Literature Discussion: Fandoms with Creators Who Promote Hate and Cause Harm [updated title]

[bastion]

Also not gonna @ anyone with this, but since Inno mentioned what Cosmo said I went back to check since I hadn't seen it.

I've stated multiple times that I believe it is okay to enjoy with content created by harmful people as long as you interact with it critically. It's important to consume all media critically, even stuff that seems perfectly harmless and wholesome.

All art is going to have the biases of the author, some of which may be actively hateful and harmful, like with JKR, but there are also those who have internalized smaller biases such as stereotypes about certain groups of people. It's important to learn to critically engage with what you consume, not to tear it apart, but so you can be aware of those biases and ensure you don't internalize them.

It's perfectly fine to enjoy things that are flawed or even outright bad, so long as you are able to be aware of where the problems are.

Honestly, more than whether it's okay to like that stuff, what I want to discuss is when is it no longer worth remaining in a fandom?

That's a subjective question, of course. It will vary from person to person.

I just wonder if knowing that the creator of a franchise is spreading hate and harm, is nostalgia really worth overlooking that to continue to engage with their creation?

I find it harder and harder to believe that roleplay and creating fanworks for HP is harmless. It may not finacially support JKR, but it does keep her in the spotlight. So long as HP is talked about, it remains a massive presence online, that JKR stands atop.

 

[Cosmo]

Also not gonna @ anyone with this, but since Inno mentioned what Cosmo said I went back to check since I hadn't seen it.

I've stated multiple times that I believe it is okay to enjoy with content created by harmful people as long as you interact with it critically. It's important to consume all media critically, even stuff that seems perfectly harmless and wholesome.

All art is going to have the biases of the author, some of which may be actively hateful and harmful, like with JKR, but there are also those who have internalized smaller biases such as stereotypes about certain groups of people. It's important to learn to critically engage with what you consume, not to tear it apart, but so you can be aware of those biases and ensure you don't internalize them.

It's perfectly fine to enjoy things that are flawed or even outright bad, so long as you are able to be aware of where the problems are.

Honestly, more than whether it's okay to like that stuff, what I want to discuss is when is it no longer worth remaining in a fandom?

That's a subjective question, of course. It will vary from person to person.

I just wonder if knowing that the creator of a franchise is spreading hate and harm, is nostalgia really worth overlooking that to continue to engage with their creation?

I find it harder and harder to believe that roleplay and creating fanworks for HP is harmless. It may not finacially support JKR, but it does keep her in the spotlight. So long as HP is talked about, it remains a massive presence online, that JKR stands atop.

Gonne be straight with you, still have no idea what you are actually trying to advocate.

Nothing in this has seemed like you were trying to engage in a discussion and more you wanted to see how many people supported your personal belief regarding creators and their works. More to the point, the 'updated title' is very confrontational and gives the idea that anyone who does not abide by your initial premises is somehow promoting hate and advocating the cause of harm which... you know, doesn't bode well for the whole 'creating a discussion' thing.

And this latest post is just as odd as the rest. On one hand, you're saying its fine to separate the creator from the created and to just be mindful of what you read, which is fair enough, but then you end it by circling back to,' Buttttt I dunno, seems like you shouldn't separate them at all cause like, harm,' and so you don't believe it is fine and most of this post was just a giant nothingburger.

Can you just underline what it is you are advocating?

 

[HauntedAnxiety]

I'm a big fan of Lovecraft, even if he was a horrible racist. Separate the creator from the creation.
Also, headcanon all of JK's characters as trans. Just to make her mad about it somewhere.

 

[BittyBobcat]

Heyo. Nonbinary person here.

