by what people remain in it, and how many, and how long, it´s the players who define whether the RP lives or dies. And since the GM has no magical ability that tells who will invest or not, and due to the mentality I´ve complained about over this discussion they can´t even trust players to be loyal to the GM, to the RPs or to their own word, I´m sorry to say, but a lot of why that RP has such committed players is just dumb luck and personal pre-existing connections. The commitment potential was there before the RP´s idea even existed.


Yet that´s what it often takes to satisfy the players. If the GM is to ignore who the players are as people in the attempt to satisfy them, they might as well not be doing it at all. On the other hand, should the GM recognize that players have different individual needs and tastes, which may not align with said GM´s own perspective, the only way they can act in such a way as to satisfy the players is to reconstruct some fundamental aspect about the roleplay or some part of the narrative- both of which are actions which force the GM into the situation I previously described of GMing an RP that isn´t what you wanted. Beyond the common sense of being competent (making functional rules, actually having some semblance of a plot in mind, not being a tyrannical dick...) there is no situation where the GM should prioritize appealing over crafting the RP that they set out and proposed to create.

And while, yes, it SHOULD be the GM to be responsible for the RP´s success and failure, the fact is that with a mentality where you give up from being bored- something which in reality the GM has little control over, since they can neither truly always appeal to your tastes, nor control your IRL situation which factors in quite a bit- puts the real control into the player´s hands. A good RP isn´t necessarily a successful one, a good GM isn´t necessarily one you like. That may seem strange and off-putting but it´s reality. One can only imagine how many people put their hearts and souls into making wonderful RPs, how many people try to be as nice and diplomatic as they could, how many RPs were litteral one ups over several now successful ones, and all of those now just sharing one thing: the RPs in question are dead. For one reason or another, they died. And what marked their deaths? The players leaving. This is what marks success or death in RPs, players being present. Yes, the GM should be the one responsible for it, but the way success and death are defined for RPs does not make that possible unless what GMs say or do is the sole factor in whether a player stays or goes. That, unfortunately, is pratically the opposite of reality.

Using some tabletop gaming terminology, what the GM gets is the choice. When making a move, should you take the chance to reroll the dice before you even know how they will end up, either way either losing it all or having mediocre gains? Or should you decide to stake the best move, perhaps even the winning move, on just a single roll?
Should we GMs craft our RPs to appeal in such a way that we can maybe earn that arbitrary game of affection that is the common player, and end up with an RP that lives up only to something far below our goal as GMs, or should we bet everything into making the best possible RP we can, and hope that the worth of what we are making will be communicated to the players?
A bit of an issue to the side, but it is something I thought worth pointing out.


The Gm does have responsability. But when compared to the HUGE weight of the player´s decisions, not to mention that those decisions take priority over the GM´s decisions (if I decide a rule for my RP, that rule existing doesn´t enforce itself, and unless you decide to stay on my RP and give me a chance, nothing I do will be able to swing you back), the clairty is that the burden is ultimately mostly on the players.



1. First, what you said has nothing to do with what I said there. Nomatter who is responsible or not, you still decide whether to leave. That doesn´t change, it´s just a fact. Secondly, yeah something genuily not being interesting or the GM being a real piece of crap are good reasons to quit. Yet, there are also WORLDs of difference between something not appeasing your every need and being exciting all the time, and something not being appealing most of the time, or even more amazing at key times. The matter in question here is the difference between waiting in line to see a spaceshuttle take off and another is sitting in a bench staring at bread crumbles. I can see the latter being appealing to some, and you´re defintely not gonna enjoy being in the line, but the spaceshuttle is an incredible unique experience, while the latter is frankly something gets old quickly. The people working on the spaceshuttle have no responsibility to make waiting in line exciting, because waiting in line is not supposed to be exciting. It can be, if you´re distracted by something other than the line, such as hanging out with a group of friends, but that is something you brought with you, it wasn´t part of what the people in the line could do. If you decide to not go the spaceshuttle launch because you get bored with lines, it´s your own lack of effort and dedication to what you set out to do that made you leave, your own decision.
And you know what else? Unlike the spaceshuttle, the RP will DIE because of that decision.

2. I´ve explained the matter better previously in most post, but to answer what you said here directly, I am not blaming players for something they can´t control like not feeling interested. I am, however, pointing out that it´s the players who cause the most crucial impact, and the players who can choose whether THE PLAYERS stay or go. Investment in a written medium , especially when you yourself are writting it, is an active conscious decision, not a feeling.

