Novice, Intermediate, Advanced

[AHeartlessNobody]

So, I'm not really sure if there is anywhere on the site defining these things. Obviously we all know they stand for writing levels. But, as far as I've seen anyway, its never really said how much or how well you have to write to be under which category. So, I wanted to see what the roleplayers in the community defined these as and which one they tend to see more of or see is, in their opinion, used out of context(or what I mean to say is, having for example a rp labeled intermediate but you feel because of the writing skills of the players it should be labeled novice).


My personal opinion on this is this:


Novice- 1 liners to a paragraph(grammar and punctuation not being very important)


Intermediate- a paragraph to four paragraphs(have good grammar and punctuation, though mistakes are expected)


Advanced- Four paragraphs+(PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE SPELL CHECK AND PROOF READ IF YOU ARE IN THIS SECTION)


Again, that is my opinion on length and grammar.


On which one I think is used out of context much is intermediate. Just out of curiosity(i don't rp in groups much but I like to look around), I would go and click on some of them and get annoyed because people in intermediate will post two to three lines per post. In my opinion I feel that should be in the novice section(again please don't get offended because this is my personal opinion).


The one I feel is most under represented is of course the Advanced sections. I don't really see hardly any advanced rps, and if I do I don't really see anyone signing up for them.


Other people may feel differently about what I've typed, so just post(in a respectful and polite way) if you do. Thank you

 

[Emperor Shadow IV]

To hell with the RP tags to begin with. Just sayin'.

 

[Inquisitor]

I don't speak for everyone when I say it, but I don't think there's any real plan to officially define them. Last consensus I heard from the rest of the staff was that it was up to the player to interpret how they wanted to use the tag. So in that way, no, it isn't obviously used for writing levels; it can be used, at current, with any sort of definition that the Roleplay Author wants it to have.

 

[Ignitedstar]

I think the difference in these three skill levels is less about how much a person can write and more about the depth of what they've written.


The main problem I have with roleplays is the time investment. It takes me a few hours to write a good page. That's how I try to post in roleplays, at least.

 

[JayTee]

This is elitist, designed to artificially segregate people based on arbitrary definitions of "novice" "intermediate" and "advanced", and doesn't do anything to positively contribute to the overall enjoyment of the game, when more than anything else roleplaying is about having fun.


In short, this idea is bad, this idea should not be implemented, and nothing good can come of it if by some freak happenstance it does get implemented.

 

[J0ker]

This is elitist, designed to artificially segregate people based on arbitrary definitions of "novice" "intermediate" and "advanced", and doesn't do anything to positively contribute to the overall enjoyment of the game, when more than anything else roleplaying is about having fun.
In short, this idea is bad, this idea should not be implemented, and nothing good can come of it if by some freak happenstance it does get implemented.

I think your egalitarian views are a bit misfounded. I know it's not the politically correct thing to say, but not all writers are created equal. Everyone on this site is at a different skill level, some being new and amateurish while others are very articulate. The tabs were designed, I believe, to let people group with those of their own skill level. No offense but I have neither the time nor the patience to RP with those far below my skills. That's someone else's prerogative if they want to mentor them.


To answer the OP, I run an Advanced RP myself and I expect someone to pump out at least 3 paragraphs per post. However, I might make an exception for dialogue, though back and forth banter is usually just made into one big post.

 

[Grey]

They're largely meaningless. I had a look around yesterday, and it reminded me of a problem endemic to the site.


Some people are incapable of judging the value of a given piece of writing. Lack of experience, mainly. Many Advanced games suffer the same creative, linguistic, and structural shortfalls as those tagged Novice, and a few of the Novice ones are among the best written things I've seen on the site.


So either take 'em out, or leave 'em undefined, because the resources necessary to define and enforce them are only going to hurt the site and create unnecessary divisions.

 

[Inquisitor]

As I said above, I do not believe there are any intentions of defining them. As of now, we are going to simply let people use them how they wish, to define their game.


Of course, that could change in the future. But I'm not psychic, and I can't see the future.

 

[JayTee]

My biggest qualm with the arbitrary and artificial notion of segregating players by how much they can write is that it enforces the false belief that more text = better writing.


I did freeform RPing for years before I gave up on it and went to dice games, and I rapidly grew tired of reading through four or five paragraphs of meaningless text before I could find something I could actually respond to. My overall reaction to such nonsense was something to the effect of "Why did you bother writing all that crap when you're just going to write a single sentence that I can build off of for my own post?"


When it comes to more text = better writing, I have found the opposite to be true 9 times out of 10.

 

[Grey]

JayTee is bang on with that one, too.

 

[Pine]

Well, yes, the definitions are loose (and I fully anticipated this thread to turn into people arguing that it's wrong for labeling people).


Obviously there is no universal definition on the website for what each one means, as the others have already clarified, but I do think it's useful for giving a general idea of posting expectations.


I do not believe this puts labels on people, per se... think of it as what they want from the role play.


Yes, there are those people that believe in quantity first and end up fluffing their posts excessively (once upon a time, someone straight up told me they were better than me because they always write eleven paragraphs minimum and I don't), but that's not exactly what it means to have an 'advanced' role plays.