First off, I don't think anyone really needs this and I can't speak for the entire community, but for the sake of others' comfort: If I anyone ever asked me, they would have my permission to enjoy Harry Potter, and, while this is not a universal opinion, the majority of the trans folks I've talked to about it share that view. Now, that could be bias in which trans folks I hang out with and it is pretty anecdotal evidence, but it does seem like a valid thing to at the very least consider conceptually (that being that the majority of the communities JKR is bigoted towards might not even care if you or anyone else likes Harry Potter or not, and that some of us actively enjoy it). That doesn't inherently speak on the morality of it, I suppose, since that doesn't inherently determine whether the act itself is harmful or not, but it does still have bearing on the matter.

I think of it somewhat similarly to Autism Speaks (terrible charity, by the way, they don't support autistic people at all and oftentimes actively harm them). Autism Speaks promoted something known as "person first activism", meaning that they said it was wrong to say "autistic person", that you should say "person with autism" instead because putting autism first would mean that you're "defining them by their autism." It may sound like a nice gesture at first, but the thing is that I have never seen a single autistic person, myself included, agree with it. I've seen far more autistic people speak out against it because it promotes language-based activism that takes attention away from actual autistic problems and awareness (ex: disability rights, educating about sensory issues, normalizing certain things like stimming, etc). More directly, it promotes an idea that none of us were consulted on and most of us actively disagree with while claiming that it's helping us.

Now, obviously this situation is a bit different. It's less definitive whether most trans and jewish folks resent people engaging with Harry Potter or not. It's also not going to take attention away from an issue for somebody to just not talk about or engage with Harry Potter. However, my main point is that the opinion of the affected groups should have some bearing on this discussion because ultimately they would be the ones that would be theoretically facing more transphobia/antisemitism if Harry Potter were to be engaged with more. This entire argument hinges on whether this would cause harm or not, and, if the majority of the people who would be affected by it say it wouldn't, then wouldn't it be disengenous to keep arguing that it's immoral to engage with Harry Potter content?

Unfortunately, we can't really prove which way the majority opinion lies, so that line of thinking is more of a consideration to make than a definitive argument, but I thought it would be an interesting addition to the conversation nonetheless.


An argument that's a bit more concrete (or as concrete as anything else in this thread is since this is all speculation, anyway) is that engaging with any "harmful" fandom in a way that is positive toward the people it harms does more good than not engaging with it at all.

Most popular social media algorithms aren't sharing things based only on what's popular. If you're an avid youtube user, your reccomendations should be full of things you specifically would find interesting (or that you at least might click on). The same goes for other social media sites like Instagram or Twitter (even if the latter is soon to be dead). For this reason, algorithms also generally find things you're likely to agree with. For example, a person who leaned toward left-wing politics and watched videos about that would be reccommended videos about politics, yes, but they would likely be reccomended videos specifically about left-wing politics. I like watching videos about trans issues, but I don't get reccommended videos where people are saying that trans people are monsters and such because I don't watch videos like that, and reccommending them wouldn't boost viewer retention.

To put this all in the context of Harry Potter again, someone who agrees with the antisemetic/transphobic aspects of Harry Potter and its author would be getting reccommendations about Harry Potter specifically where people are supporting those elements of it/not talking about them at all. Someone who likes Harry Potter and doesn't like those aspects of it would get reccommendations about it without those topics/where those topics are critically discussed. Someone who is on the fence, however, might get both. That's where fandom engagement with positive attitudes toward people who would be harmed by the fandom comes in. If there's no content about that, then the only thing that on-the-fencer would see is anti-trans, antisemetic rhetoric. They would be shoved down a pipeline of content with one homogenous (and, frankly, shitty) view.

And, mind you, I'm not necessarily talking about someone who guys "oh, I don't know..." when asked about transphobia/antisemitism. This could be someone that simply hasn't had reason to to form an opinion about it before, doesn't know JKR is a transphobe/antisemetic, does not critically engage with media, or any number of things.

