gms and plotting

[VALEN T.]

im someone whos only ever gm-ed 2 roleplays in their life:
- a zombie apocalypse one that was going fantastic until the app creators decided to take the app off the market :/
- a modern slice of life one that sadly didnt make it past the first ic page due to me disappearing bc of irl reasons
i also may be starting a new one very soon assuming nothing goes awry (im a bit of a pessimist when it comes to these things)

what i've noticed on rpn so far is that the grps that typically go on for 50+ are the fantasy ones; the slice of life ones ? not so much

and that made me think well if you want ur grp to last, how in-depth do you have to plot the arcs ?
(bc in sol [slice of life] grps, the gm typically provide a sandbox setting with time skips and "events")

so my question is to the people who've gm-ed any time of grp before (one that lasted a while in particular), & to the people who've taken part in said grps: how was the grp structured ?
how much room for character-lead arcs was there ?
did you have rigid chapters with strict quests and tasks the ocs had to complete, and how long did each quest / task typically last ?
how far ahead did you plan for your rp & how much of said plan were you able to follow through with ?
how strict of a gm were you, & why exactly do you think you were "strict" ?

e.g. for my zombie apocalypse rp, i didn't have any idea what i was doing at first but the obvious objective was to find a "cure"; i came up with events (not arcs) on the spot, and it was easy to run the rp bc every character had their own sub-plot going on too; some of the players started their own spin off series to explore alternate / past character relationships in the same world as well.
then for my sol rp, i gave the players a setting to rp their characters in & had little "events" planned; for this one, there was no "end goal".
and finally for the new grp, i wanted to go a new route that i thought guaranteed higher chances of rp survival: there's a goal the ocs are meant to achieve even if they arent aware what it exactly is at the start; there are quests and tasks and rewards and mysteries. basically it's a lot more plot-driven than my last 2 rps, and a lot of it is already pre-planned

 

[Murdergurl]

Well, as someone who has FAILED a lot )and I mean a lot) in their GM attempts over the past 20-something years, I can tell you what I did and maybe you can glean from that to avoid the same fate. I'll use my last attempt as a prime example.

First, I outlined the world. I gave it a history. A nice, rich history that delved into the past of a multitude of races and cultures. I also had a map. this map had over 75 points of interest. All of them were defined. I also had a list of races from which the players could choose. they were diversified while also staying away from typical fantasy clichés. I had a very specific goal for the players. In this case it was a fantasy horror. They were to be the entourage of a Witch hunter sent in to the country to investigate the disappearance of another member of their order. Their were 5 different roles that they could play as one of the troupe. Each role was defined, and listed several examples of the backgrounds/jobs that each role would be best filled by. So I gave the players races, roles, and pointed them in the direction of occupations best befitting. A bunch of lore so that they could get affiliated with the setting. it was all-original, so there was no fandom to reference.

I had a skeleton of a plot, with many splits depending on choices that coulf be made early on. I had an ultimate goal, and i had sub-goals that could be reached. The plot arcs were variable in at least a dozen different ways, forking out to many different aspect of the region, all depending on the choices the players made.

All this was for naught, though. As Each player made their introductory post, and then only one of the four continued past that. My GM responses took each person's individual background and incorporated it into their narrative from the GM standpoint. My responses numbered over 9,000 words easily, as I addressed each member individually. I put all my other RP projects on hold so that this was my sole focus. And what I got in return was a huge disappointment.

So I guess my advice to you would be: Don't put too much effort into preparing your RP. Don't have too rich of a lore or background. Don't go into too much detail with anything in particular. Because most people won't appreciate it, and it might even drive interest away. Seriously, it took me almost two full weeks just to recruit those four people.

Despite the fact that half of this hobby is READING (the other half being writing), it seems like a lot of people don't in fact, like to read. and to be honest, it doesn't seem like a lot of them like to write, either.

 

[Ace Cream]

did you have rigid chapters with strict quests and tasks the ocs had to complete, and how long did each quest / task typically last ?

It has been a long time since I GM but the last RP I GMed was a superpower task force RP so it's pretty easy to structure. Having co-GMs help a lot. One of the GM took the commander position, and I suggest if your RP have something similar to commander role then I suggest the GM take this role. Lots of healthy RPs died because the commander role was taken by player and then that player ghosted.