I personally go over all spectrums and have participated in role plays that I would consider to belong in one of each of the categories, while creating both intermediate and advanced.


Take the moral high ground and call it elitism, but it's not the same as asking for people to be literate.


It's about the posts and the role play standards, not the people.


With that being said, there are some people that are a lot less experienced and either struggle to embellish their posts with details or they don't care to.


There are also people who struggle with leaving their last response open in such a way that allows someone else's character to respond properly (the two things of which tend to coincide).


Frankly, I don't always want to deal with that in my role plays, and I want the other role players to help along with getting me into the story with beautiful descriptions and having their character relatable.


Then there are other times where I really want a more laid back atmosphere with maybe some questionable things occurring as far as logic.


Either way, it's a little ludicrous to say that everyone writes the same way, though there isn't necessarily one thing that's better than the other.


Now, onto my personal definitions and how I tend to run things.


I never establish a paragraph minimum or anything like that, but I do sometimes like to establish particular guidelines.


Minimum post lengths sometimes tempt people into rambling about the symbolism of a flower their character just stepped on, or they go too deep into thoughts that disrupt the flow of a conversation.


My general rule of thumb is to have a few lines if it's a back and forth conversation, then around three paragraphs when there are actually things to describe (particularly for advanced role plays, because I don't want people to miss out of details or completely leave me out of their character's perspective of things).


If it's a novice role play, posts can be rather to the point and don't need to touch on too many details, such as setting.


As a result, these role plays are generally faster, in turn keeping people interested for being able to actively participate and usually allowing them to last longer.


Intermediate explores more details when it comes down actions and probably establishes the surroundings at least once (I'm actually having a lot more difficulty explaining what I mean with regards to intermediate than I thought I would haha).


Then for advanced, there should be a good understanding of how the flow of things works, with regards to how people tend to talk, interact... just having a good foundation for how things realistically should be.


When it comes to describing things, it's very clear what they're describing and easy to visualize just with word choice, also provide depth and a good look into how their character feels and interacts with the world...


I guess intermediate is just kind of that loosey-goosey middle ground.


That's not to say that novice role plays can't sometimes produce posts that would be fitted for an intermediate role play, or even an advanced role play, but this doesn't happen quite as much, and it's just a lot more laid back.


So... I hope that didn't just make things even more confusing, because I don't feel like I articulated my thoughts all too well. ;w;


/braces self for flaming

 

[J0ker]

Take the moral high ground and call it elitism, but it's not the same as asking for people to be literate.
It's about the posts and the role play standards, not the people.


With that being said, there are some people that are a lot less experienced and either struggle to embellish their posts with details or they don't care to.


There are also people who struggle with leaving their last response open in such a way that allows someone else's character to respond properly (the two things of which tend to coincide).


Frankly, I don't always want to deal with that in my role plays, and I want the other role players to help along with getting me into the story with beautiful descriptions and having their character relatable.


Then there are other times where I really want a more laid back atmosphere with maybe some questionable things occurring as far as logic.


Either way, it's a little ludicrous to say that everyone writes the same way, though there isn't necessarily one thing that's better than the other.

This. People can parade under the banner of political correctness all they want, but some people are simply better writers than others. Why should I have to weed out the unqualified if I can simply slap an Advanced label on my RP and expect better apps? 

My biggest qualm with the arbitrary and artificial notion of segregating players by how much they can write is that it enforces the false belief that more text = better writing.
I did freeform RPing for years before I gave up on it and went to dice games, and I rapidly grew tired of reading through four or five paragraphs of meaningless text before I could find something I could actually respond to. My overall reaction to such nonsense was something to the effect of "Why did you bother writing all that crap when you're just going to write a single sentence that I can build off of for my own post?"


When it comes to more text = better writing, I have found the opposite to be true 9 times out of 10.

I find it rather humorous you cry out about division in freeform RP's then follow up and bash it as rambling prose.

 

[JayTee]

If you think I'm crying out about division, then you're missing my point. My point is that segregating players by how much they can write is a terrible idea because it's building off of the assumption that more text = better writing.


Lets compare and contrast two examples of how more text DOES NOT equal better writing.


The first example is a masterpiece of writing that is commonly attributed to Ernest Hemingway, the six word novel - "For Sale: Baby shoes, never worn."


From those six words and a bit of thinking on their meaning, you can get a wealth of meaning behind them. From the terse phrasing, you can practically feel the joy and excitement of the soon-to-be parents that was crushed under the tragedy of their stillborn child, or even worse, the husband selling the clothing of the child that died along with his wife in childbirth. A truly poignant and tragic story all told in fewer words than this sentence.


Now compare an example that is somewhat more personal. I was once on a freeform RP site that ruled that the winner of a fight was to be decided by the number of words in the post (among other factors, but that was the main condition of victory). Being in a "must win at all costs" state of mind at the time, I started letting go and rambling stream-0f-consciousness style.


I first mentioned mentioned how the weather would give my character an advantage, and from there I drifted in to a monolog about how the weather worked, rayleigh scattering, the effects of light and wind on the construction of buildings, the composition and history of concrete, and how glass was so important in the medical and scientific field.


