Other What makes a good roleplay?

We've all had negative experiences roleplaying, haven't we? From plots that mislead us and let us down, to players dropping out after a week despite your very clear 'only-sign-up-if-you-can-commit-long-term-you-pleblord' warning, to discovering that the character you slaved over creating actually doesn't interest you at all. Sucks, doesn't it?

But we're still here, we're still at it, and we're still writing. Why? Because there've been fantastic moments too (and no, I don't know either why I'm introducing this thread like a political rally). Moments of pure bliss - be it a character interaction that is fascinating and fulfilling, or an amazing twist, or even an epic action sequence brimming with excitement. My little ginger heart flutters at the thought of it - an amazing RP, something we all want to get our dentures embedded in!

There's a big community here of people of all different kinds of interests and experiences. So I wan to throw it out there into the ring - what do you think it is that makes a good RP? What is it in the structure, formation and control of an RP tale that keeps it alive and keeps its players engaged? And do you have any particular examples to back up your points?

I've been RPing for some five years now, and as I reflect now upon returning from hiatus I realise how little I really know about the subject. My most successful RP lasted a good six months and developed a solid core of contributors and a sequel, but this I attribute mainly to the players themselves, who were a truly dedicated bunch willing to make real independent creative contributions. So I've concluded in some senses that a good RP comes down to good players. However, this is not really what I want to discuss as to a big extent this is something very difficult to control - yes you can prune out shoddy applications but many times even players with well-constructed forms drop out near instantaneously, and not all of us have the luxury of a dedicated friendship group who will stay loyal throughout any RP (sed hep, sed frends). I'm more interested in the craft of the RP itself, the GM's original job. The design, the layout and the narrative itself. What in that make a good RP?

Thanks guys - and hopefully this discussion will help us all make better RPs (and become better RPers!) in the process!

I like the question and I'm always interested in it. I'm just not sure what threads like this do. I opt not to answer these anymore because I'm not certain who it helps. It's a nice read, but never gets put into practice. Theory and discussion can only take you so far. If you really want to learn about what you're asking, set up a group with people that do/explore these things hands-on. Discussion never trumps experience and for something like this, you need to do it yourself for what's discussed to really stick.

I really dislike the way the question is framed, since the answer is biased anyway. Not because of our individual perceptions of roleplay and our individual experiences, though certainly those do take a serious part into how we view the subject of the question, but because the question makes one fundamental assumption that puts the whole question into question (excuse the redundancy).

And here it is:

SkyGinge said:

what do you think it is that makes a good RP? What is it in the structure, formation and control of an RP tale that keeps it alive and keeps its players engaged? And do you have any particular examples to back up your points?

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SkyGinge said:

I've been RPing for some five years now, and as I reflect now upon returning from hiatus I realise how little I really know about the subject. My most successful RP lasted a good six months and developed a solid core of contributors and a sequel,

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You´re already assuming the answer to the question. The question "what is a good RP?" is being framed as "what is a successful RP?", and maybe you intended to ask the latter (which is perfectly fine), but you are still implying that "good" and "successful" necessarily correspond. Which is a problem and reflects on the very answer you are giving to your would-be-question.

Yes, good players do contribute to a good RP, but much like anything else that is made, the quality of an RP is not the quality of the people working on it, nor of their relationship. It can be reflective of it, but that reflection is found in other aspects that belong to the RP itself.

Furthermore, the quality of something cannot be measured in an arbitrary way as "success". Several RPs that do the exact same things as very successful RPs may not end up being as successful. Success is more often than not affected by IRL situations, which have 0 to do with anything pertaining to the RP. In short, success and quality are two entirely independent things.


It wouldn´t be fair of me to point this out without giving my own thoughts on both questions though. So, what do I think makes for a successful RP? Well, dumb luck. You need to get the right people, yes, but you also need to make sure they are not pulled away by IRL stuff and you need to not bore them and make sure they have similar paces etc... All of these which are factors outside of anything you can really control or assert in time.

What do I think makes a good RP? The perfecting of each of it´s aspects, but since that is way to vague of an answer, I would boil it down to the RP being an enjoyable and immersive experience where there is an evident exploration of characters, plot and setting.

Nana_MelaNinja said:

Pacing plays a large role in this as well. In the past, I've found that RPs tend to stagnate when the "meet-and-greet" stage where all the characters get to know each other goes on for too long.

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I've also found this on several occasions, probably enough to make double figures! Any ideas of how to navigate this section successfully? It's always a bit of a shame because character interaction is such a key part of RP and yet when you get your first proper slice of it like this, that's when things most often seem to die.