Now, this is a bit different on less-personalized algorithms such as Ao3 and other fanfiction sites. This, however, faces the same idea. If everyone who is not transphobic/antisemetic simply leaves the fandom, there will be no content left that actively disagrees with those viewpoints. When people share Harry Potter fics, there wouldn't be any that acknowledge that JKR is a shitty person. No one would be critically engaged to think about the problems in Harry Potter. This goes for RP too, as well as any other fandom space.

Maybe you not engaging with Harry Potter will make it slightly less likely to be recommended. Maybe a mass leaving of everyone who hates JKR from the Harry Potter fandom would make it less popular, but it wouldn’t go away entirely. That would just make sure that only people who agree with JKR promote Harry Potter, and that anyone who reads the books innocent of this knowledge and then enters the fandom is sure to be met with hordes harmful propaganda with absolutely nothing to contest it.

 

[Jannah]

Heyo. Nonbinary person here.

First off, I don't think anyone really needs this and I can't speak for the entire community, but for the sake of others' comfort: If I anyone ever asked me, they would have my permission to enjoy Harry Potter, and, while this is not a universal opinion, the majority of the trans folks I've talked to about it share that view. Now, that could be bias in which trans folks I hang out with and it is pretty anecdotal evidence, but it does seem like a valid thing to at the very least consider conceptually (that being that the majority of the communities JKR is bigoted towards might not even care if you or anyone else likes Harry Potter or not, and that some of us actively enjoy it). That doesn't inherently speak on the morality of it, I suppose, since that doesn't inherently determine whether the act itself is harmful or not, but I does still have bearing on the matter.

I think of it somewhat similarly to Autism Speaks (terrible charity, by the way, they don't support autistic people at all and oftentimes actively harm them). Autism Speaks promoted something known as "person first activism", meaning that they said it was wrong to say "autistic person", that you should say "person with autism" instead because putting autism first would mean that you're "defining them by their autism." It may sound like a nice gesture at first, but the thing is that I have never seen a single autistic person, myself included, agree with it. I've seen far more autistic people speak out against it because it promotes language-based activism that takes attention away from actual autistic problems and awareness (ex: disability rights, educating about sensory issues, normalizing certain things like stimming, etc). More directly, it promotes an idea that none of us were consulted on and most of us actively disagree with while claiming that it's helping us.

Now, obviously this situation is a bit different. It's less definitive whether most trans and jewish folks resent people engaging with Harry Potter or not. It's also not going to take attention away from an issue for somebody to just not talk about or engage with Harry Potter. However, my main point is that the opinion of the affected groups should have some bearing on this discussion because ultimately they would be the ones that would be theoretically facing more transphobia/antisemitism if Harry Potter were to be engaged with more. This entire argument hinges on whether this would cause harm or not, and, if the majority of the people who would be affected by it say it wouldn't, then wouldn't it be disengenous to keep arguing that it's immoral to engage with Harry Potter content?

Unfortunately, we can't really prove which way the majority opinion lies, so that line of thinking is more of a consideration to make than a definitive argument, but I thought it would be an interesting addition to the conversation nonetheless.


An argument that's a bit more concrete (or as concrete as anything else in this thread is since this is all speculation, anyway) is that engaging with any "harmful" fandom in a way that is positive toward the people it harms does more good than not engaging with it at all.

Most popular social media algorithms aren't sharing things based only on what's popular. If you're an avid youtube user, your reccomendations should be full of things you specifically would find interesting (or that you at least might click on). The same goes for other social media sites like Instagram or Twitter (even if the latter is soon to be dead). For this reason, algorithms also generally find things you're likely to agree with. For example, a person who leaned toward left-wing politics and watched videos about that would be reccommended videos about politics, yes, but they would likely be reccomended videos specifically about left-wing politics. I like watching videos about trans issues, but I don't get reccommended videos where people are saying that trans people are monsters and such because I don't watch videos like that, and reccommending them wouldn't boost viewer retention.