For structure we used to have several arcs planned ahead but we're not too strict on it. After the first introduction arc it should be alien invasion, then pantheon arc, but somewhere along the way one of the player obtained a dragon egg so we just whipped an attack on dragon arc and rolled with it. It's pretty chaotic and we never finished the RP but it was fun, yeah, and don't forget to have fun as a GM too, that's what's important.

Don't put too much effort into preparing your RP. Don't have too rich of a lore or background. Don't go into too much detail with anything in particular. Because most people won't appreciate it, and it might even drive interest away.

As a casual player, I can say that yes, a very very detailed lore can scare me away.

I don't think having a prepared lore for everything is a bad thing, but if a GM want a wide audience I think having moderate amount of lore is the best. Share only what is relevant to the current plot and let the players contribute their pieces but be ready when someone ask about something.

 

[Crayons]

Lets see... whenever I've GMed something successfully I've always had a co-GM that I can plot and plan with, and who will do their share of guiding the story, so I'd definitely suggest roping in a friend if you have someone who can fill that role for you or just bounce ideas off. My disclaimer here is that just because I did these things, it doesn't mean they are the right things to do. I'm way more experienced in RPs that are collaborative or more freeform generally.

so my question is to the people who've gm-ed any time of grp before (one that lasted a while in particular), & to the people who've taken part in said grps: how was the grp structured ?

I've only properly GMed one RP that lasted about 2.5-3 years, and it was a fandom RP. It started off as a generic FMA roleplay in a chat room which I wasn't the GM of and tbh I don't think anyone was actually running it(?), but when I brought it over to a forum and roped in my friend to co-GM with me it got going properly. The plot wasn't structured as such, but the characters had strong motivations and that pulled the story into certain directions. For example, my character was secretly one of the leaders of a terrorist organisation trying to bring down the government. When I made that character I was just expecting that to be a kind of side-plot for him, but people were really interested in it and lots of the new characters wanted to join his shady "freedom fighters", so the plots started to revolve around this group pretty much exclusively. Other plots involved various romances, a rogue alchemist and his bodyguard gradually bonding over their love of comics, a murder mystery, a revenge arc, and all sorts of other things.

Physically, it was structured as a message board with a sub-board for each location, grouped by area, and within the sub-boards a thread for each scene. Every scene was dated, and I had a thread that catalogued all of the other threads in date order, along with a summary. (Did I mention I used to be a librarian? XD )

how much room for character-lead arcs was there ?

It was pretty much all character-lead arcs, but sometimes we "encouraged" them by giving characters orders by their military superiors, or having NPCs create scenarios the characters had to react to.

did you have rigid chapters with strict quests and tasks the ocs had to complete, and how long did each quest / task typically last ?

No. One of the things that led to the RP going inactive was a quest that was supposedly GMed by one of our members, when my character and co-GM's character went on an undercover spy mission to get dirt on said member's character. It took ages, and he was really enthusiastic about running it at first but we started going a month between posts and it petered out.

how far ahead did you plan for your rp & how much of said plan were you able to follow through with ?

Planned ahead a bit at a time, really. Most of the time it was structured simply by having characters and NPCs act according to their own motivations and seeing how other characters reacted to it, with quite a lot of backroom scheming by me and my co-GM to bring in interesting little plot points or fun "bad" guys.

how strict of a gm were you, & why exactly do you think you were "strict" ?

I was strict as heck on accepting characters, and this was one of the biggest asspains of the whole thing, because I had what seemed like a constant stream of Mary Sues and obstinate power gamers trying to join. Because I always tried to work with them to get their character up to standard it was pretty draining.

I was strict on continuity. Everything had to be dated. People were not allowed to be in more than one place at one time in game, although they could have scenes set in the past and future, and this led to some friction with my co-GM who had one character they insisted on placing in multiple scenes. Also, no retconning or random shit happening for no reason.

We used a turn order that was stuck to rigidly.

I think my strictness on some of these points actually annoyed the heck out of people, although to me they all seemed pretty basic things to create coherent stories.

