Viewpoint Hot take: Multi-paragraph posts are unproductive

[Dov]

I've been scouring the 1x1 interest checks and nothing turns me off faster than a minimum paragraph requirement. Rp is, ideally, a back-and-forth, and therefore primarily dialogue. Organic conversations aren't two paragraphs per reply. When people talk, they don't have multiple conversations going at once with the same person, they don't talk for two paragraphs unless they're telling an anecdote, and they don't do eighty things between volleys. Paragraph requirements are ruinous and people who can't reply to conversation without seeing many details re-established probably struggle to communicate with humans.
Multi-paragraph posts are good for establishing new settings, scenes, and characters. Once you've established those things, no part of those things needs to be described again unless something changes or becomes more important.
Thoughts?

 

[LazyDaze]

I've been scouring the 1x1 interest checks and nothing turns me off faster than a minimum paragraph requirement. Rp is, ideally, a back-and-forth, and therefore primarily dialogue. Organic conversations aren't two paragraphs per reply. When people talk, they don't have multiple conversations going at once with the same person, they don't talk for two paragraphs unless they're telling an anecdote, and they don't do eighty things between volleys. Paragraph requirements are ruinous and people who can't reply to conversation without seeing many details re-established probably struggle to communicate with humans.
Multi-paragraph posts are good for establishing new settings, scenes, and characters. Once you've established those things, no part of those things needs to be described again unless something changes or becomes more important.
Thoughts?

I kinda agree but I will explain myself before the pitch forks come in.

I personally write in my spare time, so I can usually write a lot more than I actually have to. Not bragging because I absolutely hate myself for it. (Im sure most ppl here do the same) That said, when I RP, I write TOTALLY different than how I would for a project. Yes this is collaborative writing, but I do this for fun as a hobby. I skim my posts for errors and then leave it to god. It's not that I don't care, but I don't want to take RPN too seriously or else it becomes a job and a chore. I have enough of those. LOL. If I want to do it as a job, I will finish a book and get paid for it. This is why I usually hate when a there is a hard limit for RP's, grammar nazis etc... mainly because I find that most people on this site will easily exceed that if left alone; however, there are moments where it is simply unnecessary to write 2+ paragraphs. What happens is a lot of fluff is spread throughout the post and then burnout eventually happens since I do not have the time or will power to consistently post novel worthy posts. Quantity does not equal quality...and honestly...sometimes my quality will not always be A tier...this is a hobby once again. I for one had my fair share of research papers...last thing I want to do is feel like I'm doing hw. (Don't worry I'm not a garbage poster)

Now, a paragraph (about four sentences) Isn't too hard to manage actually. Some have this, I imagine, to avoid those who would exploit an RP with no rules and give two liners consistently. Short posts give the person replying very little to work with and they are worried about those people. It is akin to telling your crush this amazing story and your crush consistently replies with "Lol". It is hard to keep the conversation going no? So yeah, you don't have to be uber detailed, but including thoughts, body language...etc is what the minimum restrictions are meant to enforce. I also believe it is an attempt to give people incentive to be a bit creative and put just a little more effort in their posts. Again, I believe that most people will be just fine if left alone. I just know that I can write a paragraph easy in most cases, but when someone says I HAVE to...well now it is just constantly in the back of my head like an annoying song. Instead of writing freely, I start writing to satisfy a requirement, and the entire RP becomes less enjoyable for me unless I just push it out of my mind. There is legit an RP where I constantly post pages as a reply and it does not stress me out in slightest, but other RP's with a limit have been difficult for me to adhere to.

Now to your point about dialogue, I totally get you. Most of the time I handle these with collabs through discord or google docs, but things can become redundant to try to feel out a back and forth dialogue with 2 paragraphs for every post. Like even with body language, you're not going to be doing two paragraphs worth of crap consistently, nor would I want to write in such a way that my character constantly has to have a five sentence monologue after studying the contents of a coffee cup he was holding in his left hand that was calloused after working double shifts at a warehouse the past week, comparing said coffee to the void that is space which resembles the hole in his chest brought about by his emotional unintelligence due to a lack of a parental figure all because character B said my shoes don't match my sweater. What is wrong with me...

Nevertheless, I get why they do it. Everyone has their preference, and for them, multi-para writing might be fun for them. Moreover, it is probably a tool to make sure they don't get "lol'd" to death figuratively speaking. I never gm'd so I don't know how common it is on RPN. I just know that personally, I don't need a minimum requirement and (unless I really like the RP) I stay away from RP's with restrictions because of the negative impact it has on my writing. I'm actually more likely to have longer replies if there is no requirement due to the freedom I feel I possess. However, there are simply moments where it is not necessary and I'd also like the freedom to exploit the shit out of those because I'm giving you fire posts 90 percent of the time. Whoa....I wrote a lot...to explain why I should write...less....

