Fat Gandalf's Bar & Lounge (OOC chat) - Chapter Five

[Sherwood]

Not a bad idea there, Psychie! I could be persuaded to do some hand to hand stuff, so long as I get to go back to my shiny tank later on! With all of the SDC that Mario has, he's pretty tank-like himself. Might be fun to lay out a few baddies with a well placed roundhouse kick.

But I still want mecha action! That's what I think about when I picture Robotech in my mind.

 

[Psychie]

Yeah, the mecha are pretty cool. But a little variety is nice, too. I'm not saying that we do nothing in the mecha, just an occasional story arc with us thumping heads in a SDC level fight.

 

[Sherwood]

What do you think, Kaerri ? What kind of story tickles your fancy?

 

[Kaerri]

I want all the things XD All three of them sound fun to me. Although it would be fun to explore some of our out-of-mecha skills for a bit.

I do have a GM request though -- if we get into hand-to-hand, could we have a combat map similar to Sharseya? The squares help me a lot when feet make a difference (as opposed to miles).

 

[Sherwood]

Cool deal. I'm now looking forward to getting to hear the secrets that the Broadsword is keeping.

 

[Purr]

Kaerri Sorry, dearheart, but making the Sharseya maps, creating the tokens, finding and putting it all together to make it worthwhile would take more game time than I've got. =)

However, I can offer this - a fundamental difference in gameplay. Hand to hand combat in Robotech: Broadsword (I imagined back then and now) would be decidedly simpler than Pathfinder 1.0 or 2.0. There are a lot less positional decisions to make. Remember those Jackie Chan movies where Chan is fighting one on one while another one of his buddies is fighting in another room? And sometimes they join up, but usually each good guy is facing their own bad guy?

Kind of like this:

Spoiler: A scene from Jackie Chan/Sammo Hung's "My Lucky Stars"

Incidentally, Michiko Nishiwaka (the Japanese lady here in the black leotard) has a physique like Hitomi. I think her opponent (the good gal) has a face closer to Hitomi's in its expressiveness. =)

That's more of what I had in mind, not the mass melees in Pathfinder that are virtually required just to know what's going on. If anyone wants more info on this, let me know. For now, I've got to get moving (I have things I want to do outside the computer world). =)

 

[Kaerri]

OK. That answers my concern -- that I may not be able to visualize it properly. I certainly don't want to make loads of work for you, especially unnecessarily!

 

[Purr]

I love you, Kaerri-darlin'! =)

 

[Purr]

So, it sounds like you guys would like an adventure involving some mecha and some S.D.C. related action.

I can make that happen. =)

 

[Psychie]

I knew that I liked this guy for a reason!

 

[Kaerri]

I'm rather fond of him myself.

 

[Purr]

Heya Gang! It's funny how a single line can throw a guy like me for a double-loop.

So... two roadblocks have come up in Robotech: Broadsword that I need to iron out before it's all smooth again. The first roadblock here is one I'd like Psychie 's and Sherwood 's help with. Here's the situation. What do you think?

1. Toph, as a ASC cadet, learned about the UEEF's Alpha and Beta? Is this even possible?

Toph looks at Mario as he paces back and forth, her mind going back to the news stories that were reported about the UEEF Fleet as it was preparing to go out to the Robotech Master homeworld. That, combined with what her mother would tell her about flight training in the new Veritechs, she did recall that there was a pair of new mecha developed; the Alpha and Beta fighters.

(bold mine)

Since I read this, I wondered, having never seen a single Robotech episode, if this were possible given the timelines provided in Palladium games. Turns out (according to what I'm reading in the last sourcebooks Palladium wrote before they lost the rights to Robotech), I think it might remotely be feasible that Zyorna (Toph's mom in the UEEF) could have known about the Alpha testing, but I don't think it's likely. Wouldn't something like that have been top secret? Why share it with a Meltrandi when there was likely still some distrust between humans and micronized Zentraedi/Meltrandi, even amongst the UEEF's finest? Plus, why tell a Zentraedi/Meltrandi at all? They're destroyers, not builders. If Zyorna did somehow learn about this, why tell Toph about what was likely a top secret project? Wouldn't that betray the trust of the UEEF to talk to ASC about it? Is honor not a huge thing among Azonia's warriors? These are the questions this hyperactive mind of mine has been wrestling with.

Given what I've read, the chances are even thinner that Zyorna would have known about the Beta. Neither veritech had entered mass production until well after the SDF-3 (and Zyorna ) left Earth. The timeline below is from Palladium.