3 and 4. Never once did I say players being different is a flaw to being players. I said is that it makes it fundamentally impossible to appease everyone and takes the control of whether they do success at it away from the hands of the GM. And while this doesn´t take away any and all responsibility the GM has over their own RP, it does mean GMs don´t have influence into something that, as already stated, pretty much defines whether players stay or leave in the currently popular mindset.
And THAT is the whole point of everything I said, in a way. The problem exists. And no one can control what you feel. We can nug at it with shots in the dark, but that´s all we can do. If we hit a string, it´ll be by sheer luck, not by our merit. So, if the mindset exists and is a problem, what´s preventing it from getting solved?
People just don´t care enough about it to solve it. The choice on whether to commit or not is in the hands of every individual. It doesn´t happen to them, it´s entirely in their hands. You said it yourself, people aren´t all self-disciplined. But not being self-disciplined is a choice and a habit. And the decision not to be, as far as I can tell, is the overplay of this being "just a hoby", as I said in my original post in this thread. It´s an overplay, because even hobbies take commitment if they are truly to be enjoyed. It may be idealistic of me, but the question I ask is which is roleplaying to you: Fishing, gaming, playing with your pet? Or is it getting drunk or high?


What makes an RP alluring is not always the same. There isn´t an immutable formula, because the second a meta gets established, it means that meta is just dragging it´s feet towards it´s own death, and there is no way to see it´s full scope or what will be coming later.

I know I am not being pragmatic when I come and criticize an established mentality. It´s the way people think, obviously they´re not gonna be giving it up like that. Who knows? Maybe someday, my ideas will be recognized enough to change something. Or maybe not. Most likely not. Yet, the fact is, I do see a problem. The problem is real, even if the solution to it is idealistic. The issue with that, is that the problems that steem from this problem will never really get fixed until this one does. And frankly, seeing how large of an impact this problem actually has, I doubt we can even minimize the dropouts at all without a collective aknowledgement of it.

So, what can I do? Why do I bother talking about it? Where this is the improving my views thing I told you earlier. And there is the fact that it takes an idealistic person to communicate an ideal. Someone has to be around and talk about the issue to raise awareness to it, even if just a little bit. Someone has to go out and act what they believe, talk about it and act towards the promotion of said ideal if it is ever gonna spread out. If the bar is too high for me to reach, maybe I can give the people behind me a piggybag ride. The only way to escape the problematic mentality is to have another mentality to go to.

I´m gonna stop now, since I nearly wrote a poem in that paragraph.

Fair enough, it was a nice discussion though and I enjoyed it.

 

[Happywriter101]

I think their fine as is

 

[Alvis Delle Pree]

There were dozens of times I was In an rp I was really looking forward to playing out, but for soon, everyone suddenly does not feel like posting anymore (and that includes myself as well, I'm not going to pretend I'm perfect or anything). I am really unsure how to fix this problem, because I am now pretty much unwilling to join any rps knowing that they are going to inevitably die on me.

Okay so I'm speaking more on 1/1 than groups. I've done three year long 1/1s and the key was a good partner (and I would say similar would apply to groups). And there are so many people out there, and I've noticed so many different expectations and experiences. That sometimes after you start you notice you just don't work, you just aren't interested.

I stayed in the RPs I was in for so many years because they were always interesting, characters we engaging, plots for fun, things were happening. Sometimes you just find your partners characters boring, you just aren't getting what you need out of the story or the other persons writing. Not their fault, and I wouldn't ever blame a partner, but you can't always match to the person you agreed to RP with or the group.

I think that issue is compounded in a group setting because you're not just looking for 1 other person that meshes well and you get along with long term . . . but 3 or more and that is tough.

I think communication can be a problem and for me that tends to lead to a disconnect from the other person. Most of my long term successes were with people who were talkative, made me feel like we were friends (and we totally were/are still) but that is sometimes key. I think a lot of people forget that their partners or groups are people and you just come to RP and go . . . and in between there is dead air and cold and you slowly drift away and forget there was a thread or email or whatever to reply to . . . and then you're going "shit well to late now, doesn't matter" and you find someone else!

But yeah it's so many tiny things and no one is perfect just hold onto the ones who do make you happy and do RP long term. Maintain those friendships honestly it's important!