In short, six paragraphs of mindless, meaningless bullshit utterly unrelated to the topic of the thread.


Because victory was primarily determined by how much you wrote, I won that fight handily and was even complimented by the admin for my "quality" of writing.


By the standards of more text = better writing, my six paragraphs of bullshit are magically a better piece of writing than a six word story that is full of far greater meaning and depth than most people could ever hope to accomplish.


This is complete nonsense.

 

[J0ker]

https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/anecdotal


Besides, your tirade is completely besides the point. Since when did the Novice, Intermediate and Advanced tabs all mean length of writing rather than quality of writing? You're right, any old noob could prattle on about nothing but have little substance to their writing. However, I highly doubt the tabs were designed with that in mind. If I want more "bang for my buck", where do you think I'm more likely to find quality writing, the Novice or Advanced section?

I think the difference in these three skill levels is less about how much a person can write and more about the depth of what they've written.

 

[Inquisitor]

Let's try to refrain from turning this into a battle, folks. This isn't about who's more right. I trust that we can all keep this civil.


I'll simply reiterate that there is no pre-determined purpose; insinuating otherwise is not correct. Their meaning was left vague on purpose.

 

[JayTee]

Going by the OP:

My personal opinion on this is this:


Novice- 1 liners to a paragraph(grammar and punctuation not being very important)


Intermediate- a paragraph to four paragraphs(have good grammar and punctuation, though mistakes are expected)


Advanced- Four paragraphs+(PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE SPELL CHECK AND PROOF READ IF YOU ARE IN THIS SECTION)

And by your own standards:

[QUOTE="THE J0KER]
To answer the OP, I run an Advanced RP myself and I expect someone to pump out at least 3 paragraphs per post. However, I might make an exception for dialogue, though back and forth banter is usually just made into one big post.

[/QUOTE]
Why in the world should someone be forced to pump out 3-4 paragraphs when more than half of that probably wont be relevant and will probably be pointless prose? It's artificial, arbitrary and anti-fun.


EDIT: Also, if you don't want anecdotal evidence, read "My Immortal", the harry potter fanfiction, and tell me that it's somehow "quality" writing compared to the six word story.

 

[J0ker]

Why in the world should someone be forced to pump out 3-4 paragraphs when more than half of that probably wont be relevant and will probably be pointless prose? It's artificial, arbitrary and anti-fun.

I fear you've been in some bizarre RP's if length is absolutely no indication whatsoever of quality. Why are they mutually exclusive? Isn't three paragraphs of quality writing better than three sentences?

 

[Grey]

As a fierce proponent of brevity and focus, I can actually point to some three-line posts that were higher quality than some three-paragraph posts. Quality and quantity are not mutually exclusive, but correlation is not causation.

 

[JayTee]

Compare and contras the six word story with My Immortal. One is six words long and contains a wealth of hidden meaning. The other is over a dozen chapters long, and is regarded is some of the worst writing to ever grace the internet.


So, yes, a properly written three sentence post can be infinitely preferable to a three paragraph story of nonsense and pointless prose.

 

[Pine]

Just because a post contains multiple paragraphs doesn't mean that it's all nonsense.


I don't think Hemmingway is a really fair example, either way.


In my experience, I have never seen a role play post comparable to his purposefully vague style of writing (and if I ever did, I might cry a little).


I understand what you're saying about forcing out prose, but it isn't ALWAYS nonsense, and some role players are able to push out lengthy posts without filling it with nonsensical monologue (that would realistically never cross a character's mind).


SOME people will require minimum paragraph length for posts, but this is certainly not the case all the time.


The Joker even said in his initial post that he may make an exception for dialogue when it came to his rule (and generally in a conversation, that's when people start pumping up their posts with gibberish).

 

[Grey]

Hemingway... vague?


You can't be serious?

 

[Pine]

Ugh... I mean how his writing doesn't lay everything out right in front of you.


please don't make me grab a dictionary for one word that could be misinterpreted

 

[J0ker]

Compare and contras the six word story with My Immortal. One is six words long and contains a wealth of hidden meaning. The other is over a dozen chapters long, and is regarded is some of the worst writing to ever grace the internet.
So, yes, a properly written three sentence post can be infinitely preferable to a three paragraph story of nonsense and pointless prose.

You just want to argue, don't you?


It certainly can, but it won't necessarily be. You might view RPing differently from me, and that's fine, but I see it as collaborative story-telling. Going into the setting and character's background is almost a necessity for me, and it's nonsense to say 3 sentences is always preferable to 3 paragraphs? Perhaps in a dice RP, which is certainly no less valid than freeform, but your bias is clearly showing against freeform.

 

[Grey]

This isn't really the place for that conversation anyway. And it's really personal preference - I practically encourage posts that sophisticated.

 

[Ignitedstar]

I don't think it's fair to be comparing anyone to Hemingway. Why are you guys doing that? Everyone has a different way of doing their writing. Some people like purple prose. Others don't. To call upon Hemingway like he is the epitome of great writing is a fallacy less you mention every other great author who has also done something radically different from the casual writer. And even then, it only proves my point that everyone has a different way of doing their writing.