Anyway I eventually got fed up running this RP and herding the cats, and the lack of commitment from my two "co-GMs" when they said they would step up for me and run it for a bit, but just didn't do any of the work it needed, and it put me off GMing for a looooong time. But it was actually quite successful, looking back on it.

 

[Jet]

Murdergurl

Tbh it sounds like you made the RP hard work for people. You had a huge amount of lore and world building, with 9k word replies (about the size of a standard novel chapter). That makes the RP a work assignment. If I see 9k words as a reply I'm gone, because this is a collaborative effort. 9k words covers so much content, that I've been turned into an audience member, not a member of a writing team. I don't join RPs to be a passive audience member, but a teammate in building a large puzzle with many pieces. Producing massive, novel-chapter mega posts goes against that.

Some people are fine with a more passive experience, so please take my reply as personal opinions and observations on what many Rpn members (not all Rpn members) feel.

I do agree that you shouldn't invest a huge amount of effort, until a dedicated group is assembled.

VALEN T.

I would suggest providing information on a need to know basis. Post optional deep lore and tell people what they need to know when the time comes. Overwhelming members with history, names and places is counter productive. People don't care about lore until they care about characters. Nobody cared about the wall before John Snow manned it.

Content creators have innate interest in their own lore, because they are constructing a personalized world. But outsiders need an emotional connection to characters. Nobody cares about distant backstory in the beginning. I see many RPs that have massive, unending lore pages with mandatory reading, and that's not gonna end well.

About another topic — Making the plot malleable as you mentioned, is great because members have agency and are actually important to the story.

So props for not railroading characters to preconceived scene conclusions. I try being as objective as possible when dealing with scenes, because what characters do should have impact. What GMs should do in my opinion, is accept character input and create logical scene outcomes, free from bias towards any planned conclusion.

Trust me when I say this — members catch on when you control outcomes by working around or countering input. That devalues characters and most people end up disengaged. There are exceptions though, some are cool with being along for the ride. I would say the majority want influence though.

All that said, you need some concrete GM plans, but there are many opportunities for character influence.

--

Edit

Fantasy and Anime dominate RPN because tabletop gamers and anime fans are the most prevalent groups. Ask anyone on RPN and chances are, they came here because they —

1. Wanted to make OCs in anime fandoms.

2. Were tabletop gamers, and writing RPG characters is a logical leap from playing them.

 

[Murdergurl]

Murdergurl

Tbh it sounds like you made the RP hard work for people. You had a huge amount of lore and world building, with 9k word replies (about the size of a standard novel chapter). That makes the RP a work assignment. If I see 9k words as a reply I'm gone, because this is a collaborative effort. 9k words covers so much content, that I've been turned into an audience member, not a member of a writing team. I don't join RPs to be a passive audience member, but a teammate in building a large puzzle with many pieces. Producing massive, novel-chapter mega posts goes against that.

Some people are fine with a more passive experience, so please take my reply as personal opinions and observations on what many Rpn members (not all Rpn members) feel.

I do agree that you shouldn't invest a huge amount of effort, until a dedicated group is assembled.

Well, this wasn't a 1x1. It was a group RP. I actually do not participate in 1x1s. And yes, it was most definitely hard work. Especially for me. Since I had put forth so much effort in making and running the setting, I felt it fair to expect the same from the players. In Group RP, I prefer that the GM have the world mostly defined and that the players fit themselves into their creation. This from both a GM and player standpoint. Please, keep in mind that a 9k response was made to cater to 3 or 4 other players. Also, I didn't give them a one-post-fits-all response. The players were each addressed in kind. Not only that, but the requisites were laid out plainly that the RP would be literate, and multi-para. Writing examples were given, and writing samples were required as part of the application process. I know that my recruitment standards tend to turn away a lot of people. And that's fine. My roleplays are were not for those who enjoy short narrative. But that has always been brazenly advertised. Not everyone RPs the same. For some, this might be a lot of "work" and its a turn off. But juxtaposed, I do not enjoy RPs with tiny and plain replies.

...long story made short, I don't GM anymore. It is simply too hard to find a dedicated group of people that will put the same effort in.