 

[Dov]

I was playing with somebody recently who was really big on the long posts and 'needing something to go on'. Our characters were having dinner, the setting was important but not visually interesting, they were sort of on an impromptu date. Her character didn't want to talk, so instead of participating in dialogue, her character spent two paragraphs looking around, thinking about stuff she'd already gone over, and being cagey. She wrote so much but the reality of it was that she'd written a lot of nothing because while her character was sitting there doing nothing and replying with one or two word answers, my character is sitting there watching him doing nothing and trying to come up with things to talk about with somebody who doesn't want to talk. On a date. So my posts got shorter because I had nothing to work with. And she had the gall to berate me about it and complain about having nothing to go on. It was a wreck.

 

[LazyDaze]

I was playing with somebody recently who was really big on the long posts and 'needing something to go on'. Our characters were having dinner, the setting was important but not visually interesting, they were sort of on an impromptu date. Her character didn't want to talk, so instead of participating in dialogue, her character spent two paragraphs looking around, thinking about stuff she'd already gone over, and being cagey. She wrote so much but the reality of it was that she'd written a lot of nothing because while her character was sitting there doing nothing and replying with one or two word answers, my character is sitting there watching him doing nothing and trying to come up with things to talk about with somebody who doesn't want to talk. On a date. So my posts got shorter because I had nothing to work with. And she had the gall to berate me about it and complain about having nothing to go on. It was a wreck.

Oh that sucks, that is one of the quality/quantity debates. While the premise isn’t technically bad. (People are cagey sometimes) it is messed up that u were seen at fault for your character responding accordingly instead of exploring that awkward space through RP. Sometimes a single sentence is a lot more impactful than a paragraph. Wish y’all could have worked that out. After a few posts of that, u have said all u can say. IRL that is a check please moment.

 

[Dov]

Pretty much. It was a shame too, the plot concept was totally fun. The over-arcing conflict was well thought out and had depth that lent itself to a fully formed setting. Great ideas, garbage execution. It was so incongruous. My understanding was that she had come up with the plot and setting, but the one character she contributed was terrible, completely undeveloped, and his name was Silver, blegh.

 

[iGalaxy]

I've had issues with people not agree how much a paragraph is exactly. I find that to be the bigger issue. I expect a paragraph to be between 7-12 sentences. While others expect more or less spending on their roleplay style. I think it's best to just supply a sample in ones post.

 

[Kazami42]

Depends really. I'll list the various RP types, their standard info and premise, and then a short bit for my opinion. Since most here probably know the big four/five extensively, you can merely skip to the end where my opinion and it's reasoning is, separated by a line.
[Edit, RPN keeps screwing up the bottom text with line bit, I'm trying to resolve that. Sorry.
YEET, YEET, DAB. Resolved.]

1x1 usually is two people progressing the story through direct interaction. Therefore, like faster paced messaging systems like discord, one liners are perfectly fine as long as it's pertinent and progresses the storyline or character development. It can range from seven paragraphs [five lines] to quality one liners. Here, a size limit is hysterically bad. It solely depends upon what you can work with, at that very moment, and detailing some body gestures or how your pet snake is traversing your shoulders, under and over the arms, around the head, and even laying on your head like a hat isn't always a viable option. Even if there's a third guy involved, they're usually just a non-playing moderator.

Group RPs dedicated to characters work similarly. So my opinion is equalized. It's easier to meet a paragraph or more since you may be interacting with like five people at once, but a limit is still absolutely unnecessary. It solely would exist to prevent consecutive one liners, and there's better proactive means to deal with them.

Group RPs dedicated to characters but has a guild, faction, or nation focus is the first where this could be justified by default. Due to interacting with other characters in one story line, maybe a NPC in another, talking to one of your own player members, and doing guildy things or slowly building a faction or mercenary band usually always has plenty of content. Even if the players don't provide enough to give them a paragraph, doing anything to develop your individual clan even, usually means a player gets at least four lines out, with the overall post being a paragraph. Thus, it wouldn't matter if a limiter was added or not.

A group RP with a guild, faction, or nation dedication, but character focus is similar. The player has already, or builds up to something fitting or a full country, but rather than characters, they interact through national means like news media. In the nation building category, where this is a sub-genre of it, there can be things like other players playing as part of your own nation, being a vassal, or they could build up a group like protesters, form a mafia, create their own faction to try taking over, etc. Therefore even if they never interact with another player, they get at least a paragraph out. Though they could still make up a character or npc solely to talk or interact with other characters, as if it was a character RP. Essentially, a RP inside the RP. This is where we notice a break from what some sites such as RPN tends to view as normality. Story progression solely through interacting with another player is no longer mandatory, as the role being played is essentially world building, nation building such as detailing personal politics, setting up overseas things, etc. However, I still would advise against a limit, as there is instances of falling below five lines, but not common.

