Anime & Manga Cliches in Anime/Manga: Good or Bad?

[ZeiruliousMakavar]

So after spending quite awhile watching some of the newer animes and reading the newer mangas, I've noticed a slight trend in Manga and Anime lately. That is, most of the 'mainstream' animes and mangas seem to be about fan service only, with extremely predictable plots if any at all.

I personally do not mind a fan service scene here and there in an anime or manga. But when the fan service is the main thing, then it gets boring really quickly. On levels bordering on annoying. I have dropped several animes because of this.

Now, I'm not an expert on market trends, or on anime/manga in general. I do understand that fan service indeed is one thing that can keep an anime or manga alive, especially when talking of the merchandise that comes with such things. How ever, I feel bad for the manga writers/artists, who have to either change their work or cancel it all together, because they don't have stereotypical characters and cliché scenes/plots in their mangas/animes.

It seems the trend for plots nowadays is this: Guy gets sent to another world and meets several attractive women. All of these women fall in love with him, despite him having no redeeming qualities, as he's either a jerk to them, or completely useless. He then has to save the world from some dark evil, and gets the prettiest girl in the world as his wife/girlfriend because of this.

This plot line is EVERYWHERE in anime and manga nowadays, and it's reached the point where it's become cliché. In my opinion, for an anime/manga to be interesting at all, it needs to do something unexpected. Yeah, it can have fan service, but not focus solely on the fan service, such as shows like Highschool DxD (In which the plot to me seems to be the fan service.). It can have cliché characters, such as the childhood friend who grew up to be 'sexy,' but it shouldn't just be all cliché characters, such as shows like To Love-ru. (Clumsy idiotic protagonist, with all of the 'love interests' being either Tsunderes, Ditzy girls, or 'childhood friends') The plot can be slice of life, but it shouldn't follow a stereotypical plot, such as shows like Clannad.

Shows such as Konosuba (A harem-esque anime/manga where the male lead is the only competent character.) and Urara Meirochou (A 'moe-fest' anime/manga that has a cute plot to go with the cute characters.) don't exactly follow these clichés. Yes, they do have clichés of there own, but they are still interesting in that they do something different. Konosuba is interesting, because the 'useless male lead' is the only one who's competent. Urara is different because, despite all of the characters being a type of moe, there is next to no romance in the anime.

Either way, after that long rant, I want to know your guys/gals opinions on clichés in anime/manga. Are they a good thing, or a bad thing?

 

[Darkmaster006]

Fanservice, at least of the kind you're talk about, is inherently disrespectful due to the sexualization and of course dumbification of female characters (which not only happens on anime, though), and ultimately unnecessary to tell a good story; yet, if you wanna sell and don't know how to tell a good story, people will buy your fanservice and your anime will be in the top-charts easily. To be honest, I am very nitpicky about the animes I watch, and that's mainly because of the reasons you listed below. If it has fanservice, it has to have a really good plot for me to overlook it. Either ways, I don't care if it harms the industry or not in itself, but I do care that anime is, from about 2010 at least, pure copycat fan-servicey shows. That's why it's hard to search for the good animes there are.

So, the thing is just looking past all the anime you know will be the same shit you've seen, and start looking for the good stuff. Then, about other cliches of the non-fanservice kind; I think lots of them should be done away with, such as the guy-in-another-world-meets-girl or stuff like that; or stereotyped characters. But, again, that's not that easy to do.

 

[Windsock]

Waifu culture is ruining anime. The Waifu-based show cliche needs to be thrown out of a window.

 

[ZeiruliousMakavar]

Fanservice, at least of the kind you're talk about, is inherently disrespectful due to the sexualization and of course dumbification of female characters (which not only happens on anime, though), and ultimately unnecessary to tell a good story; yet, if you wanna sell and don't know how to tell a good story, people will buy your fanservice and your anime will be in the top-charts easily. To be honest, I am very nitpicky about the animes I watch, and that's mainly because of the reasons you listed below. If it has fanservice, it has to have a really good plot for me to overlook it. Either ways, I don't care if it harms the industry or not in itself, but I do care that anime is, from about 2010 at least, pure copycat fan-servicey shows. That's why it's hard to search for the good animes there are.

