Viewpoint Gods, divine mandates and holy quests

[The Great Sage]

Do you think that mortal characters interacting with supremely powerful entities (gods, spirits, ect) more often adds or detracts from a story?

What do you think is the appropriate level of interaction that a god should do as to not hijack or otherwise take away player agency?

Can you think of any examples in your life where interaction with divine characters ruined a story? How about any examples of it adding to a story?

 

[Jannah]

I think it can be okay if done well. When I use these elements, though, I prefer for them to be subtle. Like, the characters in the story may believe these deities are real and happenings in their lives they may attribute directly to divine intervention. Having mortals smitten by lightning or something seems too deus ex machina for my tastes.

 

[The Great Sage]

I think it can be okay if done well. When I use these elements, though, I prefer for them to be subtle. Like, the characters in the story may believe these deities are real and happenings in their lives they may attribute directly to divine intervention.

What about things like oracles? Also, do you think that a divine quest is better given by a powerful God, or by a minor God. Like... would you be more interested in going on a quest for Zeus almighty, or would you like to take a quest from a minor river god instead?

Having mortals smitten by lightning or something seems too deus ex machina for my tastes.

Agreed 100%.

 

[Jannah]

What about things like oracles? Also, do you think that a divine quest is better given by a powerful God, or by a minor God. Like... would you be more interested in going on a quest for Zeus almighty, or would you like to take a quest from a minor river god instead?

Agreed 100%.

Oracles are fine as they're along the same lines as prophets and such. Like, the people within the universe believe in their power whether they're actually literally communing with deities or not.

 

[Idea]

Spoiler: Stuff I Didn't Mean To Include But Accidentally Did

I think before we begin addressing the questions themselves, it should be noted there are many kinds of potential deities in fiction and the answers will differ for the different kinds of deities, as well as their intended role in the story. For my answers I will be dividing them into four types here, though of course there are many more possibilities:

Type A deities are what the type we usually expect from a monotheistic religion: A higher being inconceivably distant from humanity (or equivalent) in nature though not necessarily in attitude, and borderline if not actually omnipotent and/or omniscient. It should be noted despite being polytheistic, eldritch gods tend to fall into this category.

Type B deities are polytheistic deities usually inspired by the greco-roman patheon. They tend to have more limited powers or domains and are often portrayed as larger than life versions of humanity.

Type C Deities are usually characterized as "spirits" or something of the like. They tend to be expressions or the souls of something very specific, like specific people, specific objects, a specific tree or river... They have very little power and are often the basis for a magic system when present in fiction. These are the types that most often lack in humanity, being very localized and small forces of nature in how they act, though there are also plenty of cases where they do have human personalities.

Type D deities may not even really be deities at all. These are the pharaoh types, the humans (or equivalent) standing above others and making themselves worshipped by some work of charisma, or by their social/hierarchy status, or occasionally (though this one would be more debatable I feel) some form of mind control. They may sometimes be some minor deity or part-deity but as I said they may also not be deities at all, at least in terms of personal power and the nature of their bodies.

Do you think that mortal characters interacting with supremely powerful entities (gods, spirits, ect) more often adds or detracts from a story?

Well, generally I believe they add to the story, if in a small amount. However, it should also be noted that in most stories I read / watch gods are generally either effectively plot devices to get the plot moving (this can range from being given divine missions, to isekai-type transportation/reincarnation, among other examples), hidden figures who never themselves manifest but whose power can, to some extent, be seen (though the true source of such power often comes into questions as do those gods themselves) or antagonists. The two primary roles of gods, spirits and so on is often plot devices, exposition, part of the magic system or a final antagonist with limited direct action. In other words, they don't tend to make much of a presence in the story or have much in the way of direct interaction.

In most exceptions I've seen however, the godly powers are bound for some reason (often something to do with a policy/law among gods, or the deity's own distaste for acting upon whatever world / universe they may watch over), and the deity ends up being hardly different from a regular character of any other type.