2009 - First Robotech War
2012 - Rain of Death/The Reconstruction
2013 - Veritech Hover Tank Ready
2015 - UEEF formed/Allied Zentraedi and Meltrandi agree to micronization
2018 - Logan Ready
2020 - Alpha tested
2022 - SDF-3 leaves Earth/Beta tested
June 2028 - Ajax prototype ready
April 2029 - Robotech Masters arrive/Second Robotech War begins
Mid-2029 - Ajax Ready
2031 - Invid Invasion begins/Alpha enters mass production
2036 - Beta tested again
2037 - Beta Ready

2. And there's my second roadblock. I discovered it while collecting info about the Alpha and Beta's timeline origins. Did you spot it? Kudos to you if you did!

That's right! The ASC AJax didn't fly under after the Robotech Masters arrived and started the Second Robotech War. This I didn't know at start of game (just learned it tonight, as a matter of fact). I thought the VHT and Ajax came out around the same time. Hmm.

So now what?

This one I think I can fix. I can just say the Ajax came out earlier. It's not that we really need to stick to the timeline, do we? I don't think the year hasn't really been that important.

What do you think?

 

[Sherwood]

Well, I see that the Ajax is not ready in the timeline until after the Robotech Masters invade. That would be one problem. But since we have gone through the first major story arc with Toph in the Ajax, it wouldn't be out of line in my eyes to use your SUPREME STORYTELLER POWERS (dun dun dun!) to tweak the timeline a tad. Or, we flip this around completely and say that she flew a Logan the whole time.

But, as far as the knowledge of the Alpha and Beta goes, in the very brief Sentinels cartoon (only 3-4 episodes were made. Very sad that it didn't go farther), it does show that the two new Veritechs were being tested out in Earth orbit, long before the SDF-3 and the fleet left. Also, with the two being the mainstay of the UEEF, they had to have had the pilots trained in them (MECT skill) prior to going into combat with the Masters, even if it was the Invid that they encountered.

Even now in Real Life, we have various military projects in the works that are years away from formal deployment that the civilian world knows about. Why wouldn't Tophs mom know of them and tell her precocious little tot a few stories, since she knows that her daughter is going down the path of being a pilot herself?

Finally, if these points are not enough to sway you to the possibility of Toph knowing about the two new mecha, Psychie can always edit the post to reflect that the UEEF has some new tech under their belts, and quite possibly, a new Veritech would be available.

 

[Sherwood]

Just curious, what game year are we working in?

 

[Psychie]

Dannigan, I am so very sorry if I overstepped and used my player knowledge of the other sagas here. I honestly thought that it would have been knowledge available to Toph, given her military background and the massive level of resources given to the UEEF fleet.

I see that Sherwood has come up with a few possible ways that I could have Toph know about the Alpha at least, but if I need to edit my post, I'll do so.

Also, I didn't realize that the Ajax was not available until the Master's invasion was underway. As much as I dislike the Logan given its (in my opinion) pathetic lack of firepower and armor, I can deal with the Logan if I have to. But I'd rather go to a older model VF-1 series instead if I can't stick with the Ajax.

 

[Purr]

Dannigan, I am so very sorry if I overstepped and used my player knowledge of the other sagas here. I honestly thought that it would have been knowledge available to Toph, given her military background and the massive level of resources given to the UEEF fleet.

Psychie Oh, good Psychie! Please allow me to apologize. I've given you the wrong impression! I hadn't even considered this to be a case of your overstepping and using player knowledge - I felt (and still feel) it's more of a case of my ADHD brain hyperfocusing on one idea and going full throttle towards trying to find out its accuracy! If anything, I am appreciative of you not feeling like I'm trying to second-guess you. You and Sherwood, after all, know more about the Robotech series than I do. =)

Well, I see that the Ajax is not ready in the timeline until after the Robotech Masters invade. That would be one problem. But since we have gone through the first major story arc with Toph in the Ajax, it wouldn't be out of line in my eyes to use your SUPREME STORYTELLER POWERS (dun dun dun!) to tweak the timeline a tad. Or, we flip this around completely and say that she flew a Logan the whole time.

Huh! Sherwood, I hadn't thought of Toph using a Logan (or as she mentioned, the Valkyrie). Still, I think Psychie and I share the same reservations for the Logan's lack of firepower as you and I have for the VHT's EU-11 rifle (especially when the laser cannon Mario carries along with his mega-suit is a better gun! What the heck!). Psychie, I don't feel comfortable rewriting Toph being in a Logan or VF-1S at all. So, no worries, there. And Kaerri? Of course, you're welcome to chime in here if you have anything to add. =)

But, as far as the knowledge of the Alpha and Beta goes, in the very brief Sentinels cartoon (only 3-4 episodes were made. Very sad that it didn't go farther), it does show that the two new Veritechs were being tested out in Earth orbit, long before the SDF-3 and the fleet left.