To put this all in the context of Harry Potter again, someone who agrees with the antisemetic/transphobic aspects of Harry Potter and its author would be getting reccommendations about Harry Potter specifically where people are supporting those elements of it/not talking about then at all. Someone who likes Harry Potter and doesn't like those aspects of it would get reccommendations about it without those topics/where those topics are critically discussed. Someone who is on the fence, however, might get both. That's where fandom engagement with positive attitudes toward people who would be harmed by the fandom comes in. If there's no content about that, then the only thing that on-the-fencer would see is anti-trans, antisemetic rhetoric. They would be shoved down a pipeline of content with one homogenous (and, frankly, shitty) view.

And, mind you, I'm not necessarily talking about someone who guys "oh, I don't know..." when asked about transphobia/antisemitism. This could be someone that simply hasn't had reason to to form an opinion about it before, doesn't know JKR is a transphobe/antisemetic, does not critically engage with media, or any number of things.

Now, this is a bit different on less-personalized algorithms such as Ao3 and other fanfiction sites. This, however, faces the same idea. If everyone who is not transphobic/antisemetic simply leaves the fandom, there will be no content left that actively disagrees with those viewpoints. When people share Harry Potter fics, there wouldn't be any that acknowledge that JKR is a shitty person. No one would be critically engaged to think about the problems in Harry Potter. This goes for RP too, as well as any other fandom space.

Maybe you not engaging with Harry Potter will make it slightly less likely to be recommended. Maybe a mass leaving of everyone who hates JKR from the Harry Potter fandom would make it less popular, but it wouldn’t go away entirely. That would just make sure that only people who agree with JKR promote Harry Potter, and that anyone who reads the books innocent of this knowledge and then enters the fandom is sure to be met with hordes harmful propaganda with absolutely nothing to contest it.

My experience is admittedly limited since I'm not trans, nor do I hang around in many LGBTQA+ circles, but it seems most people I know who say "don't enjoy Harry Potter" feel that way more so because they think it's a terrible series. They think it's badly written, full of plotholes, etc. The few trans people I have talked to about this issue more or less feel the same way: they dislike the series more for what they deem to be poor quality rather than any viewpoints conveyed by the author. I do realize that other trans people may feel differently about this and, granted, the vast majority of the types of people I hang around are also not heavily into the identity politics stuff.

That being said, you actually bring up a good point about social media algorithms and stuff. If all the sincere fans leave then, yes, you would just be left with the fans who actually agree with J.K's views. That would not reflect well on the type of content that is then created. Of course with that in mind it is possible to enjoy the series. Having those positive voices out there creating content would actually serve as a reinforcement that HP fans aren't just a bunch of bigots. Also, as you said yourself not everyone engages critically with media. Personally I don't, really. Media is just something I like to enjoy as an escape. If the media itself is good then I'll try to enjoy it regardless of the creator's personal views (a common example here is how people still enjoy Lovecraft's works despite the man having been a massive racist).

 

[ash_williams]

I think it’s important to note that violent bigotry and stereotypes are often reflected in the writing of these types of people so it’s hard to separate the art from the artist in certain ways.

For example. You can like Harry Potter , but if you say you like the way the goblins are portrayed , you’re probably antisemitic.

It’s like people supporting the whitewashing of minorities in media ( Wanda Maximoff for a recent and relative example ). You can like something while also acknowledging the harm that it had and continues to cause towards minorities. So long as you are actively and vocally against those things.

But you also can’t get mad if people assume that bigotry is something that you don’t care about when you do enjoy these types of stories and characters. There are lines that can be crossed.

 

[ash_williams]

I do also think that if you are actively and positively consuming media that is harmful to these minorities without any consideration , that speaks more on you as a person.

You can’t say that you are anti-bigotry and then enjoy and actively consume content that promotes it without doing anything to make it known that you aren’t bigoted.

 

[ArchieTheFel]

I don't know...I think it's a complicated issue.