So, the thing is just looking past all the anime you know will be the same shit you've seen, and start looking for the good stuff. Then, about other cliches of the non-fanservice kind; I think lots of them should be done away with, such as the guy-in-another-world-meets-girl or stuff like that; or stereotyped characters. But, again, that's not that easy to do.

Waifu culture is ruining anime. The Waifu-based show cliche needs to be thrown out of a window.

I do agree with both of you, and I'm glad that there are people out there that agree with me that the current trend in Anime is extremely disrespectful to not only the medium, but the viewers. It seems to me that after around 2011-ish, Anime became more about how many times you can show a characters underwear, then about how interesting the plot is.

I do agree that this "Waifu Culture" needs to be done away with, as it makes viewers focus less on what is happening, and more on who it's happening to.

 

[Myrta]

In my opinion it's all about execution. No cliché is inherently bad. Not even excessive fanservice is bad; I tend to dislike it as a rule of the thumb, but I will defend, say, Kill la Kill until my dying day because it was just so ridiculously entertaining.

I'm also not a fan of this "new anime sucks" approach. There are certain annoying trends like the isekai stuff you have mentioned, but a) there used to be different annoying gimmicks in the past, people just don't remember them because of nostalgia goggles, b) good anime is still being made. Shouwa Genroku Rakugo Shinjuu is genuinely one of the best things I've seen, for example. It's just that there's always going to be more bad shows than good shows, it's a matter of filtering them out. And that isn't even very difficult, usually it's rather clear from premise alone and staff working on it which show is going to be irredeemable trash.

 

[ZeiruliousMakavar]

In my opinion it's all about execution. No cliché is inherently bad. Not even excessive fanservice is bad; I tend to dislike it as a rule of the thumb, but I will defend, say, Kill la Kill until my dying day because it was just so ridiculously entertaining.

I'm also not a fan of this "new anime sucks" approach. There are certain annoying trends like the isekai stuff you have mentioned, but a) there used to be different annoying gimmicks in the past, people just don't remember them because of nostalgia goggles, b) good anime is still being made. Shouwa Genroku Rakugo Shinjuu is genuinely one of the best things I've seen, for example. It's just that there's always going to be more bad shows than good shows, it's a matter of filtering them out. And that isn't even very difficult, usually it's rather clear from premise alone and staff working on it which show is going to be irredeemable trash.

I do agree with you there, and yes, much of the whole "The older shows were better, these new ones suck!" is nostalgia, however...

Look at it this way, many of the newer animes, yes even the "good ones" focus more on fan service and being pervy then actual plot. This transition has happened over the past ten years or so, we just notice it now, because of how blatantly obvious it's become. It's like any transition. I remember very far back, the idea of having cartoons geared towards adults was ridiculous, yet nowadays cartoons like The Simpsons, Futurama, and Family Guy regularly top the charts. That too didn't happen over night, hell Futurama and Family Guy both were canceled several times.

 

[Myrta]

I do agree with you there, and yes, much of the whole "The older shows were better, these new ones suck!" is nostalgia, however...

Look at it this way, many of the newer animes, yes even the "good ones" focus more on fan service and being pervy then actual plot. This transition has happened over the past ten years or so, we just notice it now, because of how blatantly obvious it's become. It's like any transition. I remember very far back, the idea of having cartoons geared towards adults was ridiculous, yet nowadays cartoons like The Simpsons, Futurama, and Family Guy regularly top the charts. That too didn't happen over night, hell Futurama and Family Guy both were canceled several times.

Honestly, I don't see it. This season, I'm watching four shows: Rakugo S2, ACCA, Onihei and Little Witch Academia. The fanservice is pretty much non-existent in these shows and it's been the case with most recent shows I've watched over the years. Could you give me some examples of "good" shows that neglect plot in favor of fanservice? I'm genuinely curious what would fit into this category since I can't really think of anything.