A true nation builder encompasses all styles, all role types, all storylines. For example, one player could focus on national development. This means they may occasionally choose to interact with, or another player visits them to essentially force an interaction, but usually will not initiate it. They would focus on detailing their political agendas, how their infrastructure works, detail the life of the average citizen, they could even make up a character solely to write about their monthly or annual activities, such as "Roberto Shinglelord walked to work, serving their business's cash register yet again. They wrote up the purchases of the day until midnight, then closed to go home." Except you know, far more detailed. While another player could solely progress via interacting with other players, either diplomatically, nationally, or literally making a character and having them live in another's country, either self written, interacting with NPCs from that or one of that nation's player, or a mod or the GM interacting with them. Another one however could do both, developing themselves as well as interacting with others. There's also events such as natural disasters that can appear. Thus literally always, the overall post may be or well beyond a paragraph. Even if the post is segmented, such as a three liner interaction, a one liner directed to lower tier government functions or spending, and a twenty liner about how Roberto Shinglelord rebuilt the economy of the region with his bare hands. Therefore since the chances of falling under a paragraph is pretty much impossible, it is understandable for a limit. I'd actually go against my other opinions, and state that this is the only type of RP that would need a limit, as usually those falling behind usually aren't even interested in participating. It is, or in this case on here, should be understood that it isn't a quick paced role, and players can take as long as they so please to explore whatever they want to write about. It is also one of the more common ones to get the one-liner armies. Yet, still relaxed to not discourage those used to other RP types.
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Thus, my overall opinion is in agreement. Especially due to other and arguably better ways of handling it unless you're too busy or are lazy, the paragraph limit should be relegated purely to a preference point, and not just be standardized and thrown into the join criteria merely because someone doesn't want to do their job. Though there are some cases where it's justifiable to do so, based upon what it's premise/focuses and dedication are. A five player post apocalypse RP where there is constant player and NPC interaction, as well as environmental exploration is one of the types of the above forms of group RPs, that I'd say unless necessary, a hard five line limit should be fine.

Whereas an RP more akin to the stylings of something like Girl's Last Tour; RP edition would have no justification for a limit, let alone it's justification, as environmental storytelling is goddamned difficult to do with one. Even with player interaction, the mere premise alone is basically "explore a dead world with a struggling - dying regional populace", and thus the characters would spend more time being detailed TO the fucked up world, twisted memories, etc, and is more like one of those interactive "movie" games than a normal roleplay. The whole idea is to detail the decay, wrecks, and other bits of scenery, that might at best have a periodical chit-chat post between players and a husk-of-a-man NPC, or themselves. Yes, I've been in some of these. It isn't as boring as it sounds, and it's like exploring a ghost town, but if the ghosts told you the story of the world through "visual" means. There's two genres, the interactive inception type, where you get a flashback-like scene written out by you, based solely on what is around you. Such as standing in the middle of a muddy field, with bent rebar supports, collapsing buildings in the distance, and a helmet. Where you could make up or follow the story of a character you made up based on that helmet alone for the whole RP as you travel the region, though the sometimes literal going back in time, sometimes figurative, sometimes both, but normally the flashback thing doesn't happen but the story could regardless. Then the second one where the GM and mods progress the "story" and while you can interact, such as picking up a clock and turn it over for a mod to invent up a old note on it, you're generally just there to sight see. Like a walking, hiking, and similar simulator but in written form. Imagine those old text adventure games, where you go somewhere by saying "go west" for example of that one in particular.

Also, I have a default negative opinion of 1+ limits. I might prefer one paragraph at least, but it can be ignored if it is necessary/still progresses the storyline. Anything beyond a paragraph, then unless I'm in a RP premise that's like a mix of the above as well as equally heavy interaction-based story which may or may not involve combat, such as say GLT merged with a bloody dark souls or nier game/[or +]book, it's absolutely unnecessary. There's no level of intensive storyline detail for any RP besides the type I just mentioned, that'd require fifty paragraph limits. If I want that, I'd go back and try digitally writing a book. The limit merely unintentionally creates an aura of writing demand that can break a player, and break down their "freedom" over time until they feel that they need to appease it so much, they either take months to respond or they just up and leave.

 

[defenderofberk]

Initially I saw the title and thought I'd completely disagree, but here goes.

Like you said, world building is important as are the characters, so I'm not going to lie. If someone gives me one paragraph or two really short ones (think about three sentences so in total it's like one paragraph), I'll be disappointed. If it's the start post I very well might say I don't think we're compatible, as I like to feel like we're both building a story.

However, I've also done a lot of role plays that contain a lot of talking as I often can't write a good action scene. While it's not reasonable to expect six paragraph novels to be turning up, I still think two paragraphs is pretty obtainable. I love to know a characters inner thoughts and musings, a slight change in their expression or even a repeated habit of theirs.

This probably comes from the fact that I like to post (and have others post) about every two or three days, as otherwise I find I burn out too quick. I'll chat to someone in OOC for most the day, but that doesn't mean I'm also writing the response at the same time.

So in conclusion, although I agree that in some circumstances less is needed, I think two paragraphs isn't a massive amount to ask of another writer, and if they're really stuck I usually like to chat to them about it.

 

[Dov]

defenderofberk
I agree that it's nice to know what's going on in a character's mind. However, there are many times when part of the story is to not know what's going on in a character's mind. In that situation, I think it's appropriate to describe some tell that suggests that there is something on a character's mind that prompts the other character to ask about it. I don't want somebody to go totally overboard with mystery, but it is an element in some situations. I've got this sort of gypsy/puppetmaster character who's cryptic and spooky to a degree that the people around her are annoyed with her and she's completely aware of it. Part of being cryptic is to annoy them. It would detract from any interaction with her to describe what she was thinking at any given time, as well as ruin potential upcoming plot points by spoiling them.