While you can definitely enjoy an author's/creator's work without directly supporting or agreeing with their viewpoints, actively giving money to them buy purchasing their products or official merchandise is putting money into their hands that they can spend on spreading their harmful views and even supporting organizations that push those views.

I used to love Harry Potter as much as any other kid when the popularity was at its peak, but then I found out I was nonbinary. Not long after, J.K. Rowling started posting those silly little words on her Twitter. Not to mention, all the other stuff (antisemitism, casual racism, shoehorning in a gay character to try and gain favor in a group that she doesn't even fully support). I lost so much love for her books, and now I can't look at Harry Potter the same way.

I think if you're going to keep enjoying something made by a problematic creator, at least be aware of how it affects the groups that said creator might be advocating against. I guarantee there aren't a lot of trans/nonbinary people (like myself) who still enjoy her books after what she did.

Also, side note; let's not forget that after receiving backlash for being a terf, she released a book with a transphobic "protagonist" and tried to paint them as the victim. Absolutely stupid. Can't stand J.K. Rowling.

 

[Jannah]

I think if you're going to keep enjoying something made by a problematic creator, at least be aware of how it affects the groups that said creator might be advocating against. I guarantee there aren't a lot of trans/nonbinary people (like myself) who still enjoy her books after what she did.

It depends. I personally know some trans people who still enjoy the HP series, but then again part of that could be nostalgia since they grew up with the series.

 

[ArchieTheFel]

It depends. I personally know some trans people who still enjoy the HP series, but then again part of that could be nostalgia since they grew up with the series.

Possibly nostalgia. But even so, there's a lot who don't care for the series anymore because of J.K. Rowling, myself included. Unfortunately, knowing that she wouldn't support me in any meaningful way ruins the nostalgia, but I can definitely see how it holds up for others. I'll never forget how much I wanted a letter from Hogwarts, or how much I wanted to talk to snakes lmao

 

[ash_williams]

It depends. I personally know some trans people who still enjoy the HP series, but then again part of that could be nostalgia since they grew up with the series.

As a trans person I think it’s weird to use trans people who happen to enjoy the series as a reason why it’s justifiable if you yourself are not trans. It’s different to enjoy something as a member of the community who is hurt by it ( that is more like reclaiming ) than it is to actively enjoy something that you know hurts minority groups that you aren’t a part of.

 

[Jannah]

As a trans person I think it’s weird to use trans people who happen to enjoy the series as a reason why it’s justifiable if you yourself are not trans. It’s different to enjoy something as a member of the community who is hurt by it ( that is more like reclaiming ) than it is to actively enjoy something that you know hurts minority groups that you aren’t a part of.

Except that's not a claim I was making. I wasn't trying to justify anything. I was just pointing out that different trans people have different opinions on this subject. You're not all some kind of monolith.

 

[ash_williams]

Except that's not a claim I was making. I wasn't trying to justify anything. I was just pointing out that different trans people have different opinions on this subject. You're not all some kind of monolith.

Bringing up trans people as a talking point when you are not trans to counter the point of the majority of trans people being upset about transphobia is weird. I don’t know what else to tell you.

“ you’re not all some kind of monolith “.

I think the way you talk about this and these issues makes it very clear that you don’t care about trans people or the effect that it has had on them ( and other minority groups. I suggest doing some soul searching. Hope this helps

 

[Jannah]

Bringing up trans people as a talking point when you are not trans to counter the point of the majority of trans people being upset about transphobia is weird. I don’t know what else to tell you.

“ you’re not all some kind of monolith “.

I think the way you talk about this and these issues makes it very clear that you don’t care about trans people or the effect that it has had on them ( and other minority groups. I suggest doing some soul searching. Hope this helps

My point was more along the lines of "not everyone sees simply enjoying the series as being transphobic" and that it's more nuanced than that. Yes, supporting the author financially is probably not a good thing, but simply being a fan less so.

Whatever, though. Continue to put words in my mouth. I'm sort of beyond caring about pointless internet drama.