 

[ZeiruliousMakavar]

Honestly, I don't see it. This season, I'm watching four shows: Rakugo S2, ACCA, Onihei and Little Witch Academia. The fanservice is pretty much non-existent in these shows and it's been the case with most recent shows I've watched over the years. Could you give me some examples of "good" shows that neglect plot in favor of fanservice? I'm genuinely curious what would fit into this category since I can't really think of anything.

Of the ones that come immediately to mind, there's Konosuba, Ai Mai Mii, and Kobayashi's Dragon Maid and partially Urara Meirochou. The first one being a 'mainstream' anime. There's probably dozens more, but those are the first ones to come to my mind.

 

[Myrta]

Of the ones that come immediately to mind, there's Konosuba, Ai Mai Mii, and Kobayashi's Dragon Maid and partially Urara Meirochou. The first one being a 'mainstream' anime. There's probably dozens more, but those are the first ones to come to my mind.

Oh yeah, in that case I know where our misunderstanding comes from, I don't particularly like any of these, so I avoid them and they fly under my radar. But looking at the summaries, it doesn't really surprise me, fanservice is exactly what I'd expect from most of these. Anyway, calling something "good" is pretty subjective, so you can't really say that ever-present fanservice is leaking into "good" anime since everyone's perception of what is good is different.

 

[ZeiruliousMakavar]

Oh yeah, in that case I know where our misunderstanding comes from, I don't particularly like any of these, so I avoid them and they fly under my radar. But looking at the summaries, it doesn't really surprise me, fanservice is exactly what I'd expect from most of these. Anyway, calling something "good" is pretty subjective, so you can't really say that ever-present fanservice is leaking into "good" anime since everyone's perception of what is good is different.

Yeah, I attempt to avoid animes like that as well, as I can only see the endless fan service as annoying... But the site I go to pushes the most popular animes to the top of the lists, which means they, and the ones like them, are usually the only thing I see on the main page.

 

[Idea]

I think it´s important to make a distinction here and clarify a small mistake that "trope" and "cliché" are not the same thing. A cliché is a trope that has lost it´s meaning. Therefore, clichés can´t be good, because by defintion they are bad tropes in the sense that they are only present because they tropes and the writers lost all sense of their meaning. If there is meaning imbued, then it´s no longer a cliché, but a trope.

Another common myth I would like to dismiss before I go into the actual topic is "I enjoy it = it´s good" or "it´s successful = it´s good". This is baseless, except in the fact that some people insist on the idea that how much we like something affects how good it is, which is purely and simply a complete mistake. Nomatter what your tastes are, it doesn´t change the content of whatever it is, which implies that how good something is cannot be affect by what one thinks of it. We can enjoy things that are terrible and hate masterpieces and we have that right, but it doesn´t make the terrible any better nor the masterpiece any worse even if all of humanity hated the masterpiece and loved the crappy work.

That said, I have no problem with tropes and I can accept clichés. As someone who often works in a writing medium myself, sometimes resorting to something we know is just plain and basic is a necessity given we can´t afford to think of every single detail and come up with somethign original, especially if that original is something we might not be able to execute. I also think that employing clichés makes a medium´s capacity to last longer improve, since we are working with all the tiny variatons of the same idea, then we move to all the tiny variations of another idea, to put it simply, and thus it takes a lot longer to actually run out of ideas for the medium,

 

[ZeiruliousMakavar]

I think it´s important to make a distinction here and clarify a small mistake that "trope" and "cliché" are not the same thing. A cliché is a trope that has lost it´s meaning. Therefore, clichés can´t be good, because by defintion they are bad tropes in the sense that they are only present because they tropes and the writers lost all sense of their meaning. If there is meaning imbued, then it´s no longer a cliché, but a trope.