 

[defenderofberk]

defenderofberk
I agree that it's nice to know what's going on in a character's mind. However, there are many times when part of the story is to not know what's going on in a character's mind. In that situation, I think it's appropriate to describe some tell that suggests that there is something on a character's mind that prompts the other character to ask about it. I don't want somebody to go totally overboard with mystery, but it is an element in some situations. I've got this sort of gypsy/puppetmaster character who's cryptic and spooky to a degree that the people around her are annoyed with her and she's completely aware of it. Part of being cryptic is to annoy them. It would detract from any interaction with her to describe what she was thinking at any given time, as well as ruin potential upcoming plot points by spoiling them.

It's true that you don't need to know their thoughts all the time, but it'd be nice to at least get some insight when something important is going on, like if their worst enemy has just walked through the door and has been trying to kill them for two years, or if they're at their friends wedding.

 

[Tove]

Roleplay may be a back and forth collaboration between two people or more, sometimes, but it is also storytelling. So while there is dialogue involved naturally, there are also characters to describe. Their thoughts, feelings, reactions to whatever is going on. Places and so on. At least that's how I feel when I'm writing.

I don't see having minimum paragraph requirements as a bad thing. Hell, looking at my archived RT, I see where I set a minimum at three paragraphs. I'm not looking for some quick back and forth mostly dialogue at any point. I want to tell a story with another person and sure some might argue you can do that in a less than this many paragraphs way but everyone is different. What works for one may not work for another.

 

[Jet]

You're kicking a hornets nest which I approve of, quarantine bored so I'll add a little.

Length requirements are ridiculous, write what you need and nothing more; bolded to stress individuality. There are many schools and some stress efficiency while others copiously describe. Which one is right?

Well what's your pace and tone? Is the described topic important? Are you building or have you built suspense? What's your style and what description length fits you? It's both subjective and circumstantial; there can be no right or wrong. You can leave space for readers to fill the implied or hulk smash dictionaries to dust. Both produce pro writing and thankfully so because flower-prose annoys me like brutalist writing annoys some of you. Here's where the catch is though, with word reqs you aren't acknowledging the subjectivity of writing styles. You punish elite stark writing and reward well espoused dogshit, boosting essay stat-padders; screw that. Sometimes there's only 400 words to write and I'll write the fuck out of those 400. Will I add 100 to meet an arbitrary 500 word requirement? No lol.

This isnt me twisting laziness to virtue, go look at my last few IC posts, three of my last four hover around 1k. That's because I had 1k words worth of content to write, the length makes sense and has killer pace without wasting the reader's time. I have no issue writing long posts but that's not always possible, and here's why + where post minimums break down entirely.

Any form of interaction becomes a fucking joke when posts hit length. Yes I'm indicting a style after talking subjectivity but this isn't about good or bad writing. This is about RP writing limits; you can't write back and forths inside your 1k post because we're trading interactions. Long form when you run everything is fine because you can include back and forths, but it doesn't work here. With length reqs an interaction goes one of two ways.

• The characters think unrealistically. All Joe said was - "I love apple pie" - I do not understand how Jill extrapolated two thought paragraphs from this line. It's only been three seconds IC and she hit eight topics with a childhood flashback. I'm sorry but I can't take this seriously, it's unrealistic and I refuse to write that because we do not think this way. I'm not saying people don't have deep thoughts in the moment but it is simply impossible to cram this much comprehension in a short space. In the moment our thoughts tend to be sharp and quick or quiet as we listen. They are not mental odysseys to another universe. As someone who tries to write realistic humans this is not something I will do. Therefore it's hard for me to fill posts in the same way a "detailed" RPN writer will.

• Worse yet is the Shakespeare student — aka the monologue machine. To fill required space the monologue machine will have their character talk at yours. With epic speeches they will touch on five topics and say about two hundred-fifty words. This again, is pretty unreasonable unless you're in an argument or in depth discussion. My friends and I will do long ass statements to each other while debating or talking deep, but small talk? Yo why are you still talking bro it's been forty seconds straight? Again I'm not gonna write like this, it's inhuman. Yet the "detailed" writers will because they don't care so long as a word req is met.

Hurray, now your pacing is fucking trash. Bonus points for post circles with multiple monologues.

But you know what fixes all of that? Not having a post minimum, it's almost like you can have actual conversations IC without endless filler thought & monologues. For me the average conversational post runs 3-4 hundred words and that's more than enough. I can't imagine adding a couple hundred words to some of these posts it'd be ridiculous.

Also action scenes, can't forget those. Imagine writing five paragraphs to throw a right hook More bonus points if incredible WWE moves or combinations (as if your OC will just stand there as they do this) are invoked because they require many words to describe.

 

[Huntertabbysandshark3]

You're kicking a hornets nest which I approve of, quarantine bored so I'll add a little.

Length requirements are ridiculous, write what you need and nothing more; bolded to stress individuality. There are many schools and some stress efficiency while others copiously describe. Which one is right?