White Masquerade : Fair points, but not all of us know like-minded people who'd be willing to do something like that. I agree entirely on the experience trumping discussion, which I why I've asked people to draw from and provide examples of their own experiences. Plus having it in an open thread allows it to be public that users scrolling through who wouldn't otherwise think about this kind of stuff. Sure it's naive to think people are suddenly going to be able to implement everything discussed but it at least gives people stuff to think about! At any rate, this isn't massively in topic regarding the questions posed

Idea : You bring up two slightly differently connoted word choices written by a tired person late at night and do a fully blown critique of them. I agree that a good RP might not even be a successful RP (and that's a helpful thing to bring up as otherwise one might get discouraged!) - you are correct to say the two mean different things, and I could attempt to defend my fatigued decisions with just as close reading of some of my other statements, but fundamentally that's not the point as this thread isn't about me and my 'assumptions', which is the format in which you've framed your point. You're free of course to be irked by somebody's word choices, but that's something you can keep to yourself without rudely criticising the thread creator and yourself making your own assumptions about their psychology in a way which adds nothing helpful to discussion.

That said, good points raised elsewhere - obviously different people will have different answers and experiences (which is part of what this thread is hoping to look for as opposed to a definitive rulebook), IRL does have a big affect (I can think of an RP which was going really strong until sadly two core members fell seriously unwell, and then the whole thing fell apart), and you do need a lot of luck to make a good RP. May I ask what for you makes an RP an enjoyable and imersive experience, to elaborate on what you've said?

SkyGinge said:

You bring up two slightly differently connoted word choices written by a tired person late at night and do a fully blown critique of them. You are correct to say the two mean different things, and I could attempt to defend my fatigued decisions with just as close reading of some of my other statements, but fundamentally that's not the point as this thread isn't about me and my 'assumptions'. You're free of course to be irked by somebody's word choices, but that's something you can keep to yourself without rudely criticising the thread creator and yourself making your own assumptions about their psychology in a way which adds nothing helpful to discussion.

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First of all I brought up those two things as examples of the general tone that most clearly showed what I was getting at. Regardless of the conditions in which you wrote this, I would have no way of knowing. All I had was a textbox asking a question in a biased manner that goes along a mentality I disagree with and thought I might as well express why.
Second, I am very curious as to why you would label my words as "rudely criticizing the thread creator". I implied nothing about you except for the contents of the actual words written there, and I didn´t use any disrespectful language or tone. If you´re implying criticism itself is rude, I am sorry but that´s just not true. I can explain why, if you want me to, but that´s one hell of a rabbit hole to chase pointlessly so I´ll take my statement there as matter of fact unless requested to explain it.

SkyGinge said:

That said, good points raised elsewhere - obviously different people will have different answers and experiences (which is part of what this thread is hoping to look for as opposed to a definitive rulebook), IRL does have a big affect (I can think of an RP which was going really strong until sadly two core members fell seriously unwell, and then the whole thing fell apart), and you do need a lot of luck to make a good RP. May I ask what for you makes an RP an enjoyable and imersive experience, to elaborate on what you've said?

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To me personally, the immersion and enjoyment are derived from good writing, good planning, and well built world and characters. I am the kind of person who prefers an orderly and well-planned plot that gets fleshed out and branched over an RP and I am also someone who really enjoys seeing well-crafted, consistent worlds and characters which are explored via a realistic portrayal of them and whose limitations spark creativity and conflict. An RP where players are genuily dedicated to crafting a story that is interesting even by an outsider´s perspective.

SkyGinge said:

I've also found this on several occasions, probably enough to make double figures! Any ideas of how to navigate this section successfully? It's always a bit of a shame because character interaction is such a key part of RP and yet when you get your first proper slice of it like this, that's when things most often seem to die.

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Sure do! One idea would be to have a limit of how many members/characters are in a RP. I imagine it would be easier to have a group of five to eight total characters begin bonding and interacting with each other in a timely manner, as opposed to ten or more.

A second idea would be to have the members use OOC chat to form pre-existing relationships between their characters before the RP begins. That way, there won't be a ton of complete strangers playing 20 Questions with everyone. Rather, there would be situations where, let's say, a married couple introduces themselves to a pair of best friends who've known each other for years.

Finally, and this may not be the best idea, the GM could set a deadline to crack down on pacing issues. For example, the GM could say that all introductions should be completed by page three of the RP. Afterwards, a new event would begin by page five and be concluded by page ten, and so on and so forth.

Hopefully that all makes sense and proves to be helpful to someone down the line!

I was a part of two roleplays that came to the conclusion that the host intended. However, I'd only consider one successful.