Another common myth I would like to dismiss before I go into the actual topic is "I enjoy it = it´s good" or "it´s successful = it´s good". This is baseless, except in the fact that some people insist on the idea that how much we like something affects how good it is, which is purely and simply a complete mistake. Nomatter what your tastes are, it doesn´t change the content of whatever it is, which implies that how good something is cannot be affect by what one thinks of it. We can enjoy things that are terrible and hate masterpieces and we have that right, but it doesn´t make the terrible any better nor the masterpiece any worse even if all of humanity hated the masterpiece and loved the crappy work.

That said, I have no problem with tropes and I can accept clichés. As someone who often works in a writing medium myself, sometimes resorting to something we know is just plain and basic is a necessity given we can´t afford to think of every single detail and come up with somethign original, especially if that original is something we might not be able to execute. I also think that employing clichés makes a medium´s capacity to last longer improve, since we are working with all the tiny variatons of the same idea, then we move to all the tiny variations of another idea, to put it simply, and thus it takes a lot longer to actually run out of ideas for the medium,

That is a good point that you bring up, and I do agree that if done right, they can help keep a show going. How ever, my point was that it seems that is all writers are using nowadays, as if they've run out of unique ideas. When the vast majority of a medium becomes as predictable as anime is now, then obviously something is going wrong. As I said in an earlier post, the vast majority of "popular" animes follow the plot line of "Guy is sent to different world, gets ALL the girls." which, I find as insulting to the viewers.

And I whole-heartedly agree with you that the whole "I like it, therefore it's good" statement is beyond ridiculous. Many fandoms out there are like that however, with the most vocal one being Clannad's fans. The whole "If you don't cry to this, then you aren't human!" trope has nearly reached cliché levels because of them. I personally did not cry, only because I was able to predict the vast majority of the plot, after watching the first couple of episodes. If the main factor of how good a anime is, is based off of it's effect on your emotional state, then shows that are predictable like Clannad, aren't all that good in my book. Angel Beats, a similar Anime, did actually make me cry, but only because I didn't expect the end.

 

[Idea]

That is a good point that you bring up, and I do agree that if done right, they can help keep a show going. How ever, my point was that it seems that is all writers are using nowadays, as if they've run out of unique ideas. When the vast majority of a medium becomes as predictable as anime is now, then obviously something is going wrong. As I said in an earlier post, the vast majority of "popular" animes follow the plot line of "Guy is sent to different world, gets ALL the girls." which, I find as insulting to the viewers.

And I whole-heartedly agree with you that the whole "I like it, therefore it's good" statement is beyond ridiculous. Many fandoms out there are like that however, with the most vocal one being Clannad's fans. The whole "If you don't cry to this, then you aren't human!" trope has nearly reached cliché levels because of them. I personally did not cry, only because I was able to predict the vast majority of the plot, after watching the first couple of episodes. If the main factor of how good a anime is, is based off of it's effect on your emotional state, then shows that are predictable like Clannad, aren't all that good in my book. Angel Beats, a similar Anime, did actually make me cry, but only because I didn't expect the end.

It´s true. Anime has become very predictable which is a terrible downside. And I think that for those whose enjoyment comes from not knowing what to expect at all, the majority of the medium has kinda gone South. However, I do not think that the ending or what happens in the future is really the only important aspect, and in my opinion focusing too much on that takes away a lot of important things. I, for example, like good philosophical and worldbuilding moments. I also like comedy and sometimes it can be really funny even if I know word by word what is about to be said and frame by frame what is about to show up... Occasionally it even works best BECAUSE you´re expecting it.

I highly recommend "magical girl raising project". I think it´s an excellent example of what I´m talking about. It takes all your expectations that it is a madoka rip off and while not trying to contradict those expectations it brings a new flavor to the excution of certain ideas which really gives it a strength that I would find can even one-up madoka.

 

[Count Gensokyo]

My thoughts? Harping on cliches is overrated.