Well what's your pace and tone? Is the described topic important? Are you building or have you built suspense? What's your style and what description length fits you? It's both subjective and circumstantial; there can be no right or wrong. You can leave space for readers to fill the implied or hulk smash dictionaries to dust. Both produce pro writing and thankfully so because flower-prose annoys me like brutalist writing annoys some of you. Here's where the catch is though, with word reqs you aren't acknowledging the subjectivity of writing styles. You punish elite stark writing and reward well espoused dogshit, boosting essay stat-padders; screw that. Sometimes there's only 400 words to write and I'll write the fuck out of those 400. Will I add 100 to meet an arbitrary 500 word requirement? No lol.

This isnt me twisting laziness to virtue, go look at my last few IC posts, three of my last four hover around 1k. That's because I had 1k words worth of content to write, the length makes sense and has killer pace without wasting the reader's time. I have no issue writing long posts but that's not always possible, and here's why + where post minimums break down entirely.

Any form of interaction becomes a fucking joke when posts hit length. Yes I'm indicting a style after talking subjectivity but this isn't about good or bad writing. This is about RP writing limits; you can't write back and forths inside your 1k post because we're trading interactions. Long form when you run everything is fine because you can include back and forths, but it doesn't work here. With length reqs an interaction goes one of two ways.

• The characters think unrealistically. All Joe said was - "I love apple pie" - I do not understand how Jill extrapolated two thought paragraphs from this line. It's only been three seconds IC and she hit eight topics with a childhood flashback. I'm sorry but I can't take this seriously, it's unrealistic and I refuse to write that because we do not think this way. I'm not saying people don't have deep thoughts in the moment but it is simply impossible to cram this much comprehension in a short space. In the moment our thoughts tend to be sharp and quick or quiet as we listen. They are not mental odysseys to another universe. As someone who tries to write realistic humans this is not something I will do. Therefore it's hard for me to fill posts in the same way a "detailed" RPN writer will.
• Worse yet is the Shakespeare student — aka the monologue machine. To fill required space the monologue machine will have their character talk at yours. With epic speeches they will touch on five topics and say about two hundred-fifty words. This again, is pretty unreasonable unless you're in an argument or in depth discussion. My friends and I will do long ass statements to each other while debating or talking deep, but small talk? Yo why are you still talking bro it's been forty seconds straight? Again I'm not gonna write like this, it's inhuman. Yet the "detailed" writers will because they don't care so long as a word req is met.

Hurray, now your pacing is fucking trash. Bonus points for post circles with multiple monologues.

But you know what fixes all of that? Not having a post minimum, it's almost like you can have actual conversations IC without endless filler thought & monologues. For me the average conversational post runs 3-4 hundred words and that's more than enough. I can't imagine adding a couple hundred words to some of these posts it'd be ridiculous.

Also action scenes, can't forget those. Imagine writing five paragraphs to throw a right hook More bonus points if incredible WWE moves or combinations (as if your OC will just stand there as they do this) are invoked because they require many words to describe.

Couldn’t agree more... although personally in thing I tend to over explain thoughts... maybe that what these long writes what you to do think alot

 

[Jet]

Couldn’t agree more... although personally in thing I tend to over explain thoughts... maybe that what these long writes what you to do think alot

Thanks! And imo you haven't over explained in your posts. I wish I had a link to something I could reference lol, but I've seen insane shit where thoughts go on and on and on..... It's like their character is recanting from memory with post-op analysis.

 

[Syntra]

Eh, I believe it is more nuanced than that. Lenght requirements are stupid, yes. You should never write more than you feel the scene needs-- I think everyone would agree with that. At the same time, though, I think it's sort of silly to resort to blanket statements such as 'multi-paragraph posts are unproductive'. It really depends on your personal style. For me, for example, introspection and describing things from my character's POV is what makes roleplaying fun. Through these things, I develop their character, slowly reveal their backstory, play with words, develop themes, etc. etc. Being a wordy writer doesn't necessarily mean producing unnatural sounding dialogue, nor does it mean adding unnecessary fluff. In my eyes, as long as it is either a) fun or b) adds to the characterization, it deserves to be there. As such, the length of your post doesn't really determine whether it works or not-- your skill determines that. There is no 'right' way to write, just different approaches to reaching the same goal.

(And yes, plenty of people do think that lengthy = good, which is a misguided notion. In fact, I believe that you need to be a good writer to pull of a long post, not that writing multi para posts makes you a better writer.)

 

[Idea]

Rp is, ideally, a back-and-forth, and therefore primarily dialogue.

While there is an extent to which I could agree to this- indeed RP is a back-and-forth- that's not all there is to it. Different people want different things out of their roleplay and value those things differently.

A while back I wrote something explaining this idea of a pattern I noticed, between what I call the "simple, casual and detailed mindsets". For each of these categories of length and detail players tend to lean towards a particular set of interests in their roleplay. Simple roleplayers are often content with just having roleplay at all, they are most interested in the "who" of the roleplay, they just want to play their characters without being bogged down by having to think of story or bothering to establish a setting or action... Casual roleplayers, on the other hand, have the biggest focus on narrative. They tend to focus on the "what", the action, not as in fighting, but what is happening, who it is happening to, that kind of more visual stuff that contributes directly to the progession of plot and characters. Lastly, detailed roleplayers care about the "how" and "why" of the narrative elements. The way in which things evolve and evolved carries the same, if not more meaning to them than in which direction they did. They care the most about the atmosphere, worldbuilding, they relish inner monologue and often tend to pay the most attention to the way things are written as much as their content.