Long story short I very rarely see deities acting in their capacity as deities as an active element of the story. So while I generally find them to be adding to the story, this may be because they have a very small role in those stories (or otherwise their role is not as a deity), and that small role tends to be something the type of story needs rather than one which specifically comes about from or necessarily requires a deity (such as the final antagonist, or a way to start to the story).



Three major exceptions come to mind to me about this. The first is the Percy Jackson series. I think here the gods really add to the story though it could be argued that's partially because the series is based on greco-roman mythology for the most part. However, I would have to say that the appearance of gods through various parts of the books in various roles is something which greatly contributes to the worldbuilding and the general atmosphere of the book, making the concept of it more immersive and believable in addition to the plot assistance the presence of those deities can provide.

The second exception would be the Magic the Gathering planes of Amonkhet and Theros. In both of those, the gods are a known presence and they play a major role in how the world and the society within those worlds are organized, including to the point of frequent direct or almost direct action (such as sending "divine" minions/servants/monsters to do what they want to do). Seeing how their presence and actions affects the worlds they are in is a major point of interest for me, and again has a strong impact for worldbuilding. Furthermore, they are active agents within the story that both help give shape to the plot and to the themes of those stories.

So in both of those cases, the gods added significantly to the story in my opinion.

In the third case, though they were just as central to the plot, this didn't quite happen. It was an RP I was a part of before it came to an end, about gods creating a universe. It was intended as more of a sandbox thing with little interference of the gods in what the others created and each god being effectively nearly omnipotent- only possible to defy by the hand of not one but at least a couple of other gods at once. The problem? Conflict between the gods is the only way for a plot of any kind to form out of that, and without it people (I believe) would quickly have grown bored of creating these little islands nobody else was really invested in, but even nobody wanted to be one to start that conflict- they'd instantly be one with a target on their back (IC of course). Any other kind of plot could be dealt with instantly, and many of the characters weren't designed in such a way as to stop them from wanting to solve those problems instantly due to their personality, quite the contrary. In the end things worked themselves out through an argument between my character and another which ended up escalating into something far greater, but even so I believe this is a clear example of where deities detracted from a story - even their own story in fact.



So all in all, in almost every case I know deities add to the story they are a part of - as a statistical not categorical observation- but each of those cases bore that either the deities themselves were limited, or their presence was. Either of those including matters of the personality of the deity. Unless the story is specifically focused as a sort of character-exploration of a deity, then deity's capacity to act as a deity tends to, in cases where it adds to the story, be limited to those instances where the deity can fulfill a role the story would otherwise already wish for (limited presence), or alternatively they themselves can be active characters in the story but simply aren't capable by nature or by binding to act in a way that entirely upturns it (limited power).

As a sidenote, I also notice that almost universally deities are given a far more humanized treatment if they do actually appear in a story as themselves. This is to say they act human - perhaps with a few differences in values here or there and perhaps with a few quirks, but almost always acting very human. One of the few exceptions I've seen of this recently was in the anime To Your Eternity, though even that particular god has shown great limitations in power and does not seem to be recognized as a god by anyone in the show.

What do you think is the appropriate level of interaction that a god should do as to not hijack or otherwise take away player agency?

I believe divine intervention within a plot (not a narrative, a plot, as a narrative may include elements outside of the plot itself) should exist in such a way that was earned by the characters through their actions, by the audience through learning of the foreshadowing, and occasionally if adequate, for setting up the plot. It can also outside of plot elements be added as a part of the worldbuilding in the narrative, though one should be careful not to let interfere much with the plot unintentionally. Oh, and they can also be quite an interesting source of magic in a magic system, as a deity's requirements for providing powers to their worshippers is something really flexible for one to work with.

That being said, this mostly applies to the more powerful kind of deity. Lesser deities can afford to have a lot more of a narrative presence and should generally be treated as powerful characters in general unless they aren't even that.

Can you think of any examples in your life where interaction with divine characters ruined a story? How about any examples of it adding to a story?

Guess I kinda ended up answering this one in the first... oops.


In any case, hope you like the read

 

[The Great Sage]

In any case, hope you like the read

You've raised many interesting ideas. I'm struggling to find the appropriate way to portray a divine being in one of my games, and talking about it like this is, I hope, helping me get to the end of my research.