 

[ZeiruliousMakavar]

It´s true. Anime has become very predictable which is a terrible downside. And I think that for those whose enjoyment comes from not knowing what to expect at all, the majority of the medium has kinda gone South. However, I do not think that the ending or what happens in the future is really the only important aspect, and in my opinion focusing too much on that takes away a lot of important things. I, for example, like good philosophical and worldbuilding moments. I also like comedy and sometimes it can be really funny even if I know word by word what is about to be said and frame by frame what is about to show up... Occasionally it even works best BECAUSE you´re expecting it.

I highly recommend "magical girl raising project". I think it´s an excellent example of what I´m talking about. It takes all your expectations that it is a madoka rip off and while not trying to contradict those expectations it brings a new flavor to the excution of certain ideas which really gives it a strength that I would find can even one-up madoka.

I actually already have watched Magical Girl Raising Project, and I do agree that it's a good magical girl anime in the same vein as Madoka Magica.

And I do agree with you that at times knowing what's going to happen doesn't effect the experience, however I was talking exclusively on the animes/mangas where that emotional 'shock' is the main premise. Think of it this way, would you enjoy Sherlock Holmes more the first time reading it, when you don't know what's going to happen, or the second time, when you already know everything?

Not knowing what's next makes us give genuine emotional reactions when our favorite characters die, or when our "ships" become cannon. We don't invest our logical minds, but our emotional ones when relating to characters. That means that predictability is a death sentence for emotional animes like Clannad and Angel Beats, because the emotional shock that the endings would have had, becomes mute because we had already mentally prepared ourselves for them.

Now, I'm not a scientist, nor do I consider myself an expert, so don't take my word on this... But, it has to do with endorphins in our brains. Specifically Adrenaline. It's why scary movies are always popular, it's why thrillers make billions. We, as a social and emotional species, will relate to characters MORE when we don't already know what is going to happen to them. The revelations of this causes our brains to release endorphins, which causes the emotional response. It's why animes like Clannad and Angel Beats don't work the second time around. Usually. If it's your first time watching them, and you already know what going to happen, you can't relate to the characters as much as if you didn't, this causes a mental block preventing the release of the specific endorphins needed for the desired effect.

Now, I do not deny, that in some cases, and with some people, the knowing part only increases the effect. Again, that's why scary movies work so well. But those things only work on the emotions that use adrenaline, such as fear. The brain expects it, so it pre-makes more adrenaline then needed, in anticipation of the 'scare.' It's why when watching a scary movie, people will say "I hate this." or "Why am I watching this?" But afterword's, talk about how 'good' the movie was/is.

 

[Idea]

You are correct. And more "drama" anime are quite victims of that. Then I will give you another recomendation, since I don´t think it quite follows the same clichés, Masamune-kun no Revenge

 

[ZeiruliousMakavar]

You are correct. And more "drama" anime are quite victims of that. Then I will give you another recomendation, since I don´t think it quite follows the same clichés, Masamune-kun no Revenge

That, I have yet to watch.

 

[Saccharine Cyanide]

"Do you think the cliche trend in anime and manga is good or bad for the industry?"
Yes/No
Wait, what? XD

Yeah, I've also dropped anime for unnecessary fanservice. I dropped the Seven Deadly Sins in the first episode because of the groping scene.
I'm totally cool with shows like that one where girls are playing king of the hill with their boobs and butts. Whatever, it's not trying to be anything but fanservice, and therefore the fanservice isn't distracting. But random panty shots and groping in an otherwise dramatic story - it's distracting and cringeworthy. It tells me that the writer/director doesn't trust their story enough to hold the audience's interest without throwing in some B&B.

 

[Communist]

Fanservice is absolutely unneccessary unless you're trying to draw Hentai or something. I will probably never understand it's usage (even Doraemon has fanservice, which concerns me. It's a show for kids, for freakin's sake.)