If we compare this to a journey, a simple roleplayer doesn't care about reaching their destination, they just care about being in good company, a casual roleplayer always has their eye set on the destination and enjoys the journey through the means of getting there or other activities they do on the way (like racing or hearing music or playing some games), and the detailed roleplayer will be the ones enjoying the view, stopping along the way, enjoying what surrounds them given by the journey.

If we take that analogy, then to a detailed roleplayer who asks for length minimums, the lack of that length is like speeding along the road while someone else is blasting music and the car has courtains on all windows. The things that person enjoys about the journey- the view, the environment, the pleasure of walking at one's own pace- are all taken away.

Everyone, I believe, exists somewhere in the spectrum between the simple, casual and detailed mindsets, and that often dictates the kind of detail and length that comes naturally to a writer, both in the way they write and what they expect to read and value. Of course, none of these automatically confers anyone skill, but what skilled writer is like will have wild variations between the various mindsets.

Storytelling, immersion, and many other things are at the core of roleplay besides just the back and forth, although not every element is of the same importance for every person. Hell, even the back and forth has many ways of splitting: There is back and forth dialogue, but the reaction one can get from inner monologue to something that happened can be argued to be just as much back and forth.

Organic conversations aren't two paragraphs per reply. When people talk, they don't have multiple conversations going at once with the same person, they don't talk for two paragraphs unless they're telling an anecdote, and they don't do eighty things between volleys

Sure, but conversations don't have to be two paragaphs per reply. I realize what you're saying is probably under the premise of what you said at first, that roleplay "should be primarily dialogue" but just to be thorough I am answering under the light of my own premise anyway, and the result of that with some exceptions multi-paragraph replies
1. Are arely mostly composed of dialogue
2. May be written in what is called "fluid time", where individual conversations happen linearly but concorrent conversations are being retroactively altered.
3. Give a lot more light to seemingly minor details. Body language, in particular, is a surprisingly complex thing and as you may imagine can shift quite a bit over the course of a conversation. Plus the more engaged you are in the conversation, the less one tends to be restless and do other stuff, but at the same time their sentences and thoughts go on for longer in such a circumstance.

Plus while, don't get me wrong, organic conversations are an excellent thing to have, depending on the players and their values, it may not actually be a priority. Not every player is brought out of the scene but unrealistic dialogue. In fact, speaking personally, I'm brought out of a scene a lot more by posts I find bland than by any unrealistic conversation structure.

Paragraph requirements are ruinous

Very wrong there. While I do agree, as I think most do, that paragraphs or any other form of length requirement is a far cry from an ideal solution, from my personal experience trying a lot of them, they are the best one we've got. Other solutions are either too vague to keep a standard on, or simply not effective at doing what length requirements are meant to do, giving us who use it players who employ the level of detail and kinds of details we'd like to read and filtering out people who aren't into the idea of a roleplay with that kind of detail.

Paragraph requirements aren't ruinous, but they are a tool for a specific kind of roleplay style and preference. Trying to implement it when that is not the kind of roleplay you're actually looking for is a misguided attempt.

people who can't reply to conversation without seeing many details re-established probably struggle to communicate with humans.

Sure, re-establishing details is pretty poor form. It's just repetition after all, which aside from purposeful thematic use is just bad writing. That said, there is a difference between re-establishing a detail and continuing it or exploring it deeper.

Furthermore, there is also a difference between not being able to reply to a conversation like that, and not wanting to.

Multi-paragraph posts are good for establishing new settings, scenes, and characters. Once you've established those things, no part of those things needs to be described again unless something changes or becomes more important.

Here is the crux of the issue: To someone like myself, who asks for length requirements because of the detail I want, those things are ALWAYS important enough to mention. Always changing in some way, and if they aren't changing, then their not changing is a relevant fact, because it itself has meaning. Sure, I don't need to know that the waiter brought some expensive dish of salted rat to the table in the corner, but it can still add to the setting, tone and atmosphere without having to be establishing something the new. I don't need my partners to go over their character's thought process in why they made the decisions that they made, or understand their perspective on something silly my character just did, but it adds a lot to the experience for me, and without any of that posts feel barren and pointless, like a machine giving outputs to my inputs without ever letting me experience the wonder of what goes on inside it.


- - - - - - -

Final Thoughts:

Length requirements are a tool not an end in of itself. They are an insurance, a filter and a way of expressing our preference for a given level and type of detail that is, by my own experience, the most practical one there is. That said, even those of us who do seriously ask for length requirements are often willing to be flexible so long as our partner is genuinely invested in the kind of RPing we are and it is simply the combination of circumstances that doesn't allow them to meet the requirement. Like any preference and rule, it will not appeal to everyone, nor is it intended to.

You should not use length requirements if
A) You are just doing it to follow a trend or make yourself seem better in some way. Length requirements do not necessarily translate to quality writing, especially if not adressed with a detailed mindset.
B) You are trying to attract as many people as you can. Length requirements create a barrier to entry, they are meant to appeal to a certain kind of people, but that comes at the expense of your appeal to the rest.