The thing you said that makes me think the most is the part about divine beings being separated into two two broad categories - omniscient monotheistic gods and limited polytheistic gods.

Do you think that a divine being is more interesting when it has domain over only very specific aspects of the world (Hebe being goddess of the instant in time when a young woman is at the peak of her physical beauty) and has relatable human traits (the jealousy often portrayed by the Greek pantheon springs to mind)? Or do you think that a god is more interesting when it's perfect, all-powerful and all-knowing, like the Christian God?

And to expand on how a godly being should be portrayed, do you think that it's a more powerful narrative tool when the god mimics the morals, desires and thoughts of mortal beings, or do you think that a god should be nearly alien and almost impossible to comprehend?

Here's an interesting trope I found that sort of describes the sort of thing I'm trying to get at:

Blue-and-Orange Morality - TV Tropes

To say that questions of morality are thorny and filled with gray when they aren't being hammered between stark absolutes is putting it mildly. Because of this there can be great drama when characters who represent a wide range of moral …

tvtropes.org

 

[Idea]

You've raised many interesting ideas. I'm struggling to find the appropriate way to portray a divine being in one of my games, and talking about it like this is, I hope, helping me get to the end of my research.

The thing you said that makes me think the most is the part about divine beings being separated into two two broad categories - omniscient monotheistic gods and limited polytheistic gods.

Oops... I actually made a mistake as that part I began writing before I decided to change the approach of my response. I just kind of forgot to delete it... But since I ended up posting it now, I just edited it to finish the rest of the thought at least, with the two other two deity classifications I didn't include before.

My apologies for my mistake and any confusion it may have caused.

Do you think that a divine being is more interesting when it has domain over only very specific aspects of the world (Hebe being goddess of the instant in time when a young woman is at the peak of her physical beauty) and has relatable human traits (the jealousy often portrayed by the Greek pantheon springs to mind)? Or do you think that a god is more interesting when it's perfect, all-powerful and all-knowing, like the Christian God?

And to expand on how a godly being should be portrayed, do you think that it's a more powerful narrative tool when the god mimics the morals, desires and thoughts of mortal beings, or do you think that a god should be nearly alien and almost impossible to comprehend?

To be honest, though naturally as for most things the compatibility with the type of story and characters is key, if I was to give a broad answer I'd say my preferred is the inhuman but limited deity. A deity that has a perspective as a deity differing from mortals on a fundamental level, but whose powers are nonetheless limited thus allowing me to incorporate it into the story. The inhuman perspective makes sense for a being in touch with so many aspects of the world we probably couldn't perceive or think about, and who has control over things we can only cower away from. Not to mention that old thing about an enormous immortal lifespan. That perspective can also take unexpected actions and can help explore aspects of the world, characters and themes that others might not consider at all.

But with all of that said, that is simply why I find it more interesting. Again, I kind of have to give the cop-out answer but the kind of story you want to tell and the specific kind of characters you want to use are going to be the biggest factor on the type of deity you'd be better off using.

That being said, gun to my head choosing between the two options you presented, I do think a limited and humanized god/goddess is preferred to a Christian God wannabe, at least if you intend to insert them into the story. The Christian God is, simply put, not designed to be a character in a story. So much so that to many His inaction seems a direct contradiction to those characteristics (I do not believe it is, but that's a whole other can of worms). Ultimately a character capable of flaws, growth and generally more flexible in characterization (plus without the ability to undo your plot with a blink) is generally better. Even if you want to make them an antagonist, where them being a genuine threat is a good thing, you don't generally want to give your antagonist the characteristics of the Christian God (unless you intent to condemn the protagonists I suppose).

Here's an interesting trope I found that sort of describes the sort of thing I'm trying to get at:

And after reading that entry here I realize it's quite similar if not actually the inhuman type I was talking about haha.

 

[Daisie]

In all honesty, just about anything can be awesome for a story if it's done right, and with enough care. My favourite show stars Satan as a consultant for the Los Angeles Police Department. Somehow, against all odds, it WORKS.

would you be more interested in going on a quest for Zeus almighty, or would you like to take a quest from a minor river god instead?