The first was a fantasy RP were the host wanted to make a twist on typical post apocalyptic zombie RPs by putting it in a fantasy setting and changing the zombies into a slew of jrpg-type monsters. The plot wasn't super dense and anybody could be accepted, they just had to play by rules. The host did a few things I really enjoyed; he presented current objectives which kept players on track, never exposition dumped or introduced a bunch of npcs, and allowed players to submit their own world lore and monsters. He knew from the start each beat of the RP and how it would play out, and even changed things up to fit the other players' RPing style better. He was an exceptional host and the main reason the players still talk about our characters and create art, animations and and a comic based on the RP two years later.

Idea : Again, the point of this thread is to discuss RPs, and nothing else. I'm sorry if you weren't anticipating quite such a response and will be more than happy to go over PM how your post was construed as rude if that would help but would ask that the topic be kindly dropped. Otherwise, thanks for your input to discussion!

Nana_MelaNinja : Can anybody weigh in as to how this has worked in the past? I've personally not found much difference between larger and smaller groups as in larger groups people tend to split up into smaller conversations anyway which makes it more manageable. The second idea is something I've experimented with before and have been in another RP with slight elements of it, both which didn't really have much of an effect (and I recall reading in another thread of an experience of it which simply didn't work!) It's certainly an interesting dynamic though! I'm liking the third idea

SkyGinge said:

Again, the point of this thread is to discuss RPs, and nothing else. I'm sorry if you weren't anticipating quite such a response and will be more than happy to go over PM how your post was construed as rude if that would help but would ask that the topic be kindly dropped. Otherwise, thanks for your input to discussion!

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If you mean the thing about my supposed "rudeness", my apologies, I´ll PM ya

If you mean anything else I said, then I WAS discussing RPs. Simply, rather than doing something I find utterly futile like spouting examples, I decided to try to adress something respecting the more general landscape of RPs, more specifically, a common view/misunderstanding. My goal was to point out that mistake and at the same time clarify the exact topic of the conversation: how to make RPs successful or how to make RPs good.

@Nana_MelaNinja I've been in RPs that have tried all three of your suggestions and I think they work with varying success depending on what you want from the campaign.

Generally, I'm turned off by the idea of limiting players. In my previously mentioned rp, the fan favorite character was played by somebody who would normally be turned down by most hosts for not fitting a high enough literacy standard. On the contrary, I've been in RPs that have you apply first and all of them have died out. However, I like character limits and feel this should include NPCs and characters the host plays.

I don't have much of an opinion on your second suggestion but for the third one, I really like deadlines and post limits. Sometimes people meander and post whatever and it causes burn out. I'm guilty of this a lot. I feel like giving the players an estimate of when things will wrap up and move on will keep them on track.

Ok guys, here's another suggestion - I reckon familiarity can often make of a good RP. Generally I've found an RP with a sense of familiarity is likely to work out better than one that throws you into an entirely innovative world. This of course doesn't downplay originality and breaking from trends, both which make for interested players in their own rights.

For example, the RP I mentioned in the OP was a sort of mix between zombie-apocalypse and medieval fantasy, where the world had already been taken over by a genocidal dark lord and now only a few survivors remained, trekking desperately through the wilderness whilst pursued by hordes of faceless evils. The genre-play is the 'original' part to it, provides the intriguing set-up and conditions for the writers to explore - other than that though, there was very little new stuff for people to grapple with. Sure, it had a pretty specific magic system but it was hardly anything outlandish, and the generally rural settings and medieval European styled settlements meant it was fairly recognisable right away. The result? People can play with genre and setting they already know very well and that means people are comfortable and know what to expect. I'd hazard this is why, like it or loathe it, there's so many school-based RPs, and this is also why I think detailed-level fandom RPs, though few, tend to be quite brilliant because people are able to explore and tap into communal knowledge in really interesting ways.

On the other hand, I once ran a fantasy RP attempting something rather more unconventional, where the universe was basically split down into different layers of realms with different functions like coding. Aside from the fact I GMd it horrendously poorly, the sheer quantity of unfamiliar lore made it hard to breach into and lead the RP to a congested halt. I've also spotted a fair few RPs in my time attempting some incredibly well detailed worlds full of fascinating lore and world building, but the sheer quantity of information bogs down would-be players, and I often see these RPs live tragically short.

Has anybody had similar experiences?

//popcorn

This is a great thread! i like a lot of the posts in here so far. My flagship RP, Aegis, is a superhero school RP (so there's the familiarity of an academic setting combined with the general popular tropes of a superhero setting) that's lasted a year and some change (est. Feb 2016). I attribute that to the fact that the RP is divided up into episodes, which keeps a bit of pressure on people to post and not get left behind. It also gives us a break from posting between episodes, and I try to give the group (twenty, thirty players) time to revise characters, drop old ones, or create new ones.