O.K. In Palladium's telling, the beta was being tested the same year the SDF-3 launched. So you're saying in Robotech: Sentinels, prior to the SDF-3's launch, the Alpha and Beta not only had been made, but both had been tested publicly (like they showed it on camera to the media and the public)? Is that the case? I can see arguments on both sides for testing something secretly or without secrecy in Earth orbit. How did Harmony Gold make that appear?

Also, with the two being the mainstay of the UEEF, they had to have had the pilots trained in them (MECT skill) prior to going into combat with the Masters, even if it was the Invid that they encountered.

I can see the logic here, but I can also see the logic against this argument. The Beta didn't even reach mass production until 15 whole years after the SDF-3 left Earth. I can't imagine the UEEF training pilots for a vehicle they wouldn't even pilot in combat (not just test) for a decade and a half.

Even now in Real Life, we have various military projects in the works that are years away from formal deployment that the civilian world knows about. Why wouldn't Tophs mom know of them and tell her precocious little tot a few stories, since she knows that her daughter is going down the path of being a pilot herself?

Yes, but in Real Life, everyone on Earth is still alive and 70% of the world and planet has not been destroyed by the Zentraedi. In my head, the post-apocalyptic world of Robotech: Broadsword is kind of like Rifts minus the magic and dimensional portals. Earth is very much like one big Mad Max movie with small parts resembling Masamune Shirow's Appleseed. No world wide web. No Google, Amazon, etc. And given the military state of affairs, no leaked secrets under threat of heavy punishment. Again, in my head.

As for Zyorna not being allowed that information at all, I already covered that in my previous post. In short, if the Alpha and Beta were top-secret military test veritechs (and the very future of humanity), why would the UEEF trust anyone outside of those projects? Then again, if for whatever reason, the UEEF publicized their testing to the public, then everyone knew and all is well.

But which is it? That's the question I can't quite find in Palladium's books.

I see that Sherwood has come up with a few possible ways that I could have Toph know about the Alpha at least, but if I need to edit my post, I'll do so.

That's the core of my questioning here - do we have to edit at all or should I for the sake of accuracy?

It would be clear if, say, a PC we had said, 'Oh, the Haydonites will meet with the SDF-3 years from now." To which you know I would have to step in and ask, "And how in the heck did your character know that?"

Just curious, what game year are we working in?

And that's another question I'll have to reconsider the answer for. You've seen me post many times about how the VHTs and Ajaxs were virtually brand-new as far as mecha went (under 3 years old). Having put Palladium's timeline of events together, that's just not possible. More thinking is required! Wheeeeeeeeeeeee! 8D

 

[Psychie]

It seems that the easiest and fastest way forward without derailing the scene is for me to edit my post to remove the specifics of the Alpha and Beta, and just have Toph make the guess that the UEEF has some new mecha available to them the the Broadsword might have in their hangar.

Will that be sufficient? I don't want to hold up the game any longer than it has already.

 

[Sherwood]

O.K. In Palladium's telling, the beta was being tested the same year the SDF-3 launched. So you're saying in Robotech: Sentinels, prior to the SDF-3's launch, the Alpha and Beta not only had been made, but both had been tested publicly (like they showed it on camera to the media and the public)? Is that the case? I can see arguments on both sides for testing something secretly or without secrecy in Earth orbit. How did Harmony Gold make that appear?

The brief episode that they had the Alpha and Beta in testing around Earth orbit was just them going through the link-up testing, but there was no indication that it was in any way a public event. Just not enough info to go on.

I can see the argument from both sides. On one hand, why would Zyorna know about the new Veritechs in testing? In the first edition books for Macros setting, the Zentraedi were not allowed to learn how to pilot a Veritech at all, and the only reason that Myria Sterling was allowed to fly with Max is that she was the first, and the rule hadn't been implemented yet. That had changed in the Sentinels setting, but for the most part, the Zentraedi were set to operate their new Z1 and Z2 Battle Pods, and not fly the Veritechs.

On the other, why not have some knowledge of the new mecha be known to the military? As far as the ASC goes, the Logan and Ajax are newer, and in their own way might be regarded as better, than the Alpha and Beta. Or, the ASC mecha is just what was developed for the defense of Earth, and was never expected to be needed as anything other than a peacekeeping force.

All in all, it falls in Dann's lap as our Storyteller to make the call.