The thing is that both of these can be done so well. They're simply two different routes the story could go down - the quality of them is entirely up to your own skill and the skill of your partners.

If the climax of your story is saving the world from the universe's oldest evil, awesome. If the climax of your story is fighting a single big, bad orc in the middle of the woods, that can be done well, too. The stakes are relative to what comes before it - and even that can be twisted with enough thought.

 

[cuzn]

my general rule is that anything in a story can work if written well. yes, even mary sues and self-inserts.

Do you think that a divine being is more interesting when it has domain over only very specific aspects of the world (Hebe being goddess of the instant in time when a young woman is at the peak of her physical beauty) and has relatable human traits (the jealousy often portrayed by the Greek pantheon springs to mind)? Or do you think that a god is more interesting when it's perfect, all-powerful and all-knowing, like the Christian God?

Spoiler: very long post im sorry im just a nerd for anthropology

in my personal case, since i'm both christian and a lover of using themes from real-world history and mythology in fantasy universes, i tread the line as delicately as i can with christianity - or with any religion and mythology that is still widely believed in the modern day. you won't offend many people by inserting the greek gods into your story, but the christian god is a different situation altogether.

recently, i've found that the delicate balance that's been working for me is that if i'm going to insert christianity or catholicism into a fantasy story, i leave it as a religion that exists within that story; that is, neither proven by the plot to be true or false. there's no denying that something like christianity or catholicism has a massive impact in a story (just look at the impact catholicism has had on real-world history and mythology!), but i don't think it's necessary to confirm the truth or debunk the falsehoods in those religions to include them in a story with just as much impact. some characters have different beliefs, and in a fantasy world, those beliefs often shift to meet the parameters of the worldbuilding and lore that they're set into, but the general vibes of those religions (i'm thinking specifically the vibe that catholicism had in disney's Hunchback of Notre Dame) is very heavy and the weight that it has can be very useful in writing a fictional story.

i just remember, whenever i'm using biblical lore or references, to separate it enough from the actual bible by inserting fantasy elements where i can that it won't be to offensive to... me lol, or to others who are sensitive to those types of themes. i try to be as fair to every side and every belief that i can, so i'm not entirely a fan of the plotlines of "catholicism/christianity is evil!" or "catholicism/christianity is true and you're all heathens!" when dealing with that small conflict you get in some fantasy settings where demons and angels really exist and are playable characters, for example

it's a very sensitive subject, overall.

on the other hand, pantheons of gods give more room for complete worldbuilding - that is, you have more room to shape entire cultures, entire universes and ways of life around these gods. speaking with my historical knowledge on the subject, the biggest difference between the greek pantheon and the christian god is that the christian god embodies the ideal - what we should be aiming towards, while the greek pantheon tended to embody what was real - that is, what was happening at the time in ancient greece. this is a distinction that can be really useful in making your own gods or in using existing ones for a fictional story. belief in the christian god often automatically demands a level of morality simply because of that, whereas with greek mythology, you hear all sorts of stories of the very nsfw shenanigans that zeus and apollo got up to, but they were still revered and worshipped as gods despite that.

personally, because i'm a HUGE history nerd, i love looking into the anthropological context behind how religions and mythologies shaped cultures and how i can rework that into building the cultures used in my own fantasy stories.

tl;dr
christianity is a sensitive subject for most people. easy way out: if you want to use christianity or catholicism or any existing religion in a story, i usually add it into the story as a religion within that story, neither proven true nor false, so that i can get the perks of the general themes that those religions have without making anyone too mad in how i choose to use it.
pantheons of gods can be really interesting and fun for worldbuilding, but sometimes lack the power and impact that inserting well-known religions into a story can have. (think: the impact of catholicism in disney's Hunchback of Notre Dame)

 

[The Great Sage]

cuzn beautiful, beautiful insight, thank you.

At best I suppose I could be described very loosely as a kind of Christian heretic (I dig Jesus, but the concept of any mortal man describing God to me gives me a horrible feeling of either being scammed or being lied to), and I'd feel very uncomfortable trying to find a compromise between my own personal beliefs and those of the mainstream. I suppose it's silly given just how many Abrahamic sects there are kicking around in the real world, but there you have it.