If you do use lenth requirements
A) Understand that it will filter out some people.
B) Quantity exists in two ways- Pace and length. Quality vs Quantity is not actually a mere discussion of quality versus length, but of any pair among quality, length and pace against the one left out. If you want quality and length, be prepared to sacrifice some pace.

 

[rae2nerdy]

I think it’s just a style thing. There is a big difference between being forced to vomit up a set number of words if that isn’t your style. It comes across as forced and it makes you the writer resentful.

on the other hand if you told me I could only write a paragraph or two maximum I would probably cry. Because I can only do that if I have literally no ideas for the roleplay and am just grinding through hoping inspiration hits.

So if writing longer posts upsets you than you just aren’t built for those kinds of posts. It doesn’t make them bad or unproductive it just means they aren’t your style.

 

[Dov]

2. May be written in what is called "fluid time", where individual conversations happen linearly but concorrent conversations are being retroactively altered.

I think this is important to establish right off, if you are writing in fluid time. Fluid time is great for action-heavy rps, but I've found it gets very wonky in dialogue-driven sections. And side note, your defense of your argument was heavily predicated on 'yes buts' that were already qualified in the original post. Primarily dialogue, not entirely dialogue, primarily being more than 50%.
On re-establishing details, I said what I mean, I'm talking about people who re-establish details, not people who go into more depth. This is a great example of a short statement saying what I mean and more length making it less correct.
On observing when something changes and not noting when things don't change, a waiter bringing something is a change. The waiter wasn't there a moment ago, the food is now here, the setting has changed, of course you note that. There were people milling around the bar, people not involved in your characters' conversation but who happen to be a part of the setting. If they're still milling around the bar and they're still not a part of our conversation, I don't want to know that one of them is in a red dress and one ordered a beer, that doesn't change the setting or what's happening. If the one who ordered the beer flings it across the room, the setting has changed and it's note-worthy. If one of the characters involved in your interaction suddenly becomes fixated on the person in the red dress, the circumstance has changed in a note-worthy way. Otherwise, those pieces of setting are not worth writing about. It would draw attention to things that are not relevant to what's going on. You tell me a man in a suit with a gold pen in his pocket sat down at the other end of the bar, I'm expecting him to do something, otherwise I don't want to hear about the man in the suit with the gold pen at the other end of the bar.

on the other hand if you told me I could only write a paragraph or two maximum I would probably cry. Because I can only do that if I have literally no ideas for the roleplay and am just grinding through hoping inspiration hits.

So if writing longer posts upsets you than you just aren’t built for those kinds of posts. It doesn’t make them bad or unproductive it just means they aren’t your style.

It's not that long posts upset me, it's that having long posts demanded of me in a context where they don't make sense is stupid. Looking through the 1x1 interest checks, without even having a story going, they have already set a paragraph minimum. I have never seen a maximum, that's crazy talk. The point of my complaint is that there is a time and a place for short posts, that time occurs frequently, and demanding anything else of somebody who's capable of being concise is unproductive. I agree that it's a style thing, and therefore restrictions of any kind on post length are counter productive. Calling for a post length minimum creates the unproductive long posts I'm thinking of. There are entirely productive long posts in certain places, but because of minimum requirements, one is more likely to come across an unproductive one.

 

[rae2nerdy]

But I think (the short posts are needed) mentality is down to style though. None of my roleplays need shorter posts. Even in dialogue heavy posts I’m usually sharing enough information I can easily hit two paragraphs plus just with dialogue alone.

So it really seems like you are just doing a writing style that doesn’t fit with paragraph minimums. I wouldn’t think that makes them stupid it just means your specific style doesn’t fit with them.

But most of my partners have been able to hit the typical (two paragraph min) easily even with dialogue heavy posts. I don’t ask it of them so that could be part of it. But they have never shown any need to shorten a post to a paragraph or less just because people are talking.

 

[Hella Downweather]

Putting my two cents here.

When you talk to someone, there's a whole lot more going on than just...talking. For me, the non verbal cues are as important, if not more than what the other person is saying. Best example if my character says to you :

-I freaking hate you!

No context, simple, straight to the point, you assume my OC hate your OC. But if I write :

He was annoying. He was sooooo annoying. God she couldn't take it anymore, why couldn't he notice it? It wasn't as if she wasn't already completely red, a stuttering mess, only hoping for a bit of his attention. God could she be any more obvious?

-I freaking hate you!

Yeah...she blew it. Again. Why couldn't she just express herself correctly? Avoiding eye contact for the rest of the walk, she lost herself in her bubble...A world where expressing herself was way more simple, a world where she may even.....

Here you learn that my character is flushed, shy, she's avoiding eye contact, she was stuttering before. Sure you could react to what she just said, but you could also be angry that she doesn't look at you, be concerned she seemed a bit flush...and is that fever? For me, I find it frustrating when my partner just...talks. Like two liners, straight to the point. But having a conversation with someone isn't as simple, and since you can't really see the person you're roleplaying with, the inclusion of these clues (that you probably have in your mind already) is pretty important. In real life you don't just react to what someone is saying right? You react to the tone of the voice, the look the eyes, the body language.