Buuuut, I think the big strength of Aegis is that I have a very limited setting. I have a strict character creation system with point values, and the setting is repeatedly established to not have aliens or supernatural entities. All superpowers are genetic, like in X-Men, and the only way to "artificially" create powers is to find someone who carries the gene and put them through some sort of traumatic incident in order to trigger it early.

TL; DR Structured settings are good shit.

welian : Would you mind detailing the point values stuff for the character sheets a little further? Using a kind of stat-based system for that kind of thing is something I've only ever done once several years ago, and then only arbitrarily because I'm a little nerd who likes numbers and statistics. I've given Aegis a good flick through but can't find anything explaining how that system works and would be really fascinated to have it explained as it's something I'd like to experiment with in the future! How does the episode system work too - is that like different individual missions which bring the plot forward somewhat?

SkyGinge said:

welian : Would you mind detailing the point values stuff for the character sheets a little further? Using a kind of stat-based system for that kind of thing is something I've only ever done once several years ago, and then only arbitrarily because I'm a little nerd who likes numbers and statistics. I've given Aegis a good flick through but can't find anything explaining how that system works and would be really fascinated to have it explained as it's something I'd like to experiment with in the future! How does the episode system work too - is that like different individual missions which bring the plot forward somewhat?

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So this all started because the original RP that I ran on another site was full of power players and we had no internal consistency on how superpowers as a whole worked. My system has two basic ideas behind it: one, the more powerful your character is, the higher rank they are; and two, the higher rank your character is, the more character points you have to spend to use them.

Characters are measured across seven stats: health, defense, strength, agility, intelligence, willpower, and energy. The minimum is 1, the maximum is 9. 2 is considered average for an unpowered human except for energy, which defaults to 1. 1 is below average, 3 is above average, 4 is a blurry line between low-level superhero and Olympian athlete/Mensa member.

Episodes are story arcs - I have a vague outline of how i want the RP to go, in this case, "people who are new to having their superpowers learn to use their powers in a society which regulates them heavily (analogous to gun rights), and also fight crazy evangelical domestic terrorist cult that believe superheros are actually demons". Each episode is a step toward what I'm hoping will be a bigass battle and the gruesome murder of the cult leader. The first episode was your standard "get to know everyone" episode, the second episode was class time, third episode was weekend escapades that ended up in the televised murder of a young super, and we just finished the four episode that fighting a bunch of one-off villains that broke out of prison.

I figured that I should offer my opinion on this, seeing as I may come from a different background and my ideas may be different from many others. I only recently have begun to gm here (just a few months back) with my rp Legacy Pollentia. To TLDR it, it's a superhero academy rp that's less about the classes and more about the 10 separate factions vying for power behind the scenes. I have done rping online on and off for years now, not ever truly committing to a site for too long before being forced out by the inevitable drama which seems to plague me everywhere I go which I always get stuck in the middle of. I even almost left here earlier this year because of it.

However, roleplaying itself is something which I have done practically every day of my life. I may not do it so much online, but I am a tabletop gamemaster first and foremost. I also exercise my roleplaying in my interactions with other human beings through inside jokes and other sorts of games we play together. I am an actor who develops their characters obsessively to the point where I can forget myself and mentally become them. I have always been described as a dreamer, but the extent of how vivid those dreams are may be actively disturbing to some people.

And so we come to the question which you have presented, "What makes a good roleplay?" To answer this I have no trouble at all. Because of how I live and how I see the world I can easily summarize it all in one word. In my opinion, this is what makes a good roleplay.

Intrigue.

That's all, but please allow me to elaborate. When I say intrigue I am not referring to a system of cults trying to outscheme each other, or a group of political factions trying to all seize power. Those can create intrigue, but they themselves are not intrigue. Rather, I define intrigue as what makes your players want to stick around and learn more about the world. It's anything that keeps both them and yourself invested and wanting to keep coming back to these stories. Intrigue is the reason why we do not want these stories to end, without it players lose interest and stop caring. They no longer wish to come back, and then a story dies without ever reaching its conclusion. This is why I spend so much time developing the worlds of my stories. As my players for Legacy Pollentia can attest, it took me months to fully develop the setting. There is so much hidden lore in that rp which most likely my players may never even see, but it is all there for them to discover if they so choose to do so. So in conclusion, I believe that what makes a good rp is the intrigue, for if there isn't any it won't last long.