 

[Purr]

1. Sure! Thanks, Psychie!

2. I think I'll go ahead and change the Robotech: Broadsword timeline to say the Ajax, Logan, and Veritech Hover Tank came out at the same time. But when? What would make the best sense for the story?

Spoiler: Just another Dannigan brainstorm here

(Just thinking out loud here. Feel free to comment if you like.) Logic suggests the Wild Cards would be active sometime between 2022 and April of 2029 (after the SDF-3 left Earth and before the Robotech Masters come to Earth). I got it into my head that the VHT and Ajax were new at the time the Wild Cards first take off. That made sense for my story and still has a hold there and a necessary one. These years are (according to Palladium) a time of relative peace and security for Earth. The A.S.C. is arguably at its strongest with Supreme Commander Leonard ready for anything and finally in a position to protect Earth as he sees fit.

On a Game Master note, telling you the year is something your characters should indeed know, but it comes with a price - as players, if I follow the timeline as Palladium has written it, you will be able to gauge how long you'll have until the Second Robotech War (the coming of the Robotech Masters). That provides you with an unfair advantage, but that advantage need not be used. I certainly don't want any thoughts like, "Oh, we have all the time in the world until the Robotech Masters show up," or "We'd better get moving! They'll be here in x months!!" Even if innocently said, that wrecks the tension in the game when it comes to the Second Robotech War, or worse, throws the game off considerably before their arrival.

But I don't have to hold to this timeline. I learned long ago that my games are my own and in them, I do as I please for the fun and fairness of all (myself included). =)

Instead of what I had originally, let's go with the year 2029. The Ajax, Logan, and Veritech Hover Tank came out in 2027 or so. I still want them to be virtually new compared to the destroids and Valkyries for game balance reasons. This is one reason General Steele wanted the Veritech Hover Tank back and I'm sure you'll remember Colonel Sharp's orders to the Wild Cards to destroy the Ajax if it went down so the bad guys would not get its technology. Those are two elements I still want in the game.

The month? It's hurricane season (I bet you'll recall the tornado that happened the day before today in-game). Hurricane season begins on May 15th... Hmm!

The date in the game at present is May 18th, 2029. =)

3. Let's say Toph knows nothing about the Alpha or Beta. That is the simplest fix. Whether or not Zyorna did before she left is unclear to Toph. Being an honorable warrior (just like Toph's dad), Zyorna gave no indication she knew anything about the Alpha and Beta.

That said, it is reasonable for the Wild Cards to surmise and declare that, the UEEF being what it is, has to have some kind of new mecha, weaponry, defenses in the future! Besides the Broadsword, what in the heck are they? Does everyone have a Super Tomahawk or what? And what makes this model Tomahawk "super" after all? And just what is Cera really up to?

What do you think of these solutions?

Back to the game unless I've missed something or any of you have questions?

 

[Sherwood]

All of that works for me. I was holding off on posting until this was settled, so now I am free to jump back in, with the understanding that the Alpha and Beta are still mystery mecha to us.

 

[Psychie]

I made the edit to my post, saying that there was a program to develop new and secret mecha for the UEEF, but Toph doesn't have any details other than that, a fact that shouldn't be out of the realm of possibilities for her to know. I hope that will be sufficient to our needs.

 

[Purr]

That's reasonable and it works. Thanks again, Psychie! (I'm up late again thanks to a headache.) =)

Psychie, you know a bit about the Robotech series, don't you? What do you think about the changes I've recommended?

 

[Sherwood]

I made the edit to my post, saying that there was a program to develop new and secret mecha for the UEEF, but Toph doesn't have any details other than that, a fact that shouldn't be out of the realm of possibilities for her to know. I hope that will be sufficient to our needs.

Thanks for the change, Psy. I'll make my post that I've been waiting on now.

 

[Psychie]

That's reasonable and it works. Thanks again, Psychie! (I'm up late again thanks to a headache.) =)

Psychie, you know a bit about the Robotech series, don't you? What do you think about the changes I've recommended?

First, sorry for your headache. I know from personal experience that they suck.

Second, sorry again for putting a pause into your hyperactive brain on this game. Was not intentional, and thanks for understanding!

Third, I am liking the changes made. Its not like we have to tell you, but this is your game, and if you want to make changes to the timeline, go for it! That helps to keep people like me and Sherwood from knowing too much in advance of the story!

 

[Purr]

Sherwood I saw this and thought you might be interested (if you haven't seen it already).

Spoiler: Why Was Southern Cross Cancelled?

This was posted on 2 Aug, 2018.