 

[Jet]

Murdergurl the issue isn't "literate" or any kind of quality control or concern. The issue is that chapters as a RP reply, render my character and/or narrative static, like a cardboard cutout. Text RP is collaborative storytelling, like a relay race it's a team game where multiple people contribute to build a single scene, and those scenes build a story. Massive replies are counter productive to that. Productive posts never exceed 1-2k words unless it's a self contained narrative (acceptable in every RP when appropriate), but those posts aren't collaborative story telling/RP. Interaction posts that exceed 1-2k render other characters immobile and passive observers. That's not fun or realistic.

Also the idea that GMs should have every nook and cranny defined, and the entire story planned.... It honestly seems like you want an audience more than writing partners, which is fine if you want to write books, but I don't see how any of that makes for good RP. Members of RPs like this, can't make unique lore or effect the story. There's such a small amount of creative freedom there, and absolutely no effect on the story by characters. The characters could be replaced by any other and the results would be the same.

I'm sorry if I come across as angry, but we are diametrically opposed. And like many who take your stance/group of stances, there's some fictitious equation between length and quality/effectiveness. Good characters are realistic and relatable, and realistic characters can't possibly provide enough content for a 4k interaction post. Not to mention how awful that is to reply to, when you need to write passive observation for every beat.

 

[Murdergurl]

Murdergurl the issue isn't "literate" or any kind of quality control or concern. The issue is that chapters as a RP reply, render my character and/or narrative static, like a cardboard cutout. Text RP is collaborative storytelling, like a relay race it's a team game where multiple people contribute to build a single scene, and those scenes build a story. Massive replies are counter productive to that. Productive posts never exceed 1-2k words unless it's a self contained narrative (acceptable in every RP when appropriate), but those posts aren't collaborative story telling/RP. Interaction posts that exceed 1-2k render other characters immobile and passive observers. That's not fun or realistic.

They render your character and narrative static. But not everyone is you. I flourish in my replies when plenty of detail and setting is given. So I give people the kind of replies that I would want if I were in their position.

Also the idea that GMs should have every nook and cranny defined, and the entire story planned.... It honestly seems like you want an audience more than writing partners, which is fine if you want to write books, but I don't see how any of that makes for good RP. Members of RPs like this, can't make unique lore or effect the story. There's such a small amount of creative freedom there, and absolutely no effect on the story by characters. The characters could be replaced by any other and the results would be the same.

I made a complete world for people to RP in. It's as simple as that. The paths they could take in that world were varied and open to tailoring to their characters, of course. But I definitely had an idea from start to finish... which I think is more than most people in a GM position tend to bother with. Probably for good reason, as most group RPs never make it to conclusion. I have lost track of how many RPs I've participated in where it was clear that the GM had only though a very small portion of the RP through, and then strings the group along and eventually ghosts us all. Way too many times... so I had this thing laid out in multiple possibilities. I wasn't going to commit the same trespass that was done to me so many times before. And of course, these paths could all be modified to personally suit the players. but the skeleton was definitely laid out.

I'm sorry if I come across as angry, but we are diametrically opposed. And like many who take your stance/group of stances, there's some fictitious equation between length and quality/effectiveness. Good characters are realistic and relatable, and realistic characters can't possibly provide enough content for a 4k interaction post. Not to mention how awful that is to reply to, when you need to write passive observation for every beat.

No worries, we are all being civil here. :-)

There is a necessity of ample narrative to be had in order to set a scene, in order to portray the mood, in order to convey emotion and premise and emersion... you simply can't do this with a couple of paltry paragraphs. At least, not in the way I was running my RP. I'm not saying that my methods should in any way be considered a metric to GMing. But it is one of the many ways you could approach it. It just simply isn't for more casual writers, is all. Different strokes.

And besides... all this is a moot point. As I opened with in my first comment, I've failed over and over again as a GM. So maybe I AM doing something wrong. Truth be told, I don't even like GM duties. But if I HAVE to undertake them to run a setting that I want, well this is the way I would do it. If I have to e a GM, I'm going to do it my way. Because given the amount of headache that encompasses that, I'm not going to run it any other way that my ideal.

 

[Jet]

1. Story narratives move through action and dialogue. Standing there thinking about another character is passive by definition. You can enjoy being paralyzed while others espouse Shakespearian monologues, but not everyone enjoys passive writing for thousands of words. Also I again need to point out how you equate this with "high brow" but.... It's not. Please find me a critically acclaimed book that's 95% passive thinking, flashbacks and flower-emotion to fill pages, followed by an unrealistic 400 word speech.