 

[MISTER UN. 0W3N]

​

Honestly, I think some anime cliches and tropes can be done right... for the sake of comedy. The sort of "make fun of yourself" kind of genre. I know that the clip and audio isn't from the same thang, but I feel like this is a good example of using a trope for the sake of getting some laughs.​

 

[amai]

cliches can be annoying, but a lot of the times i don't mind them. maybe it's because i'm a raging lesbian but i really have no problem at all with a bit of tits and ass in my animu. but honestly, it depends what you're watching. sometimes i want a heavy anime with developed characters and plot. other times i just wanna sit back and chill to some cute girls doing cute things with a few pantyshots here and there.

plus it's pretty easy to tell if a show's gonna be filled with fanservice before you watch it. people who start up an episode of a show like 'I Got Transported to a New World and My Little Sister is a Succubus?!!!?' and then complain about the fanservice are dumb. as well, it's important to remember that even in so called 'mature' anime that people pat themselves on the back for watching because it's not moeshit there are still plenty of cliches and fanservice, just not in the same way.

i totally agree with you that a show has to do something different with a cliche to be interesting though, no matter what type of show it is.

 

[TPBx]

"Do you think the cliche trend in anime and manga is good or bad for the industry?"
Yes/No
Wait, what? XD

Yeah, I've also dropped anime for unnecessary fanservice. I dropped the Seven Deadly Sins in the first episode because of the groping scene.
I'm totally cool with shows like that one where girls are playing king of the hill with their boobs and butts. Whatever, it's not trying to be anything but fanservice, and therefore the fanservice isn't distracting. But random panty shots and groping in an otherwise dramatic story - it's distracting and cringeworthy. It tells me that the writer/director doesn't trust their story enough to hold the audience's interest without throwing in some B&B.

Tbh dude you're missing out because Seven Deadly Sins in the same vein as Fairy Tail is one of the really great Shounen Action series once you get past the fanservicey elements to it. Though I can see your reasons for dropping it.

 

[DeerPrince]

For the most part, cliches aren't bad, because they're cliches for a reason. It's moreso how the author or director wants to carry out... I hate shows that are full of fan service because not only does it make me feel awkward, it completely detracts and ruins the main plot of the anime especially when it's completely unnecessary. It's been increasingly hard to find good animes nowadays because of this newer trend of excessive fan service. There are shows like Magi where they use that fanservice cliche and turn it into a very comical thing that adds onto the plot and the way they do it is hilarious without really making anyone feel uncomfortable (at least for me, lol).

If the plot is good enough, I will watch it despite the fanservice, but it's honestly more personal preference. In the beginning, a show like Yuri on Ice did make feel uncomfortable, but I did enjoy the plot and character development (and the characters faces, lol). But there are many cliche animes that are enjoyable like Clannad, which is the typical female protagonist, but the way the show is developed makes it so much more enjoyable, and it's really a must watch anime... Attack on Titan is also a little bit of a cliche, considering it's a "Let me Save the World and be all cool at it" sort of plot, but the manga and anime develop the cliche into something better and more enjoyable. Sword art Online is very much borderline... The first season was great, but then the further it moved, the more harem-y it got... GGO kind of redeemed it, but Alfheim Online kind of ruined everything? Leafa's whole crush situation just seemed so unnecessary to the plot.​

 

[Saccharine Cyanide]

Tbh dude you're missing out because Seven Deadly Sins in the same vein as Fairy Tail is one of the really great Shounen Action series once you get past the fanservicey elements to it. Though I can see your reasons for dropping it.

Ehhh...Maybe I'll give it another try. Does the main character come off as less of a creep as the series progresses? Or at least does someone call him out on it?

I also haven't watched Fairy Tale, for the very different reason that...I don't have the attention span to watch a show over 200 episodes. OTL

 

[ZeiruliousMakavar]

Ehhh...Maybe I'll give it another try. Does the main character come off as less of a creep as the series progresses? Or at least does someone call him out on it?

I also haven't watched Fairy Tale, for the very different reason that...I don't have the attention span to watch a show over 200 episodes. OTL

The scene you talked about in the first episode, is literally the only scene like it in the entire show, sort of. How I took it is as a show that Meliodas has a different set of moral guidelines then we would normally see in a Shonen anime. Yes, he does joke about that stuff, as well as be a bit perverted when it comes to the princess, but that's about it. The rest of the time, he's surprisingly serious.