As a believer yourself, would you find it a bitter pill to swallow if you read something written by someone like me about this topic? I understand that Christian people in the modern era must have a thick skin about things given the cultural climate, but I'd like to know what you'd feel in the deepest parts of your being. How easy would it be to offend or upset you? As a very blunt example, I've always wanted to run a game that closely resembles the show "Highlander" but with Jesus of Nazareth as the protagonist. Too far, right?

 

[cuzn]

As a believer yourself, would you find it a bitter pill to swallow if you read something written by someone like me about this topic? I understand that Christian people in the modern era must have a thick skin about things given the cultural climate, but I'd like to know what you'd feel in the deepest parts of your being. How easy would it be to offend or upset you? As a very blunt example, I've always wanted to run a game that closely resembles the show "Highlander" but with Jesus of Nazareth as the protagonist. Too far, right?

i think personally... i'm an odd case, i think, just because i know that i've definitely used biblical concepts (some widespread and some of more niche knowledge, like the nephilim) in my fantasy stories just to add that extra little kick to it. i can separate fantasy and reality enough to not get so easily offended by fiction - one of my favorite anime is a wacky satirical comedy about if jesus and buddha were friends in the modern day, and it's definitely wacky, and i can't attest to it's accuracy but it's sure as hell entertaining.

so counting myself out, i think a line can easily be drawn of whether or not it's clearly meant to be offensive. an example being, if you write a story where the entire plot is "the christian god is actually a huge asshole who eats babies and everyone who follows him is either stupid or evil" then... yeah, maybe keep that one on a private server where you know everyone that'll be reading it. my personal opinion is as long as the overarching plot doesn't exist to prejudice the group of people that would be sensitive to it, it's for the most part probably alright. i hold the same philosophy towards most things: anything can be done well in writing if done right, and this includes mental illness, racial issues, sexuality, and different religions and belief systems.

you can definitely tell when an author is, for example, massively sexist or homophobic just by reading their books. (look no further than stranger in a strange land by robert a. heinlein!) and for the most part it can be the same situation with religion, just like it can be with anything. as long as you aren't using the characters or the plot itself to discriminate against anyone, for the most part you're in the clear.

the basis of it is that no matter what you write, religious or otherwise, someone in the world is likely going to get offended by it. as long as you can manage to avoid blatantly discriminating against a group of people, it doesn't reflect so massively on your character if someone finds the name "jesus" in a fantasy story to be outrageously offensive. there's a point when it's good to be careful, but at the same time, creativity has it's own place in that equation as well.

tl;dr
don't be beyond ignorant and prejudiced about it and you'll most likely be fine.

 

[Spoiled Bread]

Do you think that mortal characters interacting with supremely powerful entities (gods, spirits, ect) more often adds or detracts from a story?

Most of the time, it's simply plot device. You can change god figure to king, planet-sized supercomputer, random charismatic hobo with cryptic message and still achieve the same.

What do you think is the appropriate level of interaction that a god should do as to not hijack or otherwise take away player agency?

Depends on what kind of plot the people are working with. As long as the god doesn't take away the cool factor from the player characters or being used as a way for DM to railroad them I think it should be fine.

Can you think of any examples in your life where interaction with divine characters ruined a story? How about any examples of it adding to a story?

Well, once upon a time I played an RP about a kingdom split into 4 factions after the king died without appointing an heir. It lacks political backstabbing but it runs quiet well. Some characters just surrender their opportunity to be the king while some try to lobby the others to become their supporter. Later into the game, one of the GM's buddy expressed their interest and they seemed to discuss the character in PM before posting the CSes: surprise surprise, the characters were three ancient godly figures ready to lay waste to the kingdom. The RP was kinda dying so I understand where the GM wants things to go - unite all factions by providing the biggest baddie but the RP had been fairly grounded despite people throwing magic everywhere and religion or god was never an important point. If there should be big baddie, I expected it to be from an invading kingdom, not Evil Anubis & Co. It sure did kill my mood.