Normally I would avoid a discussion about quality, but you keep elevating yourself over others.

2. Of course you need to have some story elements planned out, but planning all story beats in advance reduces character impact. You explain how you had a story planned from start to finish, that means the characters have limited impact. I can give you credit for allowing some changes with multiple pathways, so I do give you that as a plus.

3. You are using loaded words here to devalue my argument. I said interaction posts above 2k words are counter productive. I did not say 1-2 paragraph responses are an ideal.

700 words is not "A couple paltry paragraphs" that's a considerable amount of content for a back and forth during a RP. Many conversation and action posts require no more than 1000 words.

4. Again you sneak demeaning language into your point, calling me and most writers casual. Please refer to any professional grade writing, and find me the 4-5 hundred word speeches between two characters, and the endless passive observation that takes place during these massive speeches. You extol as a virtue something that has no place in serious writing, and call people lowbrow casual for disagreeing.

Scene description is one thing. Opening posts are boosted by a considerable degree via scene description (the tablesetter for my current project was around 3k) but once you've described location in the first post, further mass-description is redundant outside small developing details that alter original scene elements. Once tablesetters are done, the writing is about character interaction, which is usually a conversation. And the massive dialogue entries found in these "1,000,000,000 IQ Rps" are unrealistic, unrelatable, inhuman (outside of Victorian Era nobles) and meta game other PCs into inaction for long periods of time.

Murdergurl

 

[Murdergurl]

Jet
Well, as I said... GMing isn't even a thing I like to do anymore. So it really doesn't matter. You can read into my comments all you want. But tbh, you are assuming a lot about my writing considering that you haven't even read what I'm talking about. I get the feeling (maybe I'm wrong) that you are projecting some kind of unwarranted defense at my viewpoint. Maybe others have attacked you in the past over some similar disagreement. I dunno. But I get the feeling I struck some kind of nerve here.

This is just a viewpoint. MY viewpoint, on MY RPs with ME as the GM. Everyone does their roleplays differently. Some like a lot of description, some don't. I HAVE found partners in the past that reciprocate what I put out, and they love it. So while YOU might find a certain level of narrative to be "too much", others find that it hits the nail on the head. I don't presume to think that my opinion and preference on RP length and detail should be shared by everyone else, and I definitely don't think that my standards should be the metric for everyone else either. However in the event that I AM GMing (which I simply don't do anymore), there is definitely going to be a standard in place. It isn't superior to other people's standard. It is just MY standard.

Quality and quantity of a narrative is completely subjective to the reader. What is short and plain to one, might have been a great chore to achieve by another. We all (hopefully) are trying our best to create a great story with others, through the facet that we interpret it to be great. Finding other writers that share that same methodology is a quest in and of itself. I do my best to outline what I'm seeking to potential applicants to my RPs, but I guess it doesn't always get across. This is why I get frustrated. My issue is not what I'm requiring and putting out in my RPs. My problem is properly conveying this to people who are not going to be comfortable with what I expect. Though I have tried my best to do so. Clearly, you and I would never agree on the style of a work if we tried to collaborate. But that does not mean that either of us are wrong. It just means that we seek different things. My original post is just warning that uber detailed narratives and very filled-out worlds will turn away the majority, because it would seem that the larger mass of RP community does not enjoy nor appreciate that much work going into something. And that's it. Nothing to get upset about. Remember, it was the OP looking for advice here. Not me.

 

[PanOtterPus]

Murdergurl Jet I'm going to request you end your discussion as it's derailing the current thread. If you wish to continue, please move it to DMs.

 

[Murdergurl]

PanOtterPus I was done. Not much else to say :-)

 

[Grey]

Did I already share this one with you? You might find this lot handy. Tutorial - Grey's Learning Annex

 

[Whisker]

Im pretty sure Fantasy thrives because generally the same 20-30 individuals are rping in the setting. Fantasy is my main gig and when I rp, its the same faces over and over again so theres rapport there. Just my take on it. I think thats why it thrives longer than some others more than gming.