As a member of Aegis, I completely agree with welian here - I'm almost spoiled by the quality of the critique and limitations on characters, making a lot of other RPs seem worse just by having been a part of it.

For me though, one thing that has always been a big thing is successful RPs I joined has been a community. Be it a very active OOC or a Discord channel/Skype group, they've always had loads of chatter going on between members. Such conversation helps in quite a few ways:

1) People form friendships much more easily. This leads to people wanting to be part of the RP more, so people will be less likely to abandon it, and more likely to post regularly.

2) GM-player communication is much better. People can discuss problems with the RP, solve disputes, and discuss plot and characters, all with greater ease.

3) It's just more fun. I like making friends and I like talking to those new friends. Most of my closest friends on the internet I met through RPing. Being happier in an RP makes the RP, by definition, better.

welian : Thanks for explaining - that's a smart system! I notice also there's a similar stat-point system in place for character traits - how does that work?

I've also tried implementing an episode-esque system before, though I called mine chapters instead! Generally they served a similar purpose, splitting up the story into plot-arcs (although I think I've probably overcongested them normally!) I'd then have within that a set of objectives (stuff like 'defeat the enemies!', or 'find shelter', or 'send your characters off to sleep so we can wake up for the next day!'). Whilst in theory this provides guidance to stop people from ambling, I've actually found people don't really tend to make use of them and sadly I've still had a lot of people complaining that they don't know what to write or what they're supposed to be doing in spite of the fact it's right there for them to read :/

The personality stats are not held to the same standard as ability stats, they're basically there for decoration. Taking the average is a great way to compare characters though. Just silly metrics for fun. We should make an official Asshole bracket...

SkyGinge said:

welian : Thanks for explaining - that's a smart system! I notice also there's a similar stat-point system in place for character traits - how does that work?

I've also tried implementing an episode-esque system before, though I called mine chapters instead! Generally they served a similar purpose, splitting up the story into plot-arcs (although I think I've probably overcongested them normally!) I'd then have within that a set of objectives (stuff like 'defeat the enemies!', or 'find shelter', or 'send your characters off to sleep so we can wake up for the next day!'). Whilst in theory this provides guidance to stop people from ambling, I've actually found people don't really tend to make use of them and sadly I've still had a lot of people complaining that they don't know what to write or what they're supposed to be doing in spite of the fact it's right there for them to read :/

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A way to help this that I saw on a really cool roleplay once ( that admittedly didn't get off the ground but that was more due to the general flakiness of the people on the site as a whole and just a somewhat unfortunate opening date right before the school semester started )

Anyway there was definitely a chapter set up of this thread. And it was also very limited with I believe a very minimal stat system. Basically there were ten characters each a canon character from a comic universe.

Each of these characters were given basic stats ( i forget what they were specifically but similar to what welian described ) and they were all pulled from a specific point in their timeline.

Now the twist that the GM did for this particular roleplay was they asked us to write a "end game" for our character. Some specific act they were meant to do in their original timeline that would be integral to their specific world.

Now the roleplay story was basically that some entity took these ten characters out of their time zones to protect them from the big bad of the roleplay and that they had to complete their "end game" act in order to keep their worlds from going off the rails.

So basically each of our characters was a protagonist of their own story.

Then each chapter of the roleplay was going to be centered on a specific characters story with the rest of the cast playing supporting roles.

The idea being that each person would have a chance for their character to shine while at the same time having some say in the wider story.

So even the person whose "main" story ended in chapter one could stick around for the final battle with the big bad.

The secrets lies in the intuition and supervision of the GM, and his ability to articulate his points, and the aptitude and determination of the players.

A simple framework, but rather monumental in the bigger picture of the RP's lifespan.

The J I really like the idea of having a place to communicate about the RP. Since a lot of people I've RPed with in the past were artsy, We'd draw each others characters or even make music for the game and having a place to post all of that and discuss it kept people excited about the game.

You could always run into drama in an ooc, though...

mangolee said:

The J I really like the idea of having a place to communicate about the RP. Since a lot of people I've RPed with in the past were artsy, We'd draw each others characters or even make music for the game and having a place to post all of that and discuss it kept people excited about the game.

You could always run into drama in an ooc, though...

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Drama is one of the biggest reasons I'm basically a nomadic roleplayer.

mangolee said:

The J I really like the idea of having a place to communicate about the RP. Since a lot of people I've RPed with in the past were artsy, We'd draw each others characters or even make music for the game and having a place to post all of that and discuss it kept people excited about the game.

You could always run into drama in an ooc, though...

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Well, you could always write off a car, you could always die in a plane crash. Both totally worth it for the benefits though.