Plus, in my opinion, if you are to write about something in a RP, it's because this scene means something to both of your characters. It could be a moment of bonding, a moment of angst where one explains why he has trouble trusting others (and there the monologue is VERY useful), or it could be a silly moment, where someone fails in such a spectacular manner that you have no choice but to laugh and have a bit of pity for them. While I'm guilty of writing more than a fair share of fluffy, slice of life moments, I always write my scenes with an intention, with something I want to show my partner. So for me, going under 300 words is pretty hard usually, and when my partner doesn't reciprocate, it can get frustrating.

Ironically enough, the moments where I write less are action scenes, since I hate controlling the other OC, I can only show the thought process of mine and the movement they take, which limits wayyyy more what I can write. But at the same time...I want to paint a picture, a scene, so it's not just about : oh my OC kicked yours in the face! Which leg did they use, how is the rest of his body affected, why the face, is it because it was left unprotected or is it just that my OC has panicked etc...etc...

For me, seeing a minimum on someone's 1x1 check means I continue reading it. I must admit...I don't really know what a paragraph means for most people in term of length, I'm from the old fanfiction scene, where the word count is what matters most, so I usually precise my word count when contacting someone. That way, we have the same expectations towards our roleplay, and that's a great start to a good partnership!

 

[Dov]

There's gotta be a more effective way to suss out whether or not somebody is a capable writer. I've seen several replies about using requirements as a tool to identify good partners, but good writers ought to be capable of both comprehensive world building posts, engaging inner-monologue, and shorter, more subtle posts that move things along without detracting from the action or setting. I think it's such a loss when so many people who would be great partners who never cross paths because of arbitrary things like this. I've enjoyed this site for the last 4 years because I've been playing with a published author and we never would have met if either of us mentioned some length requirement. The same is true for any good partner I've had for the last decade. It makes me so sad to know there are so many people I could be having fun with if not for the lack of a way to determine somebody is capable besides a length requirement.

 

[rae2nerdy]

There's gotta be a more effective way to suss out whether or not somebody is a capable writer. I've seen several replies about using requirements as a tool to identify good partners, but good writers ought to be capable of both comprehensive world building posts, engaging inner-monologue, and shorter, more subtle posts that move things along without detracting from the action or setting. I think it's such a loss when so many people who would be great partners who never cross paths because of arbitrary things like this. I've enjoyed this site for the last 4 years because I've been playing with a published author and we never would have met if either of us mentioned some length requirement. The same is true for any good partner I've had for the last decade. It makes me so sad to know there are so many people I could be having
fun with if not for the lack of a way to determine somebody is capable besides a length requirement.

Send them a writing sample. That is the alternative that most people agree on.

 

[Dov]

Send them a writing sample. That is the alternative that most people agree on.

Feels like I'd be getting off on the wrong foot to tell somebody 'I will not adhere to your length requirement, but here is a random, lengthy example of my writing, which cannot be indicative of the many short, quality posts you will eventually be receiving.' Unless I were to outline a short post with everything that would have come before it I suppose. But I've never gotten the sense that that's what people want from a writing sample.

 

[rae2nerdy]

Feels like I'd be getting off on the wrong foot to tell somebody 'I will not adhere to your length requirement, but here is a random, lengthy example of my writing, which cannot be indicative of the many short, quality posts you will eventually be receiving.' Unless I were to outline a short post with everything that would have come before it I suppose. But I've never gotten the sense that that's what people want from a writing sample.

Actually plenty of people will take a link or copy of an old roleplay for writing sample. It’s by far more useful than just plopping a random bit of word vomit in their pm. So just ask them “Hey can I send you a link to an old roleplay to show you what I can write?”

A lot of the time they are more interested in how you respond to your partner than just a random word count. Which is why I said it’s a good compromise because you are addressing the core issue without attacking how they express it.

Most of them aren’t going through their actual roleplays with a calculator actively counting out words or paragraphs. They are looking at how their partner responds to their own posts and how much effort is put into those responses. So give them an old roleplay that let’s them see “Hey this person puts in lots of effort consistently and isn’t going to just stick me with doing all the work”. - which is exactly what word minimums is supposed to prevent.

Edit.
I wouldn’t be antagonistic about it either. Don’t call out what you perceive as a silly requirement because then your just an asshole and it wouldn’t matter if you were J.K. Rowling they would hit the back button and rightly so. It’s not for you to yell at someone for how they write their interest check.

But very respectfully saying “Hey can I give you an example of my writing to make sure we are compatible?” Is better all around.

 

[Dov]

I am antagonistic about it because as soon as I see a requirement like that, I either have to assume that they mean it, in which case they're prone to fluff and lack subtlety, or they don't mean it and therefore don't mean what they say in general, which is just as unworkable. I wouldn't jump through hoops to prove myself to somebody like that in either case. If they call for a writing sample in lieu of a post length, I'd have more faith in attempting something with that person. If one must have standards, then have standards that are consistently relevant. If a long-post standard is consistently relevant, let it be for action/setting-heavy genres. Otherwise you're totally doomed to fluff